New term - the Rose Rush

[xXen0zS1ay3rXx]

Rushing has been in the game since forever, I feel it really falls down to better balancing beno early game and making prison station less awful.

No sense banning someone over using the mechanics given to them.

[TexasTwoStep]

A staff member is threatening a CO with a ban because they have a good winning percentage against xenos.

Among other comments - there's a little bit more than that to it.

Really it's still being reviewed:

What REALLY is metarushing?
What do we consider meta-rushing?
Where do we cross-the-line?
Limit it Mechanically (like LV's fog making it literally impossible or changing podlock times.)?

The whole situation(s) are really still being considered, it's as a forewarning i'm sure to becareful with these sorts of things.

[Renomaki]

These rushes are the very reason why LV has a fog now. People complain about the fog bogging things down, but without it, we'd be back in the days when staff had to jump through hoops to keep random squads of marines from rushing up north for no logical reason, from spamming hostile mobs to making things go BOOM... And people hated that.

For the longest time, staff had to deal with people complaining about how said staff dealt with metarushes, and many YEARNED for an mechanical solution... SO we got one. Now people complain that it makes things boring and they want to remove it, forgetting that the whole reason it was there in the first place was BECAUSE of how people would constantly metarush the moment staff aren't paying attention.

I do have to agree that lately, there has been a lot of drama around Prison and how rushes tend to happen so easily, even if it is unintended. Back then marines didn't realize that the north and south would be open, so they often were on the defensive until 12:45 or whatever time the gates open up. But now that they are aware of the paths to the hive, it is hard for them NOT to end up doing a full scale assault on the hive early into the round.

I think really, what has to be done to solve this is to rework the gate system. Maybe instead of allowing two paths in from the north and south and lock the middle, they should FLIP THAT and make the middle unlock first, THEN the north and south. That way, marines can't surround the xenos so quickly and overwhelm them so easily.

It wouldn't stop metarushes persay, but it WOULD at least make it easier for both sides to skirmish on a single front, rather than having to deal with two fronts at the same time, EVERY, SINGLE, ROUND.

[Torrentia]

Among other comments - there's a little bit more than that to it.

Really it's still being reviewed:

What REALLY is metarushing?
What do we consider meta-rushing?
Where do we cross-the-line?
Limit it Mechanically (like LV's fog making it literally impossible or changing podlock times.)?

The whole situation(s) are really still being considered, it's as a forewarning i'm sure to becareful with these sorts of things.

Well maybe hold the players privy to those discussions rather than the sporadic staff comment of "I don't like it therefore it's bad", or "I don't like this person/playstyle so expect bans in the future". It's inconsistent and there needs to be a solid ruling on the matter, not just random low-level staff opinions.

[FearTheBlackout]

Or maybe don't single out a single character/player for a strategy you don't like.

[TexasTwoStep]

Well maybe hold the players privy to those discussions rather than the sporadic staff comment of "I don't like it therefore it's bad", or "I don't like this person/playstyle so expect bans in the future". It's inconsistent and there needs to be a solid ruling on the matter, not just random low-level staff opinions.

What do you considered low-level staff? Everyone Moderator and Below, Admin and Below?

We have a staff-chat in which ALL of Staff has access too and as a staff-team we use it in difficult circumstances to bring up different points of views so that we are united to the players. This situation and the following situations dropped in the aspect that some of staff agree and disagree on the exact specification of 'meta-rushing'.

The comment made towards Essy was of an Administration telling a player what they can expect if they continue to 'metarush'. It's not that as staff we dislike Essy as a Commander - it's not about win ratios, it's about how we class actions that seem apparent overlap with meta-knowledge.

We had a lot of discussion of In-Character Facts leading to an Assumption versus OOC Metaknowledge guiding a player on a 'walk-through'. We are still determining what we consider to be classed as 'metarushing'. To me the comment was merely a warning of things to come.

I do agree that a Manager will have to make a ruling and most likely an official amendment to the rules to include such a definition. Look at my comments as you may, look at anyone's comments as you may - we're working through this and they're be a ruling - either that of which that comes after an appeal or before-hand.

And again, it's not that we as staff have some grudge against Essy - I'm not sure about Individual's experiences with the player and staff - but there's not some secret hunt-squad trying to get them lynched for having a large marine-win ratio - simply a misunderstanding.

