I just have to...
Tharinoma wrote: ↑09 Jul 2018, 16:15
Hello.
We know there is some form of metagaming going on every round.
We know that sometimes it really sucks, like when you die early or the round you were enjoying gets brutally ended or modified.
The game has mechanics, and as such they can and will be abused by players. This is unavoidable. Coding a game in which nothing can be abused is impossible.
We are a medium RP and not a high RP server. We don't force players to put alot of effort in their roleplaying, story telling. Which means we accept unrealistic events to happen in a round.
SS13 is an RP focused game with no restraints to player actions (besides the very few mechanic limitations coded in), meaning the rules are enforced by human beings. This means there are some offenses that must be allowed because they cannot be punished consistently. Even 20 staff members can't keep track of the story of 100+ players during three hours.
There will always be a guy with a good-ish RP reason to do something that happens to favor his team. Preventing some of these would require way too much work from out devs, our mods or would simply restrain the players' gameplay too much.
Which means Metagaming is not something we can completely stop. That is common to any roleplaying game, a game in which, by definition, the player has access to information his character does not.
That being said, our staff has put alot of effort into restraining the metagaming capabilities of our players, through various means such as new features, balance, rules, or procedures. And I think the server is doing a pretty damn good job with it.
Of course, some players disagree with them. We're not going to have 100+ players agree on how to code, balance or rule the server. Some would like more freedom (identifying pill bottles), some would like more restraint (melting tools). In the end, someoen has to make a decision and the staff team makes them, taking under consideration the feedback it gets from the playerbase.
Please don't think we didn't know about the issues that were raised in this thread. My guess is a staff member thought about them before you did. And they are all discussed, some regularly, in staff channels.
There are solutions to these minor metagaming problems described above, the first one obviously being "man up and deal with it". No one ever claimed the game was perfect. Aother one is the lore we can adapt to fit the limitations of the gameplay. We play in an imaginary universe, we can decide that xenos know how to recognise human faces, or we can decide they can't. Once you see a gameplay limitation as something part of the imaginary world you're evolving in, it becomes much easier to accept and deal with.
"Some form of metagaming"? Xeno metagame by definition of metagaming.
Dying early might suck, but not being revived is one thing, dick xeno using OOC knowledge to drag every recently dead body to make sure they don't get this bonus sucks really hard.
Why writing "players" like everyone are to blame. Marines have set of things that are considered metaknowledge like welding vents before they witness xenos using them etc. Marines are punished for welding vents round start, they are bwoinked sec after shooting a farwa, or other "furhost" and this mob is getting healed/ressurected ASAP becouse benos might not get that one precious defender. Xenos don't have any "set things". Metaknowledge does not exist for xenos for some reason. Metaknowledge is not only about RP, it's also gameplay concern. You can have knowledge about every "feature", every "mechanic" in the game, yet you can still do great RP (as seen on "classic" servers where janitor can do surgery well and he also can know every single detail about cult/antag etc). Xenos Metagaming don't break anyones RP, they just break the rules.
"This means there are some offenses that must be allowed because they cannot be punished consistently. Even 20 staff members can't keep track of the story of 100+ players during three hours." - This is an excuse to let xenos meta as much as they want, but marines need to be punished every single time?
"There will always be a guy with a good-ish RP reason to do something that happens to favor his team. Preventing some of these would require way too much work from out devs, our mods or would simply restrain the players' gameplay too much." - Xenos don't RP, so no RP reasons for them and still... Talk about every player (mainly marines). Anybody have a problem with marines knowing too much that should be punished? Early rush from marines is metaknowledge as much as xenos going straight to SD after dropship crash.
"Which means Metagaming is not something we can completely stop." NOD guidance files response: "128: Do not confuse excellence with perfection. Excellence is achievable, perfection is elusive". As much as I want game to be fair and everybody to follow server rules I know that staff are only humans (or half-human, half-lizard and half-cybernetic) and they can't see everything, but not seeing every single "metaknowledge" attempt is one thing and ignoring xenos doing everything meta is another one. You can't make it perfect, but you can atleast try to make it excellent.
