New term - the Rose Rush

[JJG]

I think a lot of people and admins seem to have the mentality that "if marines roflstomp, then they broke some rule or abused some loophole."

A marine stomp doesn't seem to be accepted as a victory, it's either xenos stomp, or its an hour of back and forth before a side emerges victorious. Xenos stomping is accepted by everyone because xenos are supposed to be the stronger race, but when marine tactics overpower xenos power, it's cheating.

This.

[Dauntasa]

Maybe, if the map design only allows one or two viable hive locations and also naturally funnels all the marines directly into those locations by arbitrarily blocking off alternate routes behind indestructible blast doors, the map should be redesigned instead of having its flaws paved over by banning people for following a logical, IC strategy. Having played on both sides of prison, there is no strategic nuance for either side whatsoever. You can do The Strategy or you can lose. Xeno strategy is lure the marines into the narrow corridors, wipe them out, and have them pushed back to the FOB in 30 minutes. Marine strategy is rush to the crashed ship and try to force the Xenos back into their hive immediately so you don't get bogged down in the tight corridors and die. The fact that the central area is locked behind blast doors for an extended period of time funnels all the marines into one spot, and that spot happens to be basically right where the xeno hive usually is.

As a band-aid solution I would suggest just moving the timelock doors so that they block off the civilian residences instead of the yard, so that the marines have full freedom of movement throughout the main station but still can't just instarush the xeno hive because of the blast doors. The xenos can use the vents to harass the marines and try to devour a few and bring them back to the hive, and the marines can get set up around the yard area. This way, it would work more like the LV fog and simply limit rushing early on rather than funneling everyone into narrow murder halls where rushing is the only strategy. Also, IC, this makes more sense. In a prison riot you'd want to protect the civilian staff, so sealing off their residences makes more sense than sealing off the yard, which is just a big open area with nothing in it.

[Symbiosis]

So, I'm assuming this might be related to the prison round a little bit ago, in which I watched, and observed a lot of it. Three squads were ordered to the crashed ship. No xenos were chased that way. Only one was engaged on the way their, a runner, which in fact. Led the marines to the south east portion, well, tried to. But it died. No one followed the runner, instead the continued on the path of best speed towards the crashed dropship. Where an ungodly amount of marines swarmed over three xenos. Everything outside of the doors were dead. A huge, almost probably 70% of the map was completely unexplored. As four squads were now at the podlocks, before the last xeno was even dead at the dropship, barricades were being contructed at the doors. Marines, at this point in time, had no real way of knowing there would be a huge force of xenos on the other side of those doors.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not expecting them to ignore them, but when all four squads are at the podlocks before the hour, and they are almost fully reinforced, (besides center.) It's a little... Strange. The remainder of the map was left unexplored and untouched for the huge majority of the game. The second the doors drop, marines surged forward on two fronts. I don't know what happened north, but their was little combat that way, most of them seemed to have been pushed towards the center moments before the doors opened.

I think another point needs to be made. No xenos led any marines to the hive, and only away from the hive, as far as I could tell. The three at the crashed dropship (One of which actually fled east, or tried to) certainly didn't claw at the podlocks screaming "Our hive is behind here ahhh."

You know how in Scary Movies they always split up? Or they'll see the door swing open slightly and a lone individual will open the door to die?

This isn't how CM works.

There were three directions to go upon contact. North, west, or back the way we came.

We found hostiles that were trying to kill other Humans AND US. We chose big brain. Even if Aestell hadn't told us to go north or west, we would've pursued the only logical direction. Not split up into groups of three and scout the north side of the Prison Station AFTER running into hostiles.

[Lorem123]

I usually think the whole "xeno bias" whining is stupid but this is legitimately ridiculous, this CO is being punished simply for being competent, not even for actually breaking rules.

A staff member is threatening a CO with a ban because they have a good winning percentage against xenos.

[solidfury7]

Why the fuck cant the xenos adapt? Marines are constantly asked to adapt, but when the marines use an actual strategy that works, its gets nerfed to hell.

Because certain things are not accounted for or expected when developing,

Did you want Xenos to adapt to four M56Ds in the SD room with over 200 metal used on cases?

Or when dropships used to hijack sulaco to have marines spam UGLs nonstop untill nearly all xenos died.

Or the fact that dropship walls cant be crushed or melted?

Not to sound rude but if you don't see issues with these, you need to stop thinking that the game is soley about you and maximising winrates.