[Asmodius]

>hey, why is there an UNIDENTIFIED VESSEL on the MAP of a PRISON where a DISTRESS SIGNAL was sent from. seems odd, lets check it out

"d-don't. we'll ban you"

all i have to give to the conversation, continue bickering

[Casany]

While I believe that many points provided by people above are true and that; in certain scenarios, it is logical for the Marines to ignore the context of the Marine's visit, I believe that Commanders should not be able to rush or charge towards the hive. While I'm no developer or admin, I think that the purpose of the game is not to win, but to have fun in the journey to win. You cannot achieve enjoyment for most of the server if the round ends fourty or an hour in.

To illustrate my point further, as a Corporate Liaison I wouldn't be able to make certain roleplay situations possible, and especially as a Marine I would not enjoy charging towards the hive and just running and gunning, as Coat McMutton said, "don't make me your pawn you need to gain a meaningless victory." However, this being said, some people enjoy winning surprizingly. We should have a balance of both worlds, it is more enjoyable in my own opinion to win when the odds are all against the Marines.

That being said, I do not believe Commanders or Marines should be punished for attempting to break the early-round meta of artificially holding back, but at the same time allowing the Xenos time to prepare or expand themselfs. A new system would be recommended, but as seeing the developers already have enough on their plate as is it would be forever until we can.

Just my unwanted opinion, hopefully this gets resolved in a way that makes both sides happy.

The problem is with the map itself. Either marines rush and win early or wait and get rolled over by the xenos. Either way the round isn’t fun. I don’t like being killed with no chance of victory, but I also don’t like rolling over xenos. It’s a lose lose scenario, and it requires a mapping change

[I_Solve_Practical_Problems]

I played Aestel's LV round and then spectated the Prison round during their triple victory streak last night and I definitely think it was a little suspect. To elaborate, I use a two point system when I'm CO to determine whether or not my plan/response is 'meta'.

1. I need a clear and objective piece of IC evidence. Someone saying 'the lizards ran west' is not clear or objective. 5 marines getting captured and saying 'there's a hive in civilian quarters' or a survivor saying 'the xenos are in lambda' are. This might be the most obvious step, as if I do get PM'd by an admin, I can point to a specific place in the logs.
2. I need a level of escalation. This is partially out of a respect for xenos, as well as a desire to slow the round down a little for RP. For example, on a classic Big Red round, I might send Delta to set up power in engineering at 12:30. At 12:33, they send reports of xenos, and by 12:38, the hive is set upon them so at 12:40 I might send a squad to give them backup. Generally, this becomes a stalemate and so at 12:50, I might maneuver a third squad to flank so that the early skirmishes turn into a full fledged battle by 13:00. Maybe I'll send in QRF at 13:30 from the FOB if the fight needs the extra manpower. What doesn't pass this test is sending three squads immediately to the crashed ship, or on one flank after fog drop on LV. Remember, as far as marines know, xenos are just dumb lizards with acid blood, and should really just be considered a nuisance until they bring ravs and boilers to bear later on.

Now, in the grander sense, I think things become a little blurred because you do want all the squads doing something, plus there isn't really a lot to do. Unless you're doing something novel like a split deployment on Ice, you really only have two objectives: power and tcomms/FOB. That means there will always be two squads scouting and two squads on an objective, which means the hive will be found relatively quickly on maps like Big Red because a squad each on engineering and dorms will find out where the xenos are coming from quickly. I also think that it makes perfect sense to send two squads to the crashed ship on Prison because it's a giant spaceship sticking out of the side. I do, however, think three squads is excessive because it means that the marginal utility of having a third squad on an already saturated scouting patrol outweighs the obvious IC benefit of power, looking at part 2 of my litmus test.

[Torrentia]

What do you considered low-level staff? Everyone Moderator and Below, Admin and Below?

We have a staff-chat in which ALL of Staff has access too and as a staff-team we use it in difficult circumstances to bring up different points of views so that we are united to the players. This situation and the following situations dropped in the aspect that some of staff agree and disagree on the exact specification of 'meta-rushing'.

The comment made towards Essy was of an Administration telling a player what they can expect if they continue to 'metarush'. It's not that as staff we dislike Essy as a Commander - it's not about win ratios, it's about how we class actions that seem apparent overlap with meta-knowledge.

We had a lot of discussion of In-Character Facts leading to an Assumption versus OOC Metaknowledge guiding a player on a 'walk-through'. We are still determining what we consider to be classed as 'metarushing'. To me the comment was merely a warning of things to come.

