MPs have become antags?

[Bancrose]

I am literally trying to put as much distance between me and the MP's AT ALL TIMES.

Its one of the main reasons I barely play CO lately. MP's have just been FORCING themselves onto me while I'm trying to play the round as a CO.

But you can never avoid the cloak and dagger politics of the Almayer MP Players and Command staff. Not to mention the CL is mostly or always involved.

[Nantei]

If you want this situation to stop escalating then both sides need to chill out.

COs/Marines need to stop trying to trap/kill MPs

MPs need to stop trying to 'get' COs.

I don't really think it's the marines fault here. The marines are doing it in retaliation. It's not really hard, if you aren't being a complete prick as MP, people won't try and trap you or murder you. The issue is CMP can FORCE you to be a prick, or be a prick in his own right, and this is why we see good MP's like Juilo get lynched.

Honestly, if the CMP was being a dick and he gets lynched, and I am an MP? I would just back off and let it happen. Make sure they don't decap him, but otherwise getting involved without riot gear is suicide.

[Royal Griffon]

If you want this situation to stop escalating then both sides need to chill out.

COs/Marines need to stop trying to trap/kill MPs

MPs need to stop trying to 'get' COs.

well tbh here, and this is coming from an old CMP/MP main
the "good" guy CMPs and MPs
we are rare, we basically got ran off due to how much stupidity we had to deal with or like me, kind of got pressured off that role
so who's left?
most of the "antag" CMPs
The Jack Knight's
The CMPs who don't give a SINGLE shit about anything else besides, "How many people can I put into cells at one time and how can I piss off as many marines and command staff as unhumanly possible."
I'm not unexperienced when it comes to this as well. Most of the "good guys" who are MPs have also been ran of REGULAR MPs just due to people like Jack Knight. We can feel our reputation being butchered just by following that asshole's orders, he meta targets SL's, he meta targets CO's, and he targets ANYONE who he can POSSIBLY EVER get arrested, how he has NOT received a jobban is BYOND me.
But people like that, who make us good MPs have basically no reputation and who charge stack as much as humanly possible to perma'able for minor offenses (yes Jack Knight and a few others do indeed find a way to do that 70% of the time) make us sick and tired.
Not to mention how broken and in DESPERATE need of an update marine law is.
if I'm correct, marine law still tells you to set the timer and undress the marine, but only set the timer for if the marine is in the cell...which means it was for an older version of the brig, yet is STILL to be updated. Not to mention the massive amounts of holes in the laws. No offense to whoever wrote it, but I think it can use a few updates and edits to make it more...modern-esc.

[Bath Salts Addict]

It's one thing to be a "strict" MP, but there comes a point where you transcend that invisible line and it just becomes a complete and utter contempt and disregard for your fellow human beings as you set out to effectively lock them out of the round for the slightest provocation. This is especially true when you get MPs that stack charges while grasping at straws for any justification they can get in the event they get bwoinked, and even if do admins find them at fault, they usually just give them a slap on the wrist and let the whole scenario carry out as is without ordering the MP to release the victim.

[spookydonut]

Retaliating is just going to cause this to spin even more out of control.

MPs may need to chill out more than anyone else here but they aren't solely to blame.

I think we can all agree there are clearly people trying to agitate and cause issues but if everyone is contributing to the chaos then it's hard to identify who they are.

[Martzin]

Retaliating is just going to cause this to spin even more out of control.

MPs may need to chill out more than anyone else here but they aren't solely to blame.

I think we can all agree there are clearly people trying to agitate and cause issues but if everyone is contributing to the chaos then it's hard to identify who they are.

MPs should know when someone is trying to bait them into doing stupid shit. And agitators don't cause MP usurps of the Command Chain.

[Davidchan]

MPs in general need to calm the hell down. Marine Law needs to be condenses and made sensible, MPs in general need their rank toned down (what the hell kind of top heavy crew has E-6s doing an E-2's job?) and there definitely needs to be a lot more red tape MPs need to go through in order hold a person for more than 10 minutes over non-issues like someone hopping the Req barriers or a verbal squabble on squad comms.

At this point I'd honestly rather see MPs and CMP go away entirely and admins just hitting people with daybans for actual serious marine law violations and just have SLs, Specs and other NCOs deal with disciplinary issues in their squad (You know, like any real life military unit would do) with things being taken up the chain for more serious offenses. MPs should only be getting involved in UCMJ level misconduct, not because a PFC told a corporal to fuck off.