Cheese mechanics aren't adapting, its just cheese.

[ThePiachu]

Poor Gaius. His innocently intended thread is being stormed by salt.

Hehe, I am sorry for this thread everyone .

[Sargash]

You know how in Scary Movies they always split up? Or they'll see the door swing open slightly and a lone individual will open the door to die?

This isn't how CM works.

There were three directions to go upon contact. North, west, or back the way we came.

We found hostiles that were trying to kill other Humans AND US. We chose big brain. Even if Aestell hadn't told us to go north or west, we would've pursued the only logical direction. Not split up into groups of three and scout the north side of the Prison Station AFTER running into hostiles.

You just, selected one tiny part of what I said. And ignored the rest. No one expects you to just, rush away. When you guys sit against doors for 20 minutes, and do nothing to check out the rest of the map, and the only damage that was taken was from FF.... What I'm saying with that is you guys were hardly attacked. I don't know how much the runner slashed you, but I know you weren't attacked but once at the dropship. You specifically were shot, and lit on fire by your own guys. That aside.

The twenty mintues of marines ignoring the entirety of the station, with unknown hostiles and fortifying as far away from resupply lines as possible, while also not reinforcing your rear at all is, insane on a number of levels, especially when plenty of information pointed to behind the lines. Instead, marines following the meta, decided to ignore the 70% of possible areas teeming with 'enemies' and barricaded up shoulder to shoulder against walls and doors facing west.

All four squads, led away from Civ, yet even still, end up pressed tight against Civ within ten minutes of landing and barricaded down tight facing towards the hive, is, for lack of better words, metaknowledge.

[Dauntasa]

Because certain things are not accounted for or expected when developing,

This isn't like any of these, though. This is, simply, that the map design forces a confrontation at a specific spot early into every round and whoever wins this confrontation immediately pushes the opposing side all the way back to their base. If you don't show up for that confrontation, you lose by default. That is what the map design dictates. You can't design a map that way and then punish people for carrying out the logical strategy that arises from it. You especially can't only punish one side for performing that strategy when it's the same strategy on both sides. Confrontation at Crash Site, xenos win, overrun the marines and push them back to the FOB in 20 minutes: OKAY. Confrontation at Crash Site, marines win, rout the xenos and push them back to the hive in 20 minutes: NOT OKAY. People feel like you're biased when you do that. If you don't want that to be the way the map goes, redesign the map so that it doesn't go that way.

[Sargash]

This isn't like any of these, though. This is, simply, that the map design forces a confrontation at a specific spot early into every round and whoever wins this confrontation immediately pushes the opposing side all the way back to their base. That is what the map design dictates. You can't design a map that way and then punish people for carrying out the logical strategy that arises from it. You especially can't only punish one side for performing that strategy when it's the same strategy on both sides. Confrontation at Crash Site, xenos win, overrun the marines and push them back to the FOB in 20 minutes: OKAY. Confrontation at Crash Site, marines win, rout the xenos and push them back to the hive in 20 minutes: NOT OKAY. People feel like you're biased when you do that. If you don't want that to be the way the map goes, redesign the map so that it doesn't go that way.

Except that's not what happens. A confrontation happens at crashed ship early on for two reasons, 1:Poor CO wants to investigate it. 2: CO wants to use it as a staging ground to rush into the unknown, unseen enemy base.

On the Xeno side of things, the crashed ship is right outside of their base. Survivors hold up in that place a lot because it's a good spot to hold out. Especially because a whole squad at least always rushed it. Two, Xenos always see marines holding up the crashed ship one way or the other, and respond with overwhelming force because they decided to base up in that place for no real good reason. What you're describing would make sense if all of the Xenos camped just outside of LZ1/2, and set up a huge defensive laye rof walls, sticky resin, and other such things, then ran full tilt into the marines the second they land. That is what marines are doing to Xenos on prison. Their is no hiding having FOUR squads, hunkered up against all three entrances into the hive, while having ignored 70% of the map, and while having been led AWAY from the hive on multiple occasions.

[ThePiachu]

Hmm... What would happen if there were no blast doors on Prison? Would the situation be significantly changed for better, or worse?

[Symbiosis]

Except that's not what happens. A confrontation happens at crashed ship early on for two reasons, 1:Poor CO wants to investigate it. 2: CO wants to use it as a staging ground to rush into the unknown, unseen enemy base.

