Specs and leading

[Geikkamir]

Has access to heavier more powerful weaponry and equipment to their disposal. Combat professional, lead the squad if needed.

Neglect of duty: Failure to perform their role to an acceptable standard. For example, a Commander failing to properly organize and ensure his personnel are given orders. Failing to follow proper procedures is also considered Neglect of Duty.

This can be cause for demotion.

Specialists who refuse to lead are breaking marine law, the problem is they can't face any punishment.

This obviously isn't keep these people from rolling spec anyway, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Again, the obvious solution is to just work with what people actually enjoy and separate the two. Either giving people another way to play with the more interesting weapons without having to roll spec, or making spec not second in command.

[Sulaboy]

This obviously isn't keep these people from rolling spec anyway, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Again, the obvious solution is to just work with what people actually enjoy and separate the two. Either giving people another way to play with the more interesting weapons without having to roll spec, or making spec not second in command.

He obvious solution is to rule over the specialists with an iron fist and a rigorous whitelist. Smashing all low RP behavior while it is young.

On a serious note though appeasing bad behavior just puts the quality server down. I'd be fine with a second in command sgt, but what I want is for specialists to be held to a certain degree of honor.

[Steelpoint]

People play Spec because they get access to exclusive, and powerful, weapons that thusly makes them far more powerful and important on the battlefield.

The idea of being a squad leader is not crossing the minds of most Specialist players.

[caleeb101]

Love the idea of there being a radioman. If the Radioman could carry a Radio backpack that always gave their squad comms as long as they were alive, even if comms were down I'd play that role all the time. Being 2IC is nice because you're more prepared for if the 1IC dies and it's just a lot less stressful.

Also, there are a LOT of UNGADUNGA specs and smartgunners who are bald and refuse to take the role of SL (which is why I think we should have a -light- Spec whitelist since they are sometimes crucial to winning a round. The whitelist wouldn't be as harsh as the Commander whitelist. As long as you are a known player and trustworthy, you'd get it).

[Willofol]

Love the idea of there being a radioman. If the Radioman could carry a Radio backpack that always gave their squad comms as long as they were alive, even if comms were down I'd play that role all the time. Being 2IC is nice because you're more prepared for if the 1IC dies and it's just a lot less stressful.

Also, there are a LOT of UNGADUNGA specs and smartgunners who are bald and refuse to take the role of SL (which is why I think we should have a -light- Spec whitelist since they are sometimes crucial to winning a round. The whitelist wouldn't be as harsh as the Commander whitelist. As long as you are a known player and trustworthy, you'd get it).

I get what you're going for with that, but there's a potential issue that leads to where we whitelist everything. I feel like that's something we should try and avoid. Any marine can be crucial. Specs just have slightly fancier gear.

I'm definitely onboard with a radioman/2IC role though.

[Meatshield]

A spec does not win a war. I think medics are far more important than Spec. In fact, I'd never go a medic, because folk get far too salty if you fuck it up. People like specs because they want a fancy gun, they are less important than engineers.

EDIT: I personally like the idea of a radio pack. Couldn't engineers be given a choice of a radio pack? It could be a big decision for an engineer to make, since they would likely have to sacrifice a bit of metal/plasteel for the radio pack. it also means another engineer could potentially pick up the radio pack if the first engineer falls.

[Szunti]

I never play specs or smartgunners. But it's totally understandable that if a player got spec, which is really rare, they want to get the most out of it. And leading is one of the hardest job which needs the most experience. Shooting your special weapon and having fun is much easier. I don't think we want to lock newbies out of that.

Make specs lance corporal, add new sergeants who can lead fireteams/be aSL. They can be just standards with the will to lead.

Or remove req lines and give them vendor and points to get attachments/AP mags for their team. This way someone in the squad would know the equipments of the marines instead of cargo techs, who generally don't care. Plus bonding at round start with NCOs, faster round start.