[Hughgent]

[Casany]

MPs are just gonna keep being shit until something is done. The majority (as shown through multiple threads and reports) don’t care about the opinion people have on them. Some really bad CMP players just laugh when the ruin people’s rounds. And they can get away with what basically amounts to soft griefing someone. I’m all for things that MATTER taken care of (ACTUAL theft, murder cases, etc) but when you have a situation where a medic doesn’t sit down in briefing and he’s arrested for it, that’s too fucking far.

And the worst part is that I have yet to see anything down about it by the staff. No banning of bad MP or CMP players, no change of laws or rules to stop them from being shit. In fact, te admins constantly validate MPs and CMPs on by using Provost Marshall messages, validating any complaint an MP could have. Does the staff team even fuckin care at this point? It’s frustraiting when people have been calling for change, something as simple as taking away MPs OOC protection. It makes sense if it takes time to fix marine law or the rules, but simple shit that could easily curb this would be jobbanning offending players instead of just letting them fuck up rounds.

I’m tempted I say it’s staff bias, since the majority of shit MP and CMP players I’ve seen have been staff. And thus far there’s been nothing put out that shows in any way that my belief isn’t validated. I’ll most likely get the most blanket response to this, things like “We’re working on it” “We’re not paid, we do this for free” etc, and while maybe those excuses would work for a code change this is not that. Until something is done to rectify the obvious issue players are having, I see no reason not to believe that the staff even care about the issue.

[Tristan63]

This has actually been an issue long before the CMP was introduced. The MPs have always been untouchable by regulars, you can't resist at all and if you do you need 5+ players backing and a good reason why (AKA mutiny).

[spookydonut]

It's hard to do anything about mps when players are just straight up griefing mps or blowing a simple "mp did bad, gets jobban" situation into a 3day log dive of everything that happened in a round to work out who started it and who broke the rules.

Just chill out, use adminhelp, and have faith in the staff to deal with the situation.

The alternative is you contribute to the chaos and wind up banned.

[CABAL]

They won't calm down, becouse there is nothing on the ship after first 30 minutes to do for them to "discharge" emotions. All they do then is sitting on their asses and wait for call, becouse maybe CL got something antagonistic to do, but was unable to go quietly. They have no mission, they have no purpose. Imagine "standard" SS13 server that constantly runs "Extended" and with strict OOC rules to not commit crimes besides minor things like vandalism, or painting graffiti. Security would turn Shitcurity in no-time.

MP role gives power, but there is no field to use this power. Boredom might be a major reason for every escalation.

Shipside soft antags are mandatory. I would even go with somebody's' idea from "Rahl's Million Dollar Question - Marine Law": Captured CLF, UPP soldiers, rogue colonists, secret W-Y agent, or MT saboteur(Or even rarerly spawn MT with actual sabotage objective). More RP than Antag role with one objective: Free yourself. There exist several ways to accomplish it like being hired by CL for the Company, being hired by USCM for having a spy, hijacking escape pod, hiding somewhere on the ship, going planetside etc. CMP might want to interrogate them, MP's might want to try, or something. CL might need to free them, CE might be blackmailed to try(Of course they have important stuff to do, so he should be instructed OOC'ly to not trying to do it at all cost neglecting that stuff), ARES might get "glitch" and "accidentally" open all doors to hangar from cell when MP's are not around etc. Guns outside preps are hard to get, so I don't see much shooting and if MP with superiour CQC and melle skills gets his ass kicked, he deserved it.

Drugs and alcohol spawned radomly around the ship, something like that.

[Blade2000Br]

Since a lot of people here said that the MPs are finding valid ways to brig the CO and CIC staff, I decided to join as CO to see if those allegations are true.

Yesterday I joined CO at the start of the round. I played like a Normal CO would, greeting my CIC team, talking with all, getting briefing ready and whatnot. I went to Briefing, told Req to close down so briefing could be made, all the typical stuff. In no moment I got questioned by the MPs, in no moment till the end of briefing the CMP walked towards me to question anything. Probably because I was not breaking the law, go figure.

The round proceeded well enough, marines fighting back and forth, with an extreme spin that resulted in marine victory with a well-placed Tank flank and a synth well placed when I told him to study the dead bodies of the Xenos. it was around 13:30 when we were annihilating the Xenos. Guess what happened?

