Squad preference is going away for a month

[RedsPro]

To be fair about that clown mask thing, id fight anyone who is attacking my buds in whatever squad i'm in. Personally i think its dumb removing squad prefs. People like to play the game with people they like.
I also like Kavlos idea about bringing back General Comms. Its a good idea by a good lad.

[Renomaki]

You know, this is starting to sound like the main reason this is happening is moreso due to the disconnect between MPs and Marines than metabuddies.

I admit, a lot of MPs can act like idiots, but the marines only make it worse when they shit all over their face every chance they get, fighting them every chance they get even when the marine they are arresting in question has broken an IC law (such as disrespecting the CO in this face or starting a stupid brawl).

This is more an issue with people having a lack of discipline and a superiority complex, acting like they are above the law and the command structure because of how "cool" and "robust" they are, who then think they can do anything they want without IC punishment. Morso if these people are popular on the server and everyone wants to be their friend. I still recall an event long ago when I, as a CO, was arrested for a crime and put in jail, only for the marines to mutiny and slaughter everyone in the brig to rescue me... When I didn't need to be saved and was perfectly content to serve my time as a proper officer.

People will go to great lengths to help popular people, even if it means abandoning their fellow lesser marines to die and breaking the law.

I also like Kavlos idea about bringing back General Comms. Its a good idea by a good lad.

Mm, yeah, I'd totally like to go back to those days, back when squads didn't bother to communicate with each other, you could barely read the text as it rapidly scrolled up and was easily cluttered by shitlers meming, and also resulted in a disconnect between the CO and his marines, who often would just ignore command since they had each other and believed having a CiC was overrated.

People look back at it with rose-tinted glasses, but back in those days, communication was hell. Sure, it is tougher to get in touch with marines in ANOTHER SQUAD, but conversing with your own marines within your squad is hella easier, and the marines can't talk behind the CO's back anymore and treat him like a useless piece of shit. Now the CO could hear EVERYTHING and be able to more easily keep in touch with his men thanks to his squad comms.

Hell, I hated having to constantly press :[letter] whenever I wanted to talk to my own squad. I find the fact that it is as simple as going ; to be a quality of life upgrade, let alone the fact that you can READ what your squad is talking about, instead of having it fly up the screen because people keep screaming conflicting information or crying for help when they get kidnapped.

[Sleepy Retard]

I hate the thought of readding general comms. It's nearly impossible for me to read the light blue text over grey, it's almost like they're the same colour and I can't focus, and by God was it excruciatingly exhausting, painful and difficult to type in :H whenever I wanted to talk to my squad.

As well, having the ability to quickly and effectively communicate with the rest of the Marines was very unfun. I really disliked it when someone told us we were being flanked because that moved the order my SL gave me up one, which was to keep ignoring the flank.

The worst thing of this all was those fricking marines just saying the darnest and wackiest things over the general comms! Granted, that was my squad radio too but I HATED when said he got mouth fucked by a crab. That's just silly! Now with the new system he says it locally, which is much better. Another bad thing is marines giving everyone Intel and not just their squad - now that was frustrating. Like, why would I want to hear useful information? Keep it to your squad, god!

[FGRSentinel]

I cannot see this going very well. I know you guys are shooting for something like a 60-70% Xeno win rate, but I can see this leading to something closer to 80-85%+ for the month for a number of reasons that all revolve around one thing: Squad Preference makes a major impact. Even if it might be technically toeing the line for "metagaming" it's the only such instance Marines are allowed beyond knowing the map and Almayer's layout, and here's why this is a good thing, perhaps even beyond the edge it gives.