Adding examples of obvious metaknowledge to server rules requires... Guess how much coding.
None.
"There are solutions to these minor metagaming problems described above, the first one obviously being "man up and deal with it"." - Best line. Marines metarushing hive on prison station? You know what, benos?
Man up and deal with it.
"We play in an imaginary universe, we can decide that xenos know how to recognise human faces, or we can decide they can't. Once you see a gameplay limitation as something part of the imaginary world you're evolving in, it becomes much easier to accept and deal with." - Sure, state it in server rules. Under "No powergaming" rule state: "For xenomorphs term "metaknowledge" and "powergaming" does not exist. They know everything". In that case I will only say: "They know too much, but it's in the rules and they are only following orders, no blame on xenos"
Tharinoma wrote: ↑09 Jul 2018, 16:15
About xenomorphs dragging bodies, the subject was raised countless times. It is allowed for multiple reasons, the major ones being :
-Xenos dragging your buddys away while they're screaming for help is part of the lore and not something we want to remove. In the movies, xenos drag away people all the time, away from their friends. Some of them are found later infected, some of them dead.
-Being deffibed is not a right. The defibbing mechanic was not implemented with the idea that marines should get a chance to being defibbed. It's only a bonus.
-Removing lights from marines is a valid reason to remove corpses, and coding required to fix that with mechanics is currently too expensive.
-We cannot consistently enforce a rule forbidding it.
About focusing on critical systems :
-Most are unacidable or protected by various game mechanics
-It''s an issue we look into when it's on the almayer, and sometimes rule as metagaming depending on the situation
-it doesn't happen alot
-tcomms planetside are supposed to be in permanent danger and protected by the marines.
Running from OBs, CAS or predators:
-It was decided players wouldn't be asked to let themselves be instakilled for these.
-You can pretend xenos can see the OB shell or dropship soon en ough to run, and xenos know how strong preds are because hivemind
Breaking the colony at round start:
-It's supposed to be broken, there was a big fight there during which the xenos wiped out the colonists
-Marines are given all the supplies they need on the Almayer, they don't need anything from the ground
-Major meta is not allowed and punished, such as LZ1 hives or melting all of the nexus walls.
Metatargeting :
-Impossible to enforce if the offender is a tiny bit subtle about it
-Players can always change their name or reputation if they want
-Blurring marines was tested and it was decided to implement it, some of the reasons being:
-It killed alot of fun for the xeno side, you were reduced to a slashing machine with no RP interaction with your prey
-It caused major balance issues
Slashing weapons you didn't see fire yet :
-This happens extremely rarely. At least one xeno usually get shot by guns, sentries or MGs before they get close enough to damage them
-Xenos have a hivemind, if one saw it shoot at some point somewhere in the world, in theory all the xenos can know about it.
-Hard to enforce
Metarushing:
-Lots of mechanics implemented to prevent it
-Hard to enforce, it usually involces a high amount of players (whole squad or hive)
-Having the hive rush marines at round start actually gives the marines an advantage if they are slightly competent about it.
It should be noted that xenos do not metagame more than marines do. It depends on the player. And that meta a marine has a much bigger impact than meta as xeno.
Should you have any concerns or questions about an issue you consider metagaming, feel free to message our staff about it through the proper channels (you can always pm me on discord or the forums, for example). Should their answer not be satisfactory, feel free to make a discussion thread or a gitlab about it.
However, please do so calmly, respectfully, after doing a minimal amout of research on why things are the way they are, not because you're salty you died in a 2d spessman game, and keeping in mind things must be done for the benefit of the server as a whole and that you opinion might not be shared by the rest of the community.
In case I wasn't clear, I mean not like in this thread's first post.
As a side note, I would like to share that I think those of you that are being dicks in this threat, stirring up drama of tickling each other look like morons.