The entire engineering team was arrested for neglecting their duties, reactors all broken, OB cannon unloaded, No one repairing the Tank. And an RO that apparently wanted to legalize beating of a certain player because he "steal" stuff from him. He even had a form and everything.
The CMP actually prevented me from BEing the CE when we needed the OB and she was playing with a bar that she made instead of doing her job. Well, I would never expect that a CMP actually prevented someone from getting BEd! I thought they were soft griefers that wanted to ruin marine's round...

In conclusion: I never got abused by the CMP or MPs because I didn't break the goddam law. I didn't get rule lawyered that I was breaking the law because I didn't do anything to GET me brigged. So this thing about "COs are being brigged for X or Y" Should stop. If you don't want to get brigged, then perhaps you shouldn't break the law and wear god dam Pajamas when making briefing.

Of course, there are bad apples, but hell, any job in Almayer will have their bad apples. If they are acting wrong, ahelp and staff will deal with them. Now, don't act like that only MPs are to blame, because if you go without provoking the MPs (or do it where they can't see) you won't get brigged. It's just common sense.

[Gnorse]

-snip-

Just because it didn't happen to you in one round doesn't mean it didn't happen to other people in other rounds.

to be fair, that pijama thing was lowRP and the MPs did well, but this whole thing is just a mess.
also, "don't break the law" isn't a valid arguement because if MPs wanted to arrest you, they could pretzel marine law so hard that they would be able to arrest you for breathing.
marine law is so shallow and vague that if an MP wanted to arrest you, you WILL be arrested.

[CABAL]

One simple, humble, little question: You were random name CO, or your standard character? I belive "Server Cool Kids" don't get the same treatment. To be safe you have to be bald, unknown PFC, or "old" well known character.

[Mann handle]

Which thread are we trying to keep this to at this point?

This one or this one?

My statements on the matter are in the other thread but if I'm gonna sum my view up it's this. MPs are trying to become the next Jack Knight or are actively aiming for big game, pretzeling things to achieve it. It sucks and generally speaking I think they need all protections removed and allow the marine's side to self regulate. Also to remove the rule in place that forces the MPs to follow the law at all times.

this is all in my post on the other thread, in the meantime I'll continue to steal the CMP role and actively attempt to cut down on some of the memey shit people have managed to make.

[Nantei]

Frankly I wouldn't mind MP and CMP stuff so much if staff just did anything about it when they were blatantly griefing. Are you really going to tell me that Jack Knight coming to my prep and threatening to brig me for an unsecured flamer, of which is actually secured, isn't grief if he does it? It's blatantly validhunting. There's no logical reason to do that, and he literally does not have to do it, he is under no obligation to make a fuss about it. He chooses to. Many CMP's do this, and the fact that staff backs them up is what really irks me about it. I don't care if it's 'technically' correct, many things are. We shouldn't care about if it is technically correct, we should care about the intent and effect, and the intent is blatantly malicious. Dancing around the rules is just as bad, if not worse, than breaking them; stop enabling it.

[davidofmk771]

You know, I'm starting to think this all loops back into the fact that people really just hate being put in time out. It's boring and leaves you absolutely nothing constructive to do. Either walk away and do something else OOCly, talk with the 'general comms club', or whine about your arrest. None of these options are particularly fun or interesting, and the latter often just makes the situation worse.

I think adding NJPs was a good start. I haven't seen a single one invoked yet, but I think it's a good idea. I think it just has one problem:

It only addresses crimes worthy of 10 minutes or less in the brig. Often times, these are not the arrests that are making people upset. It's the stacking of resisting arrest and standard crimes, along with maximum sentencing, that leads to people having 30 and 40 minute long sentences. Now that's about a third of a fairly short round here. People aren't enjoying that long span of time, planned on playing a video game, having to be used for anything but. Especially on a game who's gameplay relies so much on how many people are playing.

I'm not so sure how the staff felt about my suggestion for non-lethal corporal punishment as a possible absolvement of crimes factoring into over 30-40 minutes in our last thread about MPs, but now more than ever I believe that it can serve as a useful tool in allowing player to actually play without forcing the marines to comply to marine laws under penalty of ban or forcing the MPs to simply ignore the law ICly.