I do agree that a Manager will have to make a ruling and most likely an official amendment to the rules to include such a definition. Look at my comments as you may, look at anyone's comments as you may - we're working through this and they're be a ruling - either that of which that comes after an appeal or before-hand.

And again, it's not that we as staff have some grudge against Essy - I'm not sure about Individual's experiences with the player and staff - but there's not some secret hunt-squad trying to get them lynched for having a large marine-win ratio - simply a misunderstanding.

I wasn't accusing anyone of having a grudge against anyone. I was simply saying perhaps it is inappropriate for random staff to state their unofficial, personal opinion on the matter because it may be misinterpreted as a staff ruling. If you are still determining the ins and outs of metarushing in staffchat, simply say so. The plethora of different views from staff present anything but a united front.

[Lorem123]

Among other comments - there's a little bit more than that to it.

Really it's still being reviewed:

What REALLY is metarushing?
What do we consider meta-rushing?
Where do we cross-the-line?
Limit it Mechanically (like LV's fog making it literally impossible or changing podlock times.)?

The whole situation(s) are really still being considered, it's as a forewarning i'm sure to becareful with these sorts of things.

Sending two squads to the crashed ship just to follow xenos to the hive is just metagaming, and should be ending now. Continuing in that vein will just lead to bans over metagaming which mentions this as ramboing.

^ This right here is a pretty clear threat of a ban if Rose continues to use tactics that are effective against xeno mains, who expect the marines to play like retards otherwise it's 'metagaming' for using tactics that they do not like.

[Nantei]

So as someone who generally likes Aestel as a commander, let me chime in here a bit now that things are starting to get into a stalemate.

Does Aestel play to win? Yes, very clearly.
Is that a bad thing? Really depends on the person. But to me, I don't think she crosses the line of what should be acceptable. Sometimes it can be questionable, but here I think it's pretty cut and dry. I think it is obviously absurd to expect marines who have but one single direction to go, not to go that direction. Sending three squads makes perfect sense to me, but I can understand the argument against it. Not only is there no sense to keeping the extra squad back, but similarly that's exactly how marines operate, overwhelming force.

In my opinion, coming down on Aestel is putting the burden on the wrong person. Prison station has desperately needed a redesign for a long time now. There's a lot of ways to fix this. The simplest is just making the podlocks take longer, and I personally don't like that. The hardest, but likely most satisfying, is just making Prison larger and adding more variety for hives. Xenos are pigeonholed into one location, and that is what makes Big Red a great map, and Prison a bad one.

[Bath Salts Addict]

Oh boy so here we go.

According to staff, Xenos doing the following:

[*]Hiding bodies (T H E L I G H T S)
[*]Melting all the windows in hydro at LV before the Marines arrive to make an inevitable Hydro defence easier
[*]Immediately rushing SD as soon as they crash in the Almayer despite the aliens having no idea what a self-destruct even is
[*]Roaming the planet and smashing open lockers to look for survivors because they know only four survivors spawn at roundstart
[*]Tacklespamming and killing a B18 or flamer spec by devouring them slowly because you somehow know how much of a threat they can be and/or how much effort it would be to facehug them.
[*]Hanging around LZ2 before marines drop and then melting the Normandy's CAS weaponry despite CAS having never been called before.

Is not metagaming.

According to staff Marines doing the following: (or at least Solarmare since he seems to be the only one giving a rat's ass, did you notice that the majority of staff posts are neutral on the subject aside from the ones that mostly play Xeno?)

[*]Following a fleeing, damaged enemy force back to their hive in which there is no feasible way to escape en masse in case they get boxed in by an attacking force, an area which is highlighted and shown on the maps in great detail.
[*]Scouting an entire AO and deducing that the only possible base of location for OpFor is also the same spot they're leading you to because xenos know jack shit about feinting and subterfuge.
[*]Marines completing their objectives in a fast and reasonable manner like actual trained soldiers instead of 2D pixel men made to look like soldiers.
[*]Emphasizing speed to deal with a threat that has captured Marines and is holding them prisoner, and possibly has dozens of civilians held prisoner as well

Is all metagaming.

Is it just me, or is anyone else seeing the sheer level of disconnect between what xenos are allowed to consistently do and marines are? If you're going to get mad at marines for winning use a same consistent tactic in a linear map, then hold the other side to the same fucking standards.