1. It helps form tight-knit groups. When I first started playing CM, I just left preference as none and bounced between squads every round. I didn't learn anything about anyone and formed no bonds with everyone. Every death seemed like BS to me, every time I couldn't be saved proof that everyone was out for themselves. Eventually, though, I started playing with Delta Squad a bit more and came to enjoy it after a specific incident where a PFC got crabbed and gave this dramatic, pleading request to be saved before accepting his fate and being dragged to the Alamo. When he said he was scared to die we told him he did good and that we'd make sure his loss wasn't in vain. When he let out a whimper about how he knew he wasn't getting into heaven, we promised him that he was a saint in our eyes and that we'd never forget him. His death was the rallying cry that drew the Deltas together to fight to the death against the Xenos, and we did our best to avenge him. After that, I've never played anything but Delta and I've had more fun that way. Deaths that would normally send me into a RL rage get nothing more than a frustrated sigh from me because I know if Delta Squad can't save me, it's because I messed up or they're being overwhelmed. It makes the game more enjoyable. Get rid of Squad Preference and you can guarantee that people who know nothing about each other are never going to cooperate as well as they do now and won't be able to get acquainted with each other fast enough to overcome this.

2. It leads to squads with a theme that work well together. Play long enough and you'll start to notice each Squad has its own niche. Bravo is considered the best at building FOBs, for instance, while Delta is known for being jokers that aggressively push their targets and have strict expectations of how involved Command (CO, XO, and their SO) are in their actions that can quickly spark a mutiny if seriously unmet. This fits in with every point below, as you'll see.

3. It allows Command Staff and enlisted officers to build a better rapport with those they can work well with. Like Marines, every CO, XO, SO, PO, and TCs have their own preference toward different ends of the spectrums the four squads currently represent and SOs tend to gravitate towards the Squad that best fits them while POs are more likely to pay attention to a preferred squad and marines are more likely to stick to a tank crew that's both competent and holds their ideals. Delta, for instance, tends to attract pranksters and quick-thinking SOs as their Overwatch officer and their SOs tend to despise incompetent or suffocating XOs and SOs as much as their squad does. Squad preferences allows Marine Squads to not only synergize well with all members of the squad, but the command staff that oversees them. Bravo's SOs might have a better attention to detail and be more interested in planning things out. What happens if a Delta SO finds themselves in charge of a squad full of people that usually play Bravo or Charlie? Someone's going to snap very quickly, which means either the SO gives up in frustration or a potential mutiny.

4. More than half of all preop plans revolve around the points above. Command Staff worth their salt know you should make Bravo have FOB duty since they're typically the squad with the most competent engineers and they know to give Delta scouting duty or setting up imprortant things that don't require constant babysitting from them after because Delta doesn't like to sit still and will simply wander off to find something to kill once their objectives are complete. This means that every CO and XO can set up a plan around these expectations and know their orders will (usually) be carried out as best as the squads can carry them out. The Xenos have something similar: every alien has a specific playstyle and the Queen can simply tell her underlings where to go once she sees who is what. She can form hunting parties at the drop of a hat by saying, say "164 and 443, go help 854 take out the tallhost nest at hydro from the east" and 164 and 443 will run to assist as best they can. Marines can't do that. If I'm Delta's SO and transfer someone to Charlie, they need to come back up to the Almayer, have their access updated, get a new headset and armor so they can hear Charlie comms and get more easily identified by their new squad, and then head all the way back down. Squad Preference automatically does for the Marines what the Queen can do with a single statement: it groups command's troops into units that work perfectly well together.

Basically, I see a large number of issues with people not able to adjust to their new, randomly selected squadmates, Command no longer having a clue how to best deploy forces, and all the above leading to the only real Marine victories during the month this is tested being either ones where the Aliens just throw the match, rounds where the Marines get fed up and just devolve into a mob that roams around the map killing everything, or ones with Admin intervention, which should never be counted in the official results to begin with.

[Build_R_]

I like the idea of removing squad preferences, it mixes things up by not knowing who you're going to be with. It also give people the opportunity to enter these friend groups and meet new people instead of being reclusive and simply watching the other members of a squad act as a hivemind doing dumb shit.

Also there might be an end to the damn grudges the squad mains hold against eachother, causing riots before they've even heard their orders from briefing.