On the Xeno side of things, the crashed ship is right outside of their base. Survivors hold up in that place a lot because it's a good spot to hold out. Especially because a whole squad at least always rushed it. Two, Xenos always see marines holding up the crashed ship one way or the other, and respond with overwhelming force because they decided to base up in that place for no real good reason. What you're describing would make sense if all of the Xenos camped just outside of LZ1/2, and set up a huge defensive laye rof walls, sticky resin, and other such things, then ran full tilt into the marines the second they land. That is what marines are doing to Xenos on prison. Their is no hiding having FOUR squads, hunkered up against all three entrances into the hive, while having ignored 70% of the map, and while having been led AWAY from the hive on multiple occasions.

Sounds like you're consistently seeing an issue with map design that is resulting in an undesirable outcome according to a few individuals. Maybe the podlocks are BAD for the Xenos? Maybe being able to expand out - or change up location is helpful?

Better threaten to ban them rather than address the map issue.

[TheMaskedMan2]

I don't think this entirely applies to the entire marine force. I think that was intended for just solo marines.

And is this suppose to be a rule for us to not punish xenos for mistakes? If a lone crusher rushes my squad on first contact and runs away. Are we suppose to let it run away otherwise we are breaking rules?

Like I get a lot of responses from admins saying a lot of our problems as marines are due to our incompetence (IE. Neth saying marines are retarded because Aliens flanked through LZ1 at 12:40). But it goes both ways ya know....I know you nerfed queen and maybe xenos are on the short end of the stick. But like...This one is borderline of the rules and player incompetence. I can't really tell but just a different perspective on it.

I personally think this extends to the point where OOC gain outgains that, and there is also a point where Marines will use any excuse they have. A single runner roaring in a vent or a rambo Xeno shouldn't give cause to completely metarush and stomp the hive. There are also cases where Marines will conveniently march infront of the hive location, listen for the sounds of a single Xeno growl, and claim they heard noises and can swarm in. I've never denied i'm Xeno bias'd. That's why I don't try to rule on these kinds of matters and leave it up to the other staff online, but it's just my opinion that this sort of thing shouldn't be possible in the first place due to map design, but I also don't think a whitelisted Commander, who is expected to show a bit of restraint, should be abusing these flaws to wipe the Xenos before the 1 hour mark.

In my experience there will always be an "excuse" or an "IC" reason to rush across to the hive, it was the same story back in the day to LV, where there was just this unspoken timer that Marines couldn't cross the river until 30 minutes into the round, or whatever it was, is it "immersion breaking"? Yes, it is, that's why the fog was implemented, but it was for the OOC benefit of the whole round. Prison also currently has these problems, and while you could blame it solely on map design and the devs, it also doesn't look good to have a whitelisted player encouraging breaking that. We expect better out of a whitelisted position to not abuse mechanics like this just because they can, you can't abuse and cheese the hell out of things and then just scream that it's the devs fault for not accounting for it.

Anyways, this is just my opinion, I didn't handle the situation in question. Prison probably needs an update, yeah, but also a whitelisted Commander shouldn't be jumping at every little excuse to rush the hive so early, but y'know, that's just my opinyot man.

[Symbiosis]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEKB7pi1mbc

[Dauntasa]

Except that's not what happens. A confrontation happens at crashed ship early on for two reasons, 1:Poor CO wants to investigate it. 2: CO wants to use it as a staging ground to rush into the unknown, unseen enemy base.

On the Xeno side of things, the crashed ship is right outside of their base. Survivors hold up in that place a lot because it's a good spot to hold out. Especially because a whole squad at least always rushed it. Two, Xenos always see marines holding up the crashed ship one way or the other, and respond with overwhelming force because they decided to base up in that place for no real good reason. What you're describing would make sense if all of the Xenos camped just outside of LZ1/2, and set up a huge defensive laye rof walls, sticky resin, and other such things, then ran full tilt into the marines the second they land. That is what marines are doing to Xenos on prison. Their is no hiding having FOUR squads, hunkered up against all three entrances into the hive, while having ignored 70% of the map, and while having been led AWAY from the hive on multiple occasions.

The xenos go there because 1: The entire central area of the station is inaccessible, so there's only 2 directions that the marines can go, 2: Xenos know that the marines do not typically land any significant force at LZ2 and are thus going to be sending their main group clockwise through the station, reaching that area, 3: the area around the crash site is advantageous ground for the xenos because it's all tight corridors and the sentries are more dangerous for the marines than the xenos and 4: because it covers the obvious pathway for the marines to attack the hive.