I understand there's a very big elephant in the room regarding the whole concept, and it is questionable how some people's egos would react, but I think a well written section is marine law about it could ultimately serve to giving players a more ICly and OOCly interesting way of paying for their crimes than '2x2 box you arent allowed out of for half an hour'.

At this point I'd honestly rather see MPs and CMP go away entirely and admins just hitting people with daybans for actual serious marine law violations and just have SLs, Specs and other NCOs deal with disciplinary issues in their squad (You know, like any real life military unit would do) with things being taken up the chain for more serious offenses. MPs should only be getting involved in UCMJ level misconduct, not because a PFC told a corporal to fuck off.

This is mainly what I want to avoid. I like the MP role, and I like the system of marine law. They can be fun, but there are just some issues in the core gameplay and a few specific peoples personal grievances with one another. I do however, like your idea of allowing higher-ranked squaddies to smack down their subordinates without facing charges (unless of course they go too far). I also think that in that case, a new charge with heftier punishments than standard assault should apply for assaulting a ranked superior.

[TexasTwoStep]

MP's don't go after CO's per-say.

It is Commander whitelisted individuals that try to swing their dick out too hard across the entire function of the USS Almayer who end up getting involved with the MP's.

MP's are a must now with our condensed rule-set; more than ever they're present to be an asset to the Operation, not to hinder it: Sometimes however, when a Specialist has a foul mouth and is Insubordinate - even though they may be one of the last remaining Specialists alive and have to come back on to the Almayer for treatment and get arrested - that's just fucking karma.

There's no hidden code by MP Mains to fuck with other people - especially Olddies, sometimes Marines push the boundaries - too far, and continue to do that every round.

[NoahKirchner]

snip

If everyone played the exact same CO every single round, it would be boring. Little things like a CO eating breakfast in their pajamas (Not even giving briefing!) or minor other differences in the usual flow of things is what makes CO moments memorable and interesting. I'm not advocating for COs to only wear pajamas, and the situation I'm referencing isn't even that happening, it's pre-briefing breakfast. It also isn't just an issue of the CO being arrested, though that is certainly an issue, there's also a problem of MPs and CMPs only being accountable OOCly for their actions when a lot of things can be justified as the morally correct option ICly which, realistically, nobody would ever enforce. MPs only being able to be dealt with OOCly just makes for frustration when dealing with them in an IC situation because there's nothing you can do ICly to punish them and resorting to OOC punishments for IC issues is then being a dick to the MP player.

MP's don't go after CO's per-say.

It is Commander whitelisted individuals that try to swing their dick out too hard across the entire function of the USS Almayer who end up getting involved with the MP's.

MP's are a must now with our condensed rule-set; more than ever they're present to be an asset to the Operation, not to hinder it: Sometimes however, when a Specialist has a foul mouth and is Insubordinate - even though they may be one of the last remaining Specialists alive and have to come back on to the Almayer for treatment and get arrested - that's just fucking karma.

There's no hidden code by MP Mains to fuck with other people - especially Olddies, sometimes Marines push the boundaries - too far, and continue to do that every round.

I would disagree. The rounds that I've seen the CO been arrested have been when they do the opposite of swinging their dick too hard, at least at first, and they generally get arrested for things like eating breakfast in their pajamas. The more recent situations are a bit more ambiguous in that regard, but the situations which started the entire discussion were certainly not an issue of COs abusing their powers.

-

I will agree that MPs are necessary with the condensed ruleset, but I will disagree with their current usage. The MPs and, to a lesser degree, the CMP should really be the enforcement arm of the CO, enforcing marine law and taking orders in every other situation from the CO to ensure that the marines are following his orders, et cetera. The CMP should, ideally, fill the role of an HoS on other servers and be a subordinate of the CO in every other matter aside from where the order given would breach marine law. As it stands right now, the CMP is basically untouchable by IC means, and the only way to deal with a minor bit of backtalk from a CMP or an MP is to start a shitfest by sending an ahelp about it when the situation could certainly be handled ICly.

Frankly, I'd like to see the MP marine law rule go away and be replaced by more methods to deal with CMPs and MPs who break it, including battlefield executions (Which if abused certainly warrant a removal of whitelist), a CO fax machine to send a message to the Provost, et cetera. If an MP consistently breaks marine law every round, that would obviously warrant a jobban as is seen by other roles. If you play CE every round and do nothing but run around and mess with MPs or play PO and all you do is play basketball and slip people, you're probably going to get jobbanned. This would allow the situations with MPs and CMPs to develop organically and resolve organically instead of requiring admin intervention, and would also leave the MPs and CMPs more accountable for the decisions that they make and how it effects the round. The CO is the head of the ship and should be able to deal with all of the crew aboard his ship.