[ComradeCorbyn]

snip

While I believe you bring up valid points, I'd like to think that Command Staff can easily pick a pre-operation plan from the number of engineers a squad might have and the specialist type. All engineers, whether it be Alpha or Delta, should know how to construct a solid and sound FOB and re-establish tcomms. It shouldn't be about meta, it should be about the availability, if you catch my drift.

In the end, this is a test. I think that a month might be too long, but it will conclude eventually. I'm not too excited about leaving my battle buddies, but it will be interesting to find new people to team up with in squads.

One thing I'd like to point out is the squad colors, which for some people, especially colorblind people, could be an eyesore for some. I know for me that most of the times, whenever I might be in Bravo and find myself as an Engineer, it can be a real hassle, if you catch my drift. It could be important, for these changes to roll out, for new colors to come aswell. Thanks!

[FGRSentinel]

The issue is that the squad assigned to FOB duty is supposed to guard it. That's why Deltas are almost never given FOB duty, or if they are another squad is rotated out to take over once it's done. The current setup lets commanders know what to expect when they give specific orders to specific squads.

[ComradeCorbyn]

The issue is that the squad assigned to FOB duty is supposed to guard it. That's why Deltas are almost never given FOB duty, or if they are another squad is rotated out to take over once it's done. The current setup lets commanders know what to expect when they give specific orders to specific squads.

However, if a marine can't deal with simple guarding tasks like FOB duty, then they shouldn't be a Marine. Unga charging and being a horde as USCM isn't the intent of the game, if you catch my drift. I dislike the current meta status of the squads, it should be decided by the factors during the match, not factors made by long-held traditions.

But I see what you are trying to point at, and I can understand what you're getting at anyways.

[FGRSentinel]

I dislike the current meta status of the squads, it should be decided by the factors during the match, not factors made by long-held traditions.

The issue is if you mean what the squad does being decided by ingame factors instead of tradition, you're talking about stripping a good part of the spirit and flavor from the Marines while failing to justify how the Xenos know where everything on the Almayer is. The Xenos have a number of things that are also blatant metagaming that I feel need to be addressed first.

If you're talking about defining the squad and who's in it, yeah, that can be done ingame... but it means every person you want to transfer needs at least 4-5 minutes where they're out of duty to get all the necessary stuff switched around, which is 4-5 minutes where there's fewer people on the ground because a few needed to get papers signed and access changed. Meanwhile, the Xenos can get it done with a single command from the queen.

No matter how you look at it, if something isn't done to hurt the Xeno side of the metagaming, this is basically a thinly disguised nerf of the Marines in my eyes.

[FGRSentinel]

To give an idea of what I mean, we all know Aliens aren't allowed to set traps "too close" to the LZ since they're not supposed to know the Marines are coming right? Has anyone ever stopped to wonder how close is "too close" by any chance? I remember a round where I decided to ahelp when we ran into traps on Solaris Ridge coming off LZ2. We went down the hallway to engineering and turned the corner... only for a facehugger to jump out of the ground and grab Delta's point man. At the same time, a member of one of the other squad was also "crabbed" up by LZ1. Sounds like that'd be "too close," especially since they obviously trapped the routes most squads would take out of the LZ, right? According to the Admin who looked at it, it "wasn't metagaming" because it wasn't right on the LZ in either case and the LZ1 case was a Carrier while LZ2 was a trap set which was fine due to "proximity to the hive." Blatant xeno metagaming is ignored and handwaved away while Squad Preferences, something that's only "slightly meta" and makes the game more fun is temporarily removed? That's basically asking everyone to pretend they're fresh out of bootcamp and don't know anyone, why not extend it to that while we're at it???

[Bancrose]

I won't expand much on this not to derail the thread, but it's a prime example of hostility to newcomers due to meta-friendships. Read the first two lines in the thread after the greeting, and read what I quoted.