[BillyBoBBizWorth]

It looks like this has been suggested a few times and is something the people want.I wonder if it could be as simple as the actual SSGT of the said squad, or SO incharge of said squad.Could just apply a leadership type badge (exactly how the Queen uses it for the xenoes) to indicate a assigned marine to take lead if anything should happen to the SSGT.However, having something like this kind of goes directly against the chain of command, as if it really becomes something the devs are looking into to doing, they probably would just readjust the chain of command i'd say.

Even though the leadership badge could possibly be a easier way of doing it.Could also somewhat replace the "issue order" function that SL's have (that are barely used or understood, or even effective?) with something they would actually use, like assigning a lucky little marine to take lead if need be.Could be a cool thing.

Love the idea of there being a radioman.

Pretty sure thats been suggested by players a few times in the suggestions section and infact by myself just recently too, the suggestions were closed/denied

[waswar]

You see this is the problem. The specialist role is supposed to be a second in command, that fact that people only choose it for the gun is unhealthy for he game. If the specialist role was only for a neat gun I'd rather it be removed entirely. While people will still role spec just to be bald and do some shooting it shouldn't be that way, they are a part of the squad like everyone else. People should understand that being a specialist means you will be leading the squad if the SL dies. Heck instead of telling the SO that you refuse to be aSL because gotta shoot those guns, you could focus on making sure the SL doesn't do anything stupid and you'll never need to be aSL.

I mean, that's only the case because the game was set up like that, and there are some cases in which game design may be rather counter-intuitive. Actual specialists are above PFC's but below corporals(at least in the U.S. army, the marine corp doesn't have specialists as far as I know, but scout snipers have to have achieved the rank of Lance Corporal.)

The problem with specialist is that it's a role with five distinct load-outs that are pretty much unlike anything else in the USCM. That means to be a consistent specialist, you have to be knowledgeable and understand how to perform well in at least four of them so that you know what to do depending on what load-outs are available. Due to the nature of some of these roles, such as snipers, I presume that some of them will have gameplay mechanics that would not lend themselves well to leading in the first place.

But leading is another hurdle considering the load-outs issue that inexperienced players would have to deal with, in the current system. I can imagine it being a mess for people who are given a loadout they have no experience in, and are promptly made aSL when they're not appealed by the idea, and are just expected to do it cause lawl, punishments.

The current issue is that Specialists and Smartgunners have the only unique setups in Colonial Marines excepting admin-mandated ERT's. It's no surprise that people would clamor to play the roles that can turn invisible, snipe, set the whole world on fire, and generally do things that no other Marine can do. Now, until marines are given more variety in what they can bring into battle, and what options are available to them, you will continue to have people clamoring to play Specialists because of their unique gameplay, whilst having no interest in the leadership/roleplay aspect of the specialist role.

The specialist rank as sergeant is also wholly inconvenient, when so many people want to experience the unique aspects of the role, those who would like to back up the SL as a second-in-command have to pit themselves to the, as iterated above, specific loadouts, and fighting for the spot with many others who have no intention of roleplaying as secondary leadership.

Having an alternative role as Sergeant would mitigate this issue, as a more mundane marine with heightened responsibilities revolving around their rank instead of their weapon would allow people who enjoy leadership and roleplay to clamor for that role instead, subsidizing squads with better leadership conditions, and allowing the swathes of individuals who like distinct weapons to enjoy them exclusively, instead of having to worry about leading, which they don't like to do anyway. It would also allow those who want to build their way up to SL by understanding the mechanics worry about the responsibilities of SL more specifically, and not have to worry about their load-out.

The whole system for chain of squad command is just wack, though.

2: Sergeant - It seems that the general consensus don't want to lead, and just like the special weapons. Some load-outs aren't intuitive to leading with.
3: Corporals - They can lead, but if you're short on medics, have many wounded, or need to build or maintain fortifications, taking them out of their assigned duties might actually be detrimental.
4: Lance Corporals - The Smartgunners have a relatively simple gameplay style. I'm surprized they're not higher in rank, but it does make some sense considering they're mostly support, and should remain in the middle of the pack, rather than the front lines.
5: Private First Classes - Don't understand why SO's don't take volunteers from this rank more often, rather than immediately picking the reluctant Corporals and the like.