As far as MP mains fucking with specific people, I'd agree and disagree. I don't necessarily think they're looking for specific people, I just think they're insanely overzealous in their enforcement of marine law and these people stick out more often, but marine law is an issue for another day and is still being tweaked by SirLordington. They also have absolutely nothing else to do but overzealously enforce marine law, which really doesn't make sense in a server like CM. Most stations require security because security deals with the antag, it keeps the peace where players are stationside all round and thus can get into more trouble, and you can also deal with them ICly. On CM, in a perfect round, the MPs would do absolutely nothing all round, I believe that this shows their role to be fundamentally broken. A perfect vanilla SS13 round would see the security dealing with an antagonist of some sort because it's generally how the game's supposed to be played. They really don't fit here, and either need a few minor shipside antagonists to deal with or another role to carry out that isn't looking for the first person to accidentally not address their SO properly so that they can bring down their swift hammer of justice upon the puny mortal.

-

It's hard to do anything about mps when players are just straight up griefing mps or blowing a simple "mp did bad, gets jobban" situation into a 3day log dive of everything that happened in a round to work out who started it and who broke the rules.

Just chill out, use adminhelp, and have faith in the staff to deal with the situation.

The alternative is you contribute to the chaos and wind up banned.

To rely on staff for situations with IC context and repercussions is an antithesis to roleplay. To adminhelp an MP who breaks every minor law, like insubordination, removes any depth of character from people who play MP and turns them into mindless cyborgs hellbent on enforcing their lawset instead of human characters with emotions, realistic drives and a sense of empathy for their fellow man, because to show any of that will get them jobbanned. They cannot backtalk their CMP or their CO, or even an ensign without the punishment either being overlooked or being a jobban. That is kind of ridiculous, and while I'm certain that staff could deal with it, I'm not sure I want them to deal with anything but situations that border on griefing in regards to the MPs, and as I said above, IC systems of handling IC interactions are necessary to keep any semblance of roleplay when dealing with the military police. Even HRP servers don't have rules like this in regards to enforcement of space law because rules (to an extent) are anathema to roleplay and I think we've seen that a lot of the other rules that were trimmed down were unnecessary. I think the same stands here and would heighten the experience of anybody dealing with MPs.

-

They won't calm down, becouse there is nothing on the ship after first 30 minutes to do for them to "discharge" emotions. All they do then is sitting on their asses and wait for call, becouse maybe CL got something antagonistic to do, but was unable to go quietly. They have no mission, they have no purpose. Imagine "standard" SS13 server that constantly runs "Extended" and with strict OOC rules to not commit crimes besides minor things like vandalism, or painting graffiti. Security would turn Shitcurity in no-time.

MP role gives power, but there is no field to use this power. Boredom might be a major reason for every escalation.

Shipside soft antags are mandatory. I would even go with somebody's' idea from "Rahl's Million Dollar Question - Marine Law": Captured CLF, UPP soldiers, rogue colonists, secret W-Y agent, or MT saboteur(Or even rarerly spawn MT with actual sabotage objective). More RP than Antag role with one objective: Free yourself. There exist several ways to accomplish it like being hired by CL for the Company, being hired by USCM for having a spy, hijacking escape pod, hiding somewhere on the ship, going planetside etc. CMP might want to interrogate them, MP's might want to try, or something. CL might need to free them, CE might be blackmailed to try(Of course they have important stuff to do, so he should be instructed OOC'ly to not trying to do it at all cost neglecting that stuff), ARES might get "glitch" and "accidentally" open all doors to hangar from cell when MP's are not around etc. Guns outside preps are hard to get, so I don't see much shooting and if MP with superiour CQC and melle skills gets his ass kicked, he deserved it.

Drugs and alcohol spawned radomly around the ship, something like that.

I would agree that soft antag roles are necessary to keep MP players entertained. Right now it really is sitting on your ass after the first drop and waiting for someone to accidentally hit a window with a backpack so you can go yaga yeet that motherfucker right into the brig.