Thats Murray and he has this sort of elitist look at the game. I wouldn't be bothered by it too much. Alot of Delta players like Kesserline and Dee are quite welcoming to newer players. Despite it getting me killed 75% of my rounds. I do risk my life trying to teach baldies or saving baldies. Because they feel like they are apart of the squad. I can't blame people for wanting to come to Delta to maybe learn to be better. People like Murry, Dee, Broden, Murta, etc. are considered some of our most robust marines. If I was a new player I'd want to be in a squad with them too.

[Renomaki]

I hate the thought of readding general comms. It's nearly impossible for me to read the light blue text over grey, it's almost like they're the same colour and I can't focus, and by God was it excruciatingly exhausting, painful and difficult to type in :H whenever I wanted to talk to my squad.

As well, having the ability to quickly and effectively communicate with the rest of the Marines was very unfun. I really disliked it when someone told us we were being flanked because that moved the order my SL gave me up one, which was to keep ignoring the flank.

The worst thing of this all was those fricking marines just saying the darnest and wackiest things over the general comms! Granted, that was my squad radio too but I HATED when said he got mouth fucked by a crab. That's just silly! Now with the new system he says it locally, which is much better. Another bad thing is marines giving everyone Intel and not just their squad - now that was frustrating. Like, why would I want to hear useful information? Keep it to your squad, god!

Well gee, if you put it that way, we should bring back general comms.

We should just get rid of squad comms altogether in fact, might as well, NO ONE is going to bother using it when you have the clearly superior general comms, which is SO MUCH easier to use than squad comms.

And while we are at it, we might as well remove the idea of a chain of command too. Stupid commanders, thinking they know what is best for their marines and constantly bugging us for information. We should just forget about them and lead ourselves, their orders are stupid. Hell, fuck NCOs too, we don't need to listen to them. Only the COOL KIDS know what they are doing, fuck the rest.

Lets go even further, get rid of SQUADS. We'll just be one giant unit so everyone is in the same squad with their friends and no one gets left out. Since we won't need a CiC staff anymore to relay information to, we can just tell each other what is happening on the field at any time! We'll just do whatever we feel like on the ground. As long as we win, whats it matter what we do, right?

#totalmarineIndependence

[Torrentia]

#totalmarineIndependence

Acid Goop --------->

[Sleepy Retard]

Well gee, if you put it that way, we should bring back general comms.

We should just get rid of squad comms altogether in fact, might as well, NO ONE is going to bother using it when you have the clearly superior general comms, which is SO MUCH easier to use than squad comms.

And while we are at it, we might as well remove the idea of a chain of command too. Stupid commanders, thinking they know what is best for their marines and constantly bugging us for information. We should just forget about them and lead ourselves, their orders are stupid. Hell, fuck NCOs too, we don't need to listen to them. Only the COOL KIDS know what they are doing, fuck the rest.

Lets go even further, get rid of SQUADS. We'll just be one giant unit so everyone is in the same squad with their friends and no one gets left out. Since we won't need a CiC staff anymore to relay information to, we can just tell each other what is happening on the field at any time! We'll just do whatever we feel like on the ground. As long as we win, whats it matter what we do, right?

#totalmarineIndependence

If it means you won't cry over the announcement console, then let's put your ideas forward.

[KeyWii]

I'd actually very much like general comms to make a come back.

[BillyBoBBizWorth]

#totalmarineIndependence

Rejoice!

As far as im concerned, "metabuddying" and "meta-strategies"(on both marine and xenoe sides) are one in the same.

If you keep seeing the same orders by command to keep doing the same things, then people are going to band together and eventually get really good at doing them same orders.

Remove one, and the other wont exist.

[FGRSentinel]

Rejoice!

As far as im concerned, "metabuddying" and "meta-strategies"(on both marine and xenoe sides) are one in the same.

If you keep seeing the same orders by command to keep doing the same things, then people are going to band together and eventually get really good at doing them same orders.

Remove one, and the other wont exist.