The marines go there because 1: The entire central area of the station is inaccessible, so there's only 2 directions the marines can go, 2: The marines want to keep the majority of their force together and not split it between the 2 LZs, as it weakens their position to do that, 3: The crash site is an obvious point of interest on the map, IC, that they would logically go investigate, and 4: it covers the pathway from Tcomms, and failing to cover that leaves it open.

If the xenos ignore all of this and send their force to the north, the logical marine strategy leads them directly to the hive and lets them assault it extremely quickly. If the marines ignore this and send their force to the north, the logical xeno strategy leads them directly to Tcomms and lets them assault it extremely quickly. Not going here leads to a fast loss for either side. It's not purely about winning or losing, sure, but you lose so fast and so convincingly by failing to do this that there's no RP or fun to be had, either.

[Coat McMutton]

As the drone that died at the crashed ship that round, let me chime in.

A warrior, a lurker, and I were going after the survivors boarded up in the crashed ship's engine room. We were almost the only xenos outside of the blast doors, due to the vents being completely disabled after admin intervention to change their visibility above other sprites, which somehow led to the disconnection of all those vents that were still working. Apparently a lot of vents have a technical problem on that map already.
While we knew that the marines had landed due to our one and only forward scout, the runner that was mentioned to have tried to lure the marines southeast, we did not know how many marines - or any at all - were headed in our direction. So we kept pursuing our goal to get the survivors. I even built some doors and walls on the ship, to make it a bit harder for survivors to move out, should they ever try. The other two xenos evolved into a ravager and praetorian respectively, to have a better chance at breaching the holdout.
Then we got surprised by Delta moving into the ship, because we had no scouts reporting that movement. We got massacred, and even I could not get out, because the vents were not working. Disconnected from all pipes. Not a single xeno was left to lead the marines to the blast doors. Not a single T3 expressedly waited to ambush marines at the ship; their positioning was a matter of coincidence. Instead of resuming scouting to find other specimen outside the blast doors, for example the elusive runner, or more survivors/civilians, marines dug in, preparing to storm CIV. ICly, it could even be argued that maybe the ship housed those four creatures, was its source and home, and taken. But that would be HRP, let's not kid ourselves.
These are the reasons why I would classify this round specifically as meta'd by the marines, and I say that as a marine main.

But there are also reasons I dislike Aestel Wellick in general. Their playstyle as Commander completely devolves the game into a thinly skinned TDM, taking away all time to explore and RP a little. As marine main, I always groan when I see that Wellick is in command, because the rush will be employed. Every single time, without fail, she will try to win as fast as humanly possible, at the cost of RP. While I recognise that many players put the mechanics over the social aspect of CM, I dislike her for that. I want to be given the chance to go "Holy shit, this man has a fist-sized hole in his chest, maybe we should talk about it" when my character sees a civilian corpse. But under Wellick there is no time to do that, because the squads must be in position to execute against an enemy, whose strength can not be known to her the moment she devises her plan, whose position shouldn't be either. Granted, it's hard to argue against men to be sent beyond the podlocks on Prison, but I see that as a failure of the map mainly.
Reason two I dislike Wellick, which has nothing to do with the round being vehemently discussed here, is that she at least used to play as a glorified smartgunner. "Briefing at 12:18, Req be turbofast. XO, you will have the bridge, I'm going down first wave to lead the men against a colony that went dark, leaving you with one SO to coordinate in the CIC."
At least she has cut back on doing that shit, and since then her winrate seems to have risen. My opinion of her however will continue to be tainted by the fact that she used her whitelist position to be guaranteed a smartgunner position and leaving many CICs understaffed to run and gun.

I much prefer a CO that plays reactionary and loses the round for it than a CO whose number one goal is to win the round. Give me time to enjoy the game, don't make me your pawn you need to gain a meaningless victory. The best marine rounds are when the forces pull themselves together after suffering many losses, to crush the aliens against the odds, not because they knew that they had to invade the hive before the first T3 reaches mature.