How is Aestel's routine any different from, say, the Marine's usual routine on a different map like LV? At roundstart, Marines drop at Nexus, deploy an FOB, fix power, walking around a bit, set up at Hydro (how do they know the xeno hive is beyond the fog? REEEEE) and rush across the river to fight xenos as soon as the fog drops. The only difference between Aestel's prison strategy and the usual timeline of events in LV is that Xenos consistently stomp Marines on LV, and so no one takes issue with it. The moment Marines are able to consistently do something and succeed over 40% of the time, that's when people start getting their jimmies rustled.

If you're going to nitpick a few things the Marines do and class it as metagaming, or metarushing, then hold the other side to the same fucking standards and stop adminning subjectively, pretzelling the rules to justify your salt

[MattAtlas]

There is no other strategy that works on Prison Station.

This would not be an issue if the vents were working; Xenos couldn't get nearly enough larvae.

Perhaps if Prison, like Big Red or LV or Ice, had more than one possible hive location, this wouldn't happen so much.

Perhaps if the crashed ship weren't so close to the only hive location possible, this wouldn't happen so much.

This is not an Aestell thing. This is a Prison Station thing. Pretty much every CO does this - or builds a giant onion fortress at LZ1 that drags the round out to 3+ hours - because trying to play Prison with the flow it was intended to have, doesn't even remotely work.

And this is the true reason of the problem, not what Aestell does or whatever. There's literally one good hive location and it's RIGHT NEXT to the most suspicious thing on the map that COs (rightfully) send squads to check out. If it's relocated to be more towards the center of the map these issues wouldn't exist honestly.

[Rohesie]

Lets not forget there's a balance issue right now. Before the introductions of the new castes marines were winning every round and discussions about marine metarushes were happening. Then the new castes were introduced and voi-la, xenos kick marine asses every time, the new topic about xeno metarush (with Symb doing really effective strategies). Now we are back at the point in where marines are stomping xenos most rounds, with the removal of the NASCAR queen. And guess what kind of debate is back?

This is cyclical. Just food for thought.

[Casany]

Lets not forget there's a balance issue right now. Before the introductions of the new castes marines were winning every round and discussions about marine metarushes were happening. Then the new castes were introduced and voi-la, xenos kick marine asses every time, the new topic about xeno metarush (with Symb doing really effective strategies). Now we are back at the point in where marines are stomping xenos most rounds, with the removal of the NASCAR queen. And guess what kind of debate is back?

This is cyclical. Just food for thought.

Well, marines usually don't stop on maps like Big Red, Ice, or LV. Literally Prison is the only map marines can stomp reliably. You could make a case for Big Red but even then most rounds end in marine defeat. So it's just not right to say marines are stomping xenos most rounds when in reality they only stomp xenos on Prison station, and only usually when competent COs are on

[Chaznoodles]

Map design literally forces this, unless you'd rather marines just walk back and turtle for the entire round.

[Symbiosis]

Map design literally forces this, unless you'd rather marines just walk back and turtle for the entire round.

^Bingo

Xenos should STILL stomp.

The issue is competence, plain and simple. That’s what is slightly infuriating as a former Xeno only player. The game is still tilted to Xenos.

The problem is a lot of Xenos are hit or miss on general competence.

The weight of a BAD t3 is a heavier negative on the Xeno side than the weight of a bad Spec. Hopefully with the Queen nerf fewer players will play Queen which will lead to a better overall Hive organization.

[ThesoldierLLJK]

The problem is a lot of Xenos are hit or miss on general competence.

I think it's unfair to punish the players for the "Rambo" rule when the Xeno force attacks an entire squad, and the squad pushes back. Is it the marines fault that the Xeno's lead them back to the hive, and don't try to run away and avoid showing the marines where said hive is.

[Imperator_Titan]

[*]Melting all the windows in hydro at LV before the Marines arrive to make an inevitable Hydro defence easier

Is not metagaming.

Just gonna butt in here. I have no interest in the thread buuuut melting window frames at hydro before the marines drop is infact metagaming.

[ThesoldierLLJK]

Just gonna butt in here. I have no interest in the thread buuuut melting window frames at hydro before the marines drop is infact metagaming.

How about melting all the medical vendors on the planet at round start? I see this happen all the time.