I think a way to deal with antags on the ship having shootouts is to put in their objectives to NOT GET CAUGHT and also to NOT KILL ANYONE, DAMMIT! (It must be in caps too, for dramatic effect.) The UPP and the UA aren't in open conflict so sending a spy onto their ship and having him assassinate the CIC would certainly cause a diplomatic incident, so traitor objectives should be limited to stuff like "Steal the CMO's manifest" or "Release the captured CLF POW and get him to an escape pod". You can give them a traitor uplink with utilities like C4 and radio encryption keys and some way to nonlethally disable a person. It'd be fun for everyone involved, and would give the researcher and MTs something to do as well.

[Retrokinesis]

Frankly I wouldn't mind MP and CMP stuff so much if staff just did anything about it when they were blatantly griefing. Are you really going to tell me that Jack Knight coming to my prep and threatening to brig me for an unsecured flamer, of which is actually secured, isn't grief if he does it? It's blatantly validhunting. There's no logical reason to do that, and he literally does not have to do it, he is under no obligation to make a fuss about it. He chooses to. Many CMP's do this, and the fact that staff backs them up is what really irks me about it. I don't care if it's 'technically' correct, many things are. We shouldn't care about if it is technically correct, we should care about the intent and effect, and the intent is blatantly malicious. Dancing around the rules is just as bad, if not worse, than breaking them; stop enabling it.

Actually, it's not even technically correct anymore. Unsecured Equipment isn't part of marine law now and the closest equivalent, Improper Equipment Usage, only refers to discharging them or having them unholstered outside prep. So yes, if Jack Knight comes into your prep and tries to arrest you for having a flamer on the floor you should ahelp it because he is breaking marine law and that's a bannable offense for an MP.

I feel like a lot of the overwhelming, murderous hate people have for MPs is based on the old marine law. We really haven't had the new one long enough for it to sink in yet but it's definitely a massive improvement over the previous one and puts us in a much better place to fix issues as they come up because the foundation isn't fundamentally rotted anymore.

I would agree that soft antag roles are necessary to keep MP players entertained. Right now it really is sitting on your ass after the first drop and waiting for someone to accidentally hit a window with a backpack so you can go yaga yeet that motherfucker right into the brig.

I think a way to deal with antags on the ship having shootouts is to put in their objectives to NOT GET CAUGHT and also to NOT KILL ANYONE, DAMMIT! (It must be in caps too, for dramatic effect.) The UPP and the UA aren't in open conflict so sending a spy onto their ship and having him assassinate the CIC would certainly cause a diplomatic incident, so traitor objectives should be limited to stuff like "Steal the CMO's manifest" or "Release the captured CLF POW and get him to an escape pod". You can give them a traitor uplink with utilities like C4 and radio encryption keys and some way to nonlethally disable a person. It'd be fun for everyone involved, and would give the researcher and MTs something to do as well.

I could not disagree more about shipside antagonist roles. I legitimately do not believe there is any possible way to implement them without making the lives of the shipside crew a living hell and dropping marine win rates even lower. Look at how frequently power gets cut to the CIC and completely removes command from the operation for minutes at a time purely because an MT forgot to set the upper SMES. Now imagine someone whose actual job is to cause disruption on purpose (regardless of whether or not they have special tools to do it), even if you explicitly forbid them to kill anyone. Steal all the surgery trays from medbay and you've reduced them to the autodoc until req's constantly-strained points can get more trays. Cut a few wires and put the floor tiles back and you've gutted power to huge chunks of the ship in a way that will be largely unfixable because, frankly, most people who play MT/CE don't actually know how the powergrid or wiring works because it almost never comes up. Sabotage shipside telecomms or C4 the SMES and then laugh hysterically because no one is even going to attempt fixing those.

And that's without even considering that any rules you put in place regarding antagonist behavior are going to be bent and broken on a regular basis. If you think MPs are acting like antagonists just wait until you see actual antagonists abducting people with chloral hydrate, stripping them of all their gear, and leaving them sealed in a locker behind constructed walls in a welded room because "I didn't kill them, I just removed them from the round in a way that left them alive but with no possible escape!"