[SlavishCircle]

Specialists and Smartgunners should be forced to suck it up. If you want to be a slightly more important Squad Marine, you should accept leadership when things come down to the wire.

Honestly, Smartgunners should be Corporals and Engineers/Medics should be Lance Corporals so they can actually be the third-in-command.

The Smartgunners have a relatively simple gameplay style. I'm surprized they're not higher in rank, but it does make some sense considering they're mostly support, and should remain in the middle of the pack, rather than the front lines.

These two posts are hitting on some similar points. Thinking of the Squad structure in it's entirety, there are many many PFCs, a handful of Engineers and Medics, but only ever one Squad Leader, Specialist, and Smartgunner at a given time, and that's due to the unique roles they fulfill to have the squad function -- SL is meant to communicate with Command and rally the squad in a given direction to complete their objectives, the Specialist is -- obviously -- a specialized combatant with a flexible kit to assist the squad in achieving more niche goals (A sniper kit to engage in long-range suppressive fire, for example), And the Smartgunner is a trained soldier with unique equipment meant to support the front lines reach their goals while in direct combat.

Speaking from personal experience, if the Specialist is unable to fulfill the duties necessary to be aSL, the Smartgunner is usually the second-best pick to lead over an Engineer or Medic, given their natural orientation within the squad -- the squad is suppose to operate around and in front of the Smartgunner to achieve the highest combat effectiveness. Additionally, within the setting, Smartgunners are suppose to be seasoned military personnel, with additional training to handle the equipment, and knowledge of tactics to manage assault groups (Read: I know I can't FF your ass, so stand in front of me, you idiots).

Conversely, the Medics and Engineers are pluralized within a squad to achieve their ends -- either to attend to the wounded, (de)construct fortifications, reactivate power or tcomms, and so on, depending on the scenario or map. When the situation happens that the SL and Specialist aren't able to fulfill their duties, these guys have their hands full with other non-leading tasks -- The medics probably have their hands full trying to get the SL or Specialist back to life or onto the Almayer, and the Engineers... well, as an admission of my own weakness as a player, the duties and skills used to be an effective Engineer on CM is something beyond my grasp at this time, but I imagine it's something akin to frantically swinging a wrench to get something fixed/working.

Overall, I think a potential resolution to filling in this leadership gap may be resolved by re-evaluating the Smartgunner's position and responsibilities within a squad. Adding a new role to act as the SL's 2iC seems like it's stepping on the toes of a lot of roles, as is, without adding much in the way of actual duties.

[Jeser]

I was bringing up this topic occasionally since Specs were added. For me, it's really difficult to lead a squad, because Spec role requires "Seek and kill" mindset, while SL mindset is "Look, coordinate, command". They are completely different. And, considering I prefer to play sniper, it's almost impossible to be both a good sniper and a good SL, because, as a sniper, I more often watch over flanks and the only time I can succesfully combine those duties is when I'm leading FoB or Reserve squad.

P.S. Forgot to mention, that being a good and really useful SL means carrying a lot of valuable things important to squad: Binos, Beacons, detector and so on. Spec has his own stuff to carry and barely can take all he needs. I don't think there are specs who gear up thinking "Okay, I won't take these two grenades/rockets, because my SL probably will die in first 15 minutes and I'll need to carry his beacons and binocular".

Radio-man all the way!

[SlavishCircle]

I'm working on making an SG guide ATM, and one the major divergent points in the build process I'm laying out is whether you're investing in the ability to deal damage or to support the squad. There are some major failings with the SG working as an aSL, but with the right bit of construction, you can take on the SL's gear without much issue.

With what I do have compiled for the aforementioned guide, they'd only either need a good belt storage item or maybe an exclusive webbing to SGs that would make up for the utter lack of a backpack -- along with potentially some skill tweaks that make sense for being more trained than a PFC and capable soldiers.