[Aestel]

But there are also reasons I dislike Aestel Wellick in general. Their playstyle as Commander completely devolves the game into a thinly skinned TDM, taking away all time to explore and RP a little. As marine main, I always groan when I see that Wellick is in command, because the rush will be employed. Every single time, without fail, she will try to win as fast as humanly possible, at the cost of RP. While I recognise that many players put the mechanics over the social aspect of CM, I dislike her for that. I want to be given the chance to go "Holy shit, this man has a fist-sized hole in his chest, maybe we should talk about it" when my character sees a civilian corpse. But under Wellick there is no time to do that, because the squads must be in position to execute against an enemy, whose strength can not be known to her the moment she devises her plan, whose position shouldn't be either. Granted, it's hard to argue against men to be sent beyond the podlocks on Prison, but I see that as a failure of the map mainly.

The ground does not offer much role-play opportunities regardless of the strategy employed. One mistake, and you are carted off to the hive in the stomach of a lurker or dead in the jungle. If you want to roleplay a non-combat scenario, please play a shipside role. Squads are on the clock because they are supporting eachother in my strategies. If one is slow, the other dies.

Reason two I dislike Wellick, which has nothing to do with the round being vehemently discussed here, is that she at least used to play as a glorified smartgunner. "Briefing at 12:18, Req be turbofast. XO, you will have the bridge, I'm going down first wave to lead the men against a colony that went dark, leaving you with one SO to coordinate in the CIC."
At least she has cut back on doing that shit, and since then her winrate seems to have risen. My opinion of her however will continue to be tainted by the fact that she used her whitelist position to be guaranteed a smartgunner position and leaving many CICs understaffed to run and gun.

What you aren't seeing is that I am still coordinating with squad leads, which despite your signature, I have never seen you be so its easy to question it. Leading from the front is a bit harder than the CIC, but I ALWAYS ask my XO if they are comfortable leading the operation. They need the opportunity to shine as well and hone their skills. Various COs did the same before for me when I was XO, and it was appreciated.

Also, if you think I was being a glorified smartgunner, you are probably new. CO orders are one of the best things in the game, and can make or break a push. Hold order will literally pull people out of critical, and focus will make every shot in a burst go to the same spot, and move will make you go runner speeds. Reason I stopped deploying every round was because of mods bitching, and the xeno meta targeting(which is never punished despite them calling me out in their hivechat and having no way of knowing I was leading).

I much prefer a CO that plays reactionary and loses the round for it than a CO whose number one goal is to win the round. Give me time to enjoy the game, don't make me your pawn you need to gain a meaningless victory. The best marine rounds are when the forces pull themselves together after suffering many losses, to crush the aliens against the odds, not because they knew that they had to invade the hive before the first T3 reaches mature.

Spoken like a true xeno main. Play a shipside role, most marines would prefer that I not throw their lives away recklessly and force them to wait two hours while we slog it out in an FOB. I will not, and will never sacrifice squads for your enjoyment, but you are clear to unga if you'd like.

[AmazinglyAmazing]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEKB7pi1mbc

Thank you. You gave me plenty of giggles there while reading all of this.

[Heckenshutze]

I think a lot of people and admins seem to have the mentality that "if marines roflstomp, then they broke some rule or abused some loophole."

A marine stomp doesn't seem to be accepted as a victory, it's either xenos stomp, or its an hour of back and forth before a side emerges victorious. Xenos stomping is accepted by everyone because xenos are supposed to be the stronger race, but when marine tactics overpower xenos power, it's cheating.

Whoever thinks the Xenos are the stronger race don't know shit, Lore-wise, games-wise, Humans could exterminate the xenomorphs if they really wanted to, humans are, by brains only, the masterace. (Just wanting to comment on the 'xenos supposed to be the stronger race' BS) and this logic also applies to our game itself, even when xenos get all the advantage they get, marines (humans(?)) manage to perform 'roflstompings' from time to time. They get nerfed, they OOC destroy their tactics/strategies and yet they manage to find another way to achieve the same result again. Humans are the best, fuck xenos.

--

Aside from that, one of the things I like, as ex-staff is:

1) Having a deeper understanding of the game from a non-player-like perspective.

2) Having this info yet not the obligation to follow the staff criteria so I can speak freely:

I always opposed the fact the staff way of thinking is based on a principle: "Marines can't stomp, and if they succeed to, we need to break them down" under the excuse of "Got to keep them xeno players entertained and well-protected from general CM salt otherwise who's gonna be xeno?"

GENTLEMEN. There's ALWAYS going to be xeno players, you have to seriousy fuck up the game and give 90-10 win rate to marines to possibly achieve a zero-xeno player rate.

Xeno mains, which are, a special and rare part of our community understand, and know that there's no fun in a game where you can easily win because the other team is forced to be shit and to have to work EXTREMELY HARD to actually get the same kill-rate of someone who knows shit about the game but went xeno instead of marine.