Hope this clears the concerns some of you might have.
Have a CM day!
"About xenomorphs dragging
bodies", yet after that "Xenos dragging your
buddys".
Xenos dragging living marines - Perfectly fine. Nobody will scream "metaknowlede" for beno that is dragging
Living marine.
"Being deffibed is not a right." - Sure, but I will salt about metaknowledge even if my marine is unrevivable and xeno is dragging it miles away.
"Removing lights from marines is a valid reason to remove corpses" - Sure, but dragging bodies miles away just for a purpose of denying defib is meta and powergaming. It's fine for them to relocate corpse in some corner not far away. But hiding bodies under other bodies (xeno and marinelike) is meta and powergaming.
"We cannot consistently enforce a rule forbidding it." - That's where ahelping comes in help. Sure, there might be a mass of new ahelps for that reason, but give warning that false ahelps for that reason will be punished and problem solved.
"About focusing on critical systems :
-Most are unacidable or protected by various game mechanics" - Sure.
"-It''s an issue we look into when it's on the almayer, and sometimes rule as metagaming depending on the situation" - I'm not sure "Sometimes..." If it is something critical for marines like weapon vendors, or life support systems. If it's not, it's fine. Marine killing farwa planetside? Get this motherfucker 24h ban! Atleast a note and bwoink and ofcourse revive that farwa ASAP!
"-it doesn't happen alot" Sure.
"-tcomms planetside are supposed to be in permanent danger and protected by the marines." Sure.
"Running from OBs, CAS or predators:..." - Everything sure and with IC explanation I agree.
BUT xenos are not running from predators. Everyone know that predators will just fuck around xenos without their cloak and xenos will respond "hi" to them.
"Breaking the colony at round start:
-It's supposed to be broken, there was a big fight there during which the xenos wiped out the colonists" - Hey, private McUnga, can you see this broken medbay? Nope... What's broken? All usefull vendors, everything else perfectly fine. Etc.
"-Marines are given all the supplies they need on the Almayer, they don't need anything from the ground" - A bonus might be appreciated. It's not like there is lying 1k of plasteel and 100 barell chargers.
"-Major meta is not allowed and punished, such as LZ1 hives or melting all of the nexus walls." - LZ1 hives actually prevent not so bright queens to do the worst mistake they can, so this is helping them even. Also, notice "all" walls. Melt walls that might help marines, becouse as smart beno with hivemind you know marines are coming.
"Metatargeting :
-Impossible to enforce if the offender is a tiny bit subtle about it" - Blurry face and name. If well known PFC with standard rifle is targetted then this is a problem. Smartgunner, or spec? Fine.
"-Players can always change their name or reputation if they want" - But they don't want. If by some miracle I will become the most robust men alive and Cabal Shephard will be know from being robust PFC then I will keep it for more RP occasions.
"-Blurring marines was tested and it was decided to implement it, some of the reasons being:
-It killed alot of fun for the xeno side, you were reduced to a slashing machine with no RP interaction with your prey
-It caused major balance issues" - You mean targetting decent marines is something that you can call "RP" and fun on xeno side?
>implying that xenos are not a slashing machine with no RP interactions with their pray at currently.
Ancient Revager 666 hisses: "I can't see at the first glance robustos that I know they are robust from previos rounds? We gonna lose. 'Nuff said"
"Slashing weapons you didn't see fire yet:" Sure, guns look nearly the same.
"Metarushing:" Sure
"-Hard to enforce, it usually involces a high amount of players (whole squad or hive)" - "OOC: Admeme: Stop your metarush xenos/marines, or I shall strike thee with my banhammer." - I'm sure it will work.
"It should be noted that xenos do not metagame more than marines do." Of course, only if one acknowledge there is no metaknowledge for xenos currently. They can do whatever they want. Otherwise my response will probably be a laughing face that should describe emotion like "Good joke... Really good, dude, shit my pants becouse of it".
"