[Rohesie]

Well, marines usually don't stop on maps like Big Red, Ice, or LV. Literally Prison is the only map marines can stomp reliably. You could make a case for Big Red but even then most rounds end in marine defeat. So it's just not right to say marines are stomping xenos most rounds when in reality they only stomp xenos on Prison station, and only usually when competent COs are on

Not really. It was either yesterday or the day before that marines won before the 13:00 mark in LV. There is nothing to stop them from stomping in Big Red either as soon as they know or deduce the location of the hive, as the podlocks can be C4'ed, and they very often do it. Even in Ice all it takes is a 3-squad deployment in DS 2.

Sure, prison is smaller and more linear. Can't deny that. It doesn't mean it's the only possible strategy, albeit it's the most efficient one.

I'm biased, though. I like prison. As a SL I can do a lot of flanking in ways LV/Big Red caves and Ice ladders don't allow me to. There is always a way around a bottleneck. It allows for far greater mobility.

Xenos should STILL stomp.

The issue is competence, plain and simple. That’s what is slightly infuriating as a former Xeno only player. The game is still tilted to Xenos.

The problem is a lot of Xenos are hit or miss on general competence.

The weight of a BAD t3 is a heavier negative on the Xeno side than the weight of a bad Spec. Hopefully with the Queen nerf fewer players will play Queen which will lead to a better overall Hive organization.

I've seen a lot of marine stomps and some really contested xeno victories lately. In some of those stomps you were a late queen. Are you sure about what you are saying? The win ratio as it stands right now is heavily in favor of marines, regardless of commander.

I'm always suspicious when people blame it on competence. If one side wins consistently after a fair period of time that hypothesis must be discarded.

[Casany]

~snip~

Honestly every round I've been on these past two weeks that HASN'T been prison has been either a xeno win or hard fought marine victory. Maybe I don't play enough, maybe I'm just unlucky.

[Symbiosis]

I've seen a lot of marine stomps and some really contested xeno victories lately. In some of those stomps you were a late queen. Are you sure about what you are saying? The win ratio as it stands right now is heavily in favor of marines, regardless of commander.

I'm always suspicious when people blame it on competence. If one side wins consistently after a fair period of time that hypothesis must be discarded.

Very confident. The issue is the Queen most of the time. T3’s throwing their lives away being the 2nd cause of failures.

Lots of first time Queens that don’t De-Ovi and help squash the initial unga rush. Other first time Queens that de-evolve T3 pointlessly. The time I was a late Queen I gibbed 3 Specs and a Smartgunner without a single T3 at my side. As a basic ass Queen.

The Queen nerf to speed means she should be able to lay eggs whenever IMHO. That will help a lot.

[Sleepy Retard]

I've seen a lot of marine stomps and some really contested xeno victories lately. In some of those stomps you were a late queen. Are you sure about what you are saying? The win ratio as it stands right now is heavily in favor of marines, regardless of commander.

I'm always suspicious when people blame it on competence. If one side wins consistently after a fair period of time that hypothesis must be discarded.

Yes. Competence is a crippling issue - in every round where there has been a marine stomp there's SUPER BAD issues with the xenos. The first round I played that was a stomp, a hivelord, boiler, two drones, and a runner died before fog was down Mostly at 12:30. They also hived in a spot with 3 OPEN attack directions, not small hallways.

Another round, the xenos were hidden in research. We got distracted and ran away from research. Until one of them melted the pod locks. Once the pod locks were melted, we walked in. Marine stomp.

Another LV round the queen deovi'd as fog dropped. She died at 13:20. Fog dropped about 12:45 so that's quite a while with no evolution. Super crippling. Marine stomp, xeno incompetent issue.

Here's an issue I didn't mention in every single case - the xenos didn't communicate and work as a team enough, ensuring that they get rofl stomped. I've noticed my average xeno kills per game went up by 3 or 4 kills, and I would like to point out to people that I'm using a shitty craptop with horrible fps and bad usb input. I've been horribly gimped since the last time I could play on a decent computer. I don't think I got better, I'm pretty sure the xenos have gotten worse - which they have.

Am I surprised? Nope. It's always been like this. Three to six xenos carry the round into a win while the rest of the xenos are fucking garbage and worthless, only suitable for cannon fodder. These rounds usually last two hours if the queen is okay. If the queen is competent as well, they don't last as long - critical mass of retards is still critical mass, and will overwhelm a single squad