You also then have to come up with a lore reason why nobody really knows the people they're working with that well. The current system represents a real life and lore-accurate fact: unless they're straight out of bootcamp and/or just transferred into the unit, every member of a squad knows the people they're on the squad with and knows how to work with them. The current system of Squad Preferences, when you stop to think about it, actually adds a bit of RP value. Getting rid of Squad Preferences won't stop people from clustering around people that would normally be in their squads without it and unless you plan to prevent that as "metabuddying" you can't do anything about it. And, as I said, both of these are by and far the lesser of two evils when it comes to metagaming on the server, most of the worst ones being things the Xenos are allowed to do (like in my previous post, rules lawyer into a guaranteed early-OP crabbing of what's likely to be either a Squad Lead, Specialist, Smartgunner, engineer, or Medic by putting it just far enough away from the LZ to not fit the very biased range limit on metagaming the Admins enforce while still being along the path 99% of all squads take from that LZ to a specific objective)

My opinion? Crack down on Xeno metagaming first. Give it a strict, concrete definition the way the marines do. No magically knowing where everything is on the Almayer unless a sister sees it and reports where it is relative to everything else, for instance to mirror the Marines not being allowed to "know" where the hive usually is or what Facehuggers are or what they do until they discover the chestburster. No knowing what lasers, grenades, or OBs do until they see one in action and a sister lives to report it or spawns in as a new Xeno. Stuff like that. Once that's done, then maybe look at the comparably restricted Marine Metagaming. Personally, I'm tired of the Xenos landing on the Almayer and every single round swarming the SD if they land in the rear or the CIC if they land in the front before hunting for people elsewhere. I've even heard the Queen state that's the plan on at least one occasion. CO does something similar at OP start? Called out for meta/powergaming.

[Rohesie]

Thats Murray and he has this sort of elitist look at the game. I wouldn't be bothered by it too much. Alot of Delta players like Kesserline and Dee are quite welcoming to newer players. Despite it getting me killed 75% of my rounds. I do risk my life trying to teach baldies or saving baldies. Because they feel like they are apart of the squad. I can't blame people for wanting to come to Delta to maybe learn to be better. People like Murry, Dee, Broden, Murta, etc. are considered some of our most robust marines. If I was a new player I'd want to be in a squad with them too.

You and Kesserline are leaders, and Dee is just a nice person. Far from me to claim all Deltas are like that example. Merely that from my subjective observation that squad has the largest concentration of elitist and newbie-unfriendly players. Not as if the other squads are free from this, it's just less noticeable.

I run a little experiment myself sometimes: play a different character than my usual, as if I was a new player, and try to interact with the people that know me, see how they treat me. The results are very interesting. I'd recommend you to try it sometime.

All that said, this is not the thread for it.

However, if a marine can't deal with simple guarding tasks like FOB duty, then they shouldn't be a Marine. Unga charging and being a horde as USCM isn't the intent of the game, if you catch my drift. I dislike the current meta status of the squads, it should be decided by the factors during the match, not factors made by long-held traditions.

ICly I'd agree with you. If I'm given FOB duty I do my best to build a good FOB, and if I'm told to push I'll get to the frontlines and deal as much damage as I can before I die so the unga horde can do its thing. But OOCly? Come on. People have different things in my when they open the game and decide to play it. Why force them to play something they don't want to?

If anything it would be nice if you could choose your squad with the knowledge of what duty is assigned: FOB, frontlines, other. And if you think too few people would join FOB then perhaps we should rethink how the game is designed there, shouldn't we? I mean, if a job/duty is considered boring in general then it's not so much a problem of the players, but of the game itself.

[BillyBoBBizWorth]

You also then have to come up with a lore reason why nobody really knows the people they're working with that well

Great points, the marines not knowing each other or not being "metabuddys" is quite silly.Even though i was more thinking along the lines of "metabuddying" being a group of specific marines carrying out a specific task, a task they have done many times before.Now thinking, even that is quite silly, because thats exactly what these "metabuddys" have been training for!

I like those thoughts on the xenoes, they dont seem to be restricted "knowledge" wise half as much, or atleast act like it.

Why force them to play something they don't want to?