[NoahKirchner]

I could not disagree more about shipside antagonist roles. I legitimately do not believe there is any possible way to implement them without making the lives of the shipside crew a living hell and dropping marine win rates even lower. Look at how frequently power gets cut to the CIC and completely removes command from the operation for minutes at a time purely because an MT forgot to set the upper SMES. Now imagine someone whose actual job is to cause disruption on purpose (regardless of whether or not they have special tools to do it), even if you explicitly forbid them to kill anyone. Steal all the surgery trays from medbay and you've reduced them to the autodoc until req's constantly-strained points can get more trays. Cut a few wires and put the floor tiles back and you've gutted power to huge chunks of the ship in a way that will be largely unfixable because, frankly, most people who play MT/CE don't actually know how the powergrid or wiring works because it almost never comes up. Sabotage shipside telecomms or C4 the SMES and then laugh hysterically because no one is even going to attempt fixing those.

And that's without even considering that any rules you put in place regarding antagonist behavior are going to be bent and broken on a regular basis. If you think MPs are acting like antagonists just wait until you see actual antagonists abducting people with chloral hydrate, stripping them of all their gear, and leaving them sealed in a locker behind constructed walls in a welded room because "I didn't kill them, I just removed them from the round in a way that left them alive but with no possible escape!"

You can't C4 tcomms A fair point. That said, even if this idea may fall flat in practice, there absolutely needs to be something that justifies the existence of the MPs aside from being diet moderators who enforce OOC rules from an IC perspective with zero accountability ICly. They need something, anything to do that justifies their existence aside from just yaga yeetin' on marines who litter.

[davidofmk771]

I could not disagree more about shipside antagonist roles. I legitimately do not believe there is any possible way to implement them without making the lives of the shipside crew a living hell and dropping marine win rates even lower. Look at how frequently power gets cut to the CIC and completely removes command from the operation for minutes at a time purely because an MT forgot to set the upper SMES. Now imagine someone whose actual job is to cause disruption on purpose (regardless of whether or not they have special tools to do it), even if you explicitly forbid them to kill anyone. Steal all the surgery trays from medbay and you've reduced them to the autodoc until req's constantly-strained points can get more trays. Cut a few wires and put the floor tiles back and you've gutted power to huge chunks of the ship in a way that will be largely unfixable because, frankly, most people who play MT/CE don't actually know how the powergrid or wiring works because it almost never comes up. Sabotage shipside telecomms or C4 the SMES and then laugh hysterically because no one is even going to attempt fixing those.

And that's without even considering that any rules you put in place regarding antagonist behavior are going to be bent and broken on a regular basis. If you think MPs are acting like antagonists just wait until you see actual antagonists abducting people with chloral hydrate, stripping them of all their gear, and leaving them sealed in a locker behind constructed walls in a welded room because "I didn't kill them, I just removed them from the round in a way that left them alive but with no possible escape!"

1. The marine winrate has actually jumped significantly recently.

2. You seem to think many players simply aren't very smart given these expectations about never fixing tcomms or power.

2. What makes you think that removing somebody from the round without permission wouldn't be covered by rule 2 by default?

[Nantei]

Actually, it's not even technically correct anymore. Unsecured Equipment isn't part of marine law now and the closest equivalent, Improper Equipment Usage, only refers to discharging them or having them unholstered outside prep. So yes, if Jack Knight comes into your prep and tries to arrest you for having a flamer on the floor you should ahelp it because he is breaking marine law and that's a bannable offense for an MP.

I did, mod said it was valid, then another mod later after the round said it wasn't. Either way I am pretty sure they would have gotten away with arresting me if they had gone through with it. They later valid'd me with a small remark against them, which made me miss the drop as SL. I am fairly certain that the only way I would have gotten anything done is with a player report, and let's be honest, reporting Jack Knight is historically a complete waste of fucking time. This is why I am really upset with how staff have been handling it. Granted, I know it wasn't the mod's fault for not doing anything, I am not mad at them. I am just mad at how so many staff members try and excuse stuff like this when the person is blatantly trying to ruin someone elses' rounds. The mod was even plainly aware he was trying to grief me, but knew they couldn't do anything about it.

[FearTheBlackout]

As a CMP main who can't actually play MP OR CMP right now, I've observed that MPs are treated with scrutiny in all the wrong ways.

Arrest the Commander for wearing PJs? That's cool. Permabrig a griefing piece of shit for low RP? You're in deep shit now.

Whitelist CMP and give them the authority to issue some kind of major punishment to bad or griefing MPs instead of the current "treat Marine Law as rules so be a complete shitter about enforcing them". Restating the problem over and over doesn't solve anything unless the staff actually decide to do something about it.