One of the things I like of Rahl as God Emperor of CM is he knows the game works better giving freedom to players to both RP or play for the win BUT ALSO TO REALLY FUCK UP AND FAIL, staff intervention should limit itself to deal with griefers, erp, bad players and the usual stuff you have to do to keep the game 'clean' , but the development of the round and how the game ends, it should be solely the players doing.

Marines stomped? well shit, guess xenos were too fucking bald, bad and shit.

Xenos stomped? Well shit, it's intended that's after all WHY WE HAVE OUR 'PERFECT' UN-BALANCE.


But always going on a crusade to decimate marine players new strategies, tactics and such that are within the rule and aren't worthy of being considered powergame/metagame/whateverthefuckyouwannasay has to stop.

[TehSpoderman]

Because certain things are not accounted for or expected when developing,

Did you want Xenos to adapt to four M56Ds in the SD room with over 200 metal used on cases?

Or when dropships used to hijack sulaco to have marines spam UGLs nonstop untill nearly all xenos died.

Or the fact that dropship walls cant be crushed or melted?

Not to sound rude but if you don't see issues with these, you need to stop thinking that the game is soley about you and maximising winrates.

Cheese mechanics aren't adapting, its just cheese.

I can definitely see the problem with those tactics, but guess what?

This isn't like those tactics at all.

It isn't a cheese tactic because the marines are going to a crashed ship that is on every map including the one on the wiki, in fact, you can check it right now and see the crashed ship is there.

Don't you think that the marines will go to a ship which is wedged into the station and fully visible on the outside to investigate what happened to the station?

I don't care about win rates and all that. I play this server as a form of escapism and fun, as most are here to do. Thinking otherwise is just plain dumb.

However, this is just limiting COs and removing an actual working tactic that if the xenos actually TRIED, they can learn how to counter it.

Stop babying the Xenos and let them learn for once.

[Casany]

I fear competent CO players may start being banned in the future for using these smart tactics. Because the admins here don’t fucking care. Most of the heads don’t care what players have to say, ESPECIALLY players that have bee branded “toxic”.

So basically the majority of the people here. I don’t think anyone here (well, most anyone here) is toxic, but sadly the staff team have already made up their mind. It’s not them that has the problem, it’s the players. It’s one giant fucking circlejerk, IMO.

Like I said before I think the tactic makes logical sense and is the only actual viable strategy AS WELL as being be most logical one.

Though, I do have a request for any commander players who happen to read this. One round on Prison, don’t send any marines to the crashed ship. Don’t even send them past Engineering and Medbay until the podlock doors open. This will most certainly end in a marine defeat, yes, but according to the admins doing anything otherwise is metagaming so you don’t wanna risk getting banned! Because if you get banned, not like you’re gonna be able to do anything except wait for the ban period. Reports wouldn’t work because if they involve “problem” players or staff they take weeks to a month to resolve. I just don’t wanna see good competent CO players banned for being competent

[Dauntasa]

I much prefer a CO that plays reactionary and loses the round for it than a CO whose number one goal is to win the round. Give me time to enjoy the game, don't make me your pawn you need to gain a meaningless victory. The best marine rounds are when the forces pull themselves together after suffering many losses, to crush the aliens against the odds, not because they knew that they had to invade the hive before the first T3 reaches mature.

I definitely agree that using suboptimal strategy to make the game more fun for everyone is fine and can lead to some very good rounds. The problem is, not on Prison, because ANY OTHER STRATEGY results in immediately losing in the most pathetic and disheartening way imaginable. You just get rolled. No time for RP, no time for anything, the aliens just kill everyone. You can't stop to RP when an alien is detaching your head from your body. There are no stories to tell on Prison right now other than "the Tale of the Marines Who Went to the Crash Site and Killed Everything Really Fast" or "The Tale of the Marines Who Did Not Go to the Crash Site and Died In Twenty Five Minutes". You can't blame people for preferring winning to losing, and when there's only one possible way to ever have a hope of winning that's what people will do.

[davidofmk771]

It's just a bit ridiculous to completely ignore the obvious precipitant to the distress signal. What else would they be calling for help for? Why would almost everyone be missing or dead? The whole theme of the map has an unfortunate effect of leading the marines from east to west based on natural IC decisions. Perhaps sending two squads is a bit ridiculous, but I feel like this sects a bad precedent for meta rulings, and I think it's only a part of the bigger problem addressed in a recent thread about the early-game meta of FOB/Hive building and artificially holding back to avoid punishments for attacking the xenos before they are developed enough.