If anything it would be nice if you could choose your squad with the knowledge of what duty is assigned: FOB, frontlines, other. And if you think too few people would join FOB then perhaps we should rethink how the game is designed there, shouldn't we? I mean, if a job/duty is considered boring in general then it's not so much a problem of the players, but of the game itself.

Magical words, good questions i would like to know the answers to.

I thought of another question myself, is it classed as "metabuddying" if a SO at roundstart rushes towards a certain console for a certain squad? If not, then it shouldnt be a problem if certain marines cling to other certain marines shouldnt it?

[ComradeCorbyn]

snip

Although I'm no expert in Aliens or Colonial Marines, most of the time your in cryo aboard your vessel. Aswell, you could "icly" know your Squad Members, and you could meet new people too. When I first introduced my character, I acted as if I knew my fellow squad members and called eachother by first name. You don't need to know the other player oocly to know their character icly. But I see what your getting at anyways.

[FGRSentinel]

The issue is that if you're paired with someone you don't know that well, you can't actually RP it that well when they do something you don't expect. That's why I said it how I did. Most of the time, if you're in a squad with someone out of bootcamp you either trained alongside them or you're filling an opening in another unit. Sometimes there's a transfer, but MOST people know who they're with from training. Getting rid of the Squad Preferences wouldn't stop the metabuddy issue and it'd require admins to crack down on that as well, which means that Marines would have to RP not knowing who ANYONE on the ship was, which is rediculous.

[FGRSentinel]

Great points, the marines not knowing each other or not being "metabuddys" is quite silly.Even though i was more thinking along the lines of "metabuddying" being a group of specific marines carrying out a specific task, a task they have done many times before.Now thinking, even that is quite silly, because thats exactly what these "metabuddys" have been training for!

The response you gave to me is actually what I was thinking. The way I see it, Bravo is probably made up of the company's more patient people. Alpha's taken a shift towards a Communist persona, Delta a very patriotic, independent one, and I have no clue about Charlie. It just makes sense that the Company probably is people who trained together in bootcamp, developed strong bonds and a dislike for some members, things like that. It's the same as how Aliens can find out each others' general playstyle by what caste they pick.

[WinterClould]

-snip-

Oh for the love of God sleepy please don't say all that.
Someone will think you're being serious or some shit.

[Asmodius]

I'm gonna' be real with you chief, the Marines already know who is who, who to shit talk, who won't FF them and who will actually watch their back. Removing squad prefs will not aide this. I'm just gonna' get matched with a bunch of random name-spawn Marines who I'm unsure of their competency and therefore my willingness to battle-buddy with them. If I can't trust my squad's competency, who can I actually trust? I know how Marines play, the ones with names, there's already a set pattern of how people play, what you expect of others, I know exactly what Kesserline will order from his engie prep, I can expect Dolthgar to not have armor and point-blank random xenos. If I'm bleeding or dying, you're going to see me crawling to one of three medics, Alicia Parker, Elena Mei, or Haley Altmann, Hell, even Alyssa Frost who I haven't seen in a while. I know which SLs will rally Marines such as Uriel Turner.

I expect what I do out of Marines and them being in a squad gives me a general idea of where they are. This scrambles that idea and I have nothing to expect from Baldy McBalderson the Medic who gives me Dylovene for my IB and pats me on the back.

I know who won't end my round early and who will actually give me valuable info on Xeno areas or even spot the hugger-trap for me instead of pushing me into it.

I can trust their playstyle because it's tried and true and they know what they're doing.

I'm gonna' be real with you chief, this wouldn't help me make new friends.

[Karmac]

metabuddying and discord groups were around before squad prefs were added and they'll be around after they're removed

all this did was make it easier to actually be put in the same squad as people you knew and enjoyed playing with, which I'd see as a good change

removing it in favor of the old 'random squads' system just seems like a pointless step backwards

edit: the fact that emeraldblood's post essentially points out all these facts and does little to actually provide a counterpoint as to how removing squad prefs will change anything further proves this is a futile attempt and you all know it