[Coat McMutton]

The ground does not offer much role-play opportunities regardless of the strategy employed.

LV allows plenty of talking before the fog drops. Scouting squads can even break into the corporate dome and react to the pile of money scattered around a corpse there. Because they don't have to be at the caves by 1230.
Ice overground can result in a hiking simulator when no side wants to engage the other (for meta reasons).
FOB squads have time to comment on what is happening around them. A second to write a sentence about what their marine does on leave. You know, MRP for a second.

despite your signature, I have never seen you be [a squadleader]

That is because I mostly play standard marine, by a very large margin. Charlie regulars can attest to that. In a playerbase that breaks 250 players on weekends, I realise that it is impossible to know everyone.
I do in fact know how hard it is to play a leadership role, especially on the ground, which is why I don't main that role and only have it on low occasionally. It also happens that I do cryo at round-start when I'm given SL for Alpha (because I will not be forced into reading chat the same color as the combat log when playing a communication based role) or see that you are CO for that round.

Also, if you think I was being a glorified smartgunner, you are probably new.

I have been playing intensely since November of last year. I was there when orders were introduced. I regularly regret not using them instantly when their cooldown has passed. I am well aware of their effects.
The reason I call you a glorified smartgunner is that I observed you dying very early into the op many times (not necessarily as a ghost), because you tend to stick to the first or second row of the engagement, instead of holding back to let your orders do the work for you (at this point, please don't remind me of their short range, I know. But it is possible to wait for the cooldown to pass while not shooting your gun and continuing to move forward). Now I expect you to counter that many marines will not push if a leader won't do it first - aye, that's true. But because of your smartgun, white beret, and purple hair you are making it very easy for xenos to make you out even in the heat of battle, leading to an early demise, depriving the marines of one member of Command, as well as the CO's orders which you claim to be so necessary for your work.

Spoken like a true xeno main. Play a shipside role

If I wanted to purely RP and not see combat, I'd play on an HRP server, not on CM.
Furthermore, the sentiment that an attempt to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat is preferable to an easy win is shared not just by me, but other marine regulars / mains, many of whom I respect. I can't get around the feeling that the xeno main part was intended to insult me for not wanting to optimally every single round.

I realise that we two have different things we want to get out of playing CM. I felt it necessary to voice my disagreement with your view, because I want you to see some of the reasons of why things like this very thread carry your name and why maybe some of the mods have spoken to you about your playstyle. I hope you will take this to heart, because despite not enjoying your playstyle, I am not someone who would want you to lose your whitelist over this. I am not your enemy, I just want you to see things from my perspective and maybe get you to reconsider.
And I want to make sure that this criticism is separate from talking about Prison, which I do in fact consider heavily flawed in its design.

[ComradeCorbyn]

While I believe that many points provided by people above are true and that; in certain scenarios, it is logical for the Marines to ignore the context of the Marine's visit, I believe that Commanders should not be able to rush or charge towards the hive. While I'm no developer or admin, I think that the purpose of the game is not to win, but to have fun in the journey to win. You cannot achieve enjoyment for most of the server if the round ends fourty or an hour in.

To illustrate my point further, as a Corporate Liaison I wouldn't be able to make certain roleplay situations possible, and especially as a Marine I would not enjoy charging towards the hive and just running and gunning, as Coat McMutton said, "don't make me your pawn you need to gain a meaningless victory." However, this being said, some people enjoy winning surprizingly. We should have a balance of both worlds, it is more enjoyable in my own opinion to win when the odds are all against the Marines.

That being said, I do not believe Commanders or Marines should be punished for attempting to break the early-round meta of artificially holding back, but at the same time allowing the Xenos time to prepare or expand themselfs. A new system would be recommended, but as seeing the developers already have enough on their plate as is it would be forever until we can.

Just my unwanted opinion, hopefully this gets resolved in a way that makes both sides happy.

[taketheshot56]

I dont like it, Ill say it as it is. Its clear and blatant meta. I was a survivor yesterday. After being rescued and a quick trip to the ship I finally settled in at the CLs office when the marines won a major.

Three squads outside civ by 12:30, its stupid, its not fun, and it drains any life from the game as others have said already, masking it as a cheap team deathmatch.