Formal Ruling on the Definition of Metarushing

[NethIafins]

Honestly I’d rather have them give us a time that we’re allowed to attack at rather than give vague answers.

And we are back to the point I said before. If time is given BOTH sides will attack at the same time. Every round will be the same

[Casany]

And we are back to the point I said before. If time is given BOTH sides will attack at the same time. Every round will be the same

Well, it’s either that or ban competent CO players based on interpretation of a rule that shouldn’t exist anymore. And I’d rather keep the competent COs

[Symbiosis]

There is currently no tool to make 3 squad early unga disasterous. There is no tool to make early beno camp at LZ disasterous.

Give me Queen and I’ll crunch the first. As a Marine, it falls down to your Specs and Smartgunners in this particular situation. If they’re competent they’ll punish an LZ1 hive, because generally the squads are together and stronger as such.

The reason the Unga is so easy to punish is because Marines stretch and spread out naturally. Stretched thin they crumble easy.

That said - you made some solid points. I tend to personally enjoy the RP side of things a lot more as a Marine. The Xenos exist in my mind as an antagonist, the tools for RP dont exist (as much) due to the lack of permanent nesting and overall Marine numbers...

I understand the playerside frustration with the recent “meta” rulings and I’m sure you’re more in tune with the reasonings behind such rulings/notes. Communication could be better, perhaps on both sides. The only thing I’d want to say (earnestly) is that the players feel a bit jaded and powerless... the answers we want aren’t to bend the rules, but to prevent crossing a line that will get us in trouble.

[NethIafins]

Well, it’s either that or ban competent CO players based on interpretation of a rule that shouldn’t exist anymore. And I’d rather keep the competent COs

Well I hope that competent CO players try to fit the rules, a so-to-say stand up to the challenge.

The competency you talk about here is entirely based on you (yes yo as a player) playing few years fighting same alien forces. But the CO you play as meets this force for the first time.

Yeah maybe we should drop the "first contact" story altogether, but the game you (and me in this case) have in your head is a completely different one

[Casany]

Well I hope that competent CO players try to fit the rules, a so-to-say stand up to the challenge

And this is the root of the problem. Players don’t know how to fit into the rules because they aren’t clearly defined well enough. And by allowing so much interpretation you leave leeway for mods and admins to abuse their position against people they view as toxic or undesirable.

How can someone try to not break the rules if they don’t even know what they are. It’s like telling someone not to cross the line in the sand before you even draw it

[NethIafins]

Give me Queen and I’ll crunch the first. As a Marine, it falls down to your Specs and Smartgunners in this particular situation. If they’re competent they’ll punish an LZ1 hive, because generally the squads are together and stronger as such.

several of your t3s or spec/smarts can be dumbos that happen to accidentally get a job they set to high. You shouldn't put the fun of an entire hive/marine force in hand of few players because those players may be terrible. That's why we sometimes have to step in

I understand the playerside frustration with the recent “meta” rulings and I’m sure you’re more in tune with the reasonings behind such rulings/notes. Communication could be better, perhaps on both sides. The only thing I’d want to say (earnestly) is that the players feel a bit jaded and powerless... the answers we want aren’t to bend the rules, but to prevent crossing a line that will get us in trouble.

I'm telling you, every time any of us has suspicions about metarushing, we get on 1-2 hour spiral talk in slack and/or mchat. We have people (most of the time) on both sides and we argue and argue and ARGUE until we reach a conclusion about THIS PARTICULAR INSTANCE. Ofcourse during the process we have to ask everyone involved to get more info, and ofcourse if we see in notes that almost every round you try is like this, we have to take action

[Casany]

I'm telling you, every time any of us has suspicions about metarushing, we get on 1-2 hour spiral talk in slack and/or mchat. We have people (most of the time) on both sides and we argue and argue and ARGUE until we reach a conclusion about THIS PARTICULAR INSTANCE. Ofcourse during the process we have to ask everyone involved to get more info, and ofcourse if we see in notes that almost every round you try is like this, we have to take action

But admins still take action and give notes whilst discussions are still happening, as what happened to Aestel. I don’t care what discussions happen, I shouldn’t get punished nor should anyone else be punished for something that the staff team doesn’t even agree on. It’s stupid and abusive to do otherwise.

[Symbiosis]

I'm telling you, every time any of us has suspicions about metarushing, we get on 1-2 hour spiral talk in slack and/or mchat. We have people (most of the time) on both sides and we argue and argue and ARGUE until we reach a conclusion about THIS PARTICULAR INSTANCE. Ofcourse during the process we have to ask everyone involved to get more info, and ofcourse if we see in notes that almost every round you try is like this, we have to take action

I can tell you that the FIRST time I was accused of meta rushing I was smacked with a 7 day ban. Zero notes on metarushing - if you look at my note history and how long I’ve been here, the rule breaks I’ve committed are minor or subjective based.

It was overturned after community outcry. I’m lucky enough to have been around long enough to warrant such outcry. Some players are not as lucky.

The last bit is why I don’t play CO anymore (and the fact the last time I did was was wrongfully arrested and a DEATH SQUAD sent to wipe the Marines out) - if they interpret the way I play as Meta rushing I could get banned again. I like to play a ground pounding CO, there’s zero terminals for the CO or XO, so the ground leader feels best to me.

I always split my squads, use basic tactical knowledge to position the forces in a way that each can be assisted by one another, and I use maps to help with such. I change things up often, where the FOB is, etc, but I always go down. How long until I’m ousted if the Xenos are bad and Marines are good?

Here’s the report if you’re unaware of it - http://cm-ss13.com/viewtop ... c183b44d94

[NethIafins]

And by allowing so much interpretation you leave leeway for mods and admins to abuse their position against people they view as toxic or undesirable.

This is a very slippery slope for this conversation. The one, I see, that is hit too many times in this topic and others that were before this one. Most of the staff I see moderating with me leave their bias behind when they try to PM people. Some even completely dropping ahelp if they feel conflict of interest exists

Now if your NOTES from several different mods/admins tell about "difficult behaviour" you might not be "viewed as toxic or undesirable", you might well be that

How can someone try to not break the rules if they don’t even know what they are. It’s like telling someone not to cross the line in the sand before you even draw it

We don't ban people for the first offence (except 18+ and grief-logging). You seem to put too much negative value into notes. If we tell you after convo about your metarush "do not do that again/often" and you say "sure but what could I do?" or just say "fine", that will be the end of it - a note for US to know that you DID that.

[NethIafins]

I can tell you that the FIRST time I was accused of meta rushing I was smacked with a 7 day ban. Zero notes on metarushing - if you look at my note history and how long I’ve been here, the rule breaks I’ve committed are minor or subjective based.

It was overturned after community outcry. I’m lucky enough to have been around long enough to warrant such outcry. Some players are not as lucky.

It is indeed strange. Lesson learned I guess? (for all)

[Symbiosis]

It is indeed strange. Lesson learned I guess? (for all)

I hope so.

If notes and bans were specific (Aestell sending troops to the ship) and not cumulative I think we’d not have an issue.

[Casany]

We don't ban people for the first offence (except 18+ and grief-logging). You seem to put too much negative value into notes. If we tell you after convo about your metarush "do not do that again/often" and you say "sure but what could I do?" or just say "fine", that will be the end of it - a note for US to know that you DID that.

Except you do, symb just posted that you do and provided the report. And if you didn’t even know this shows a serious lack of communication and agreement in the staff team that should be handled.

[NethIafins]

Except you do, symb just posted that you do and provided the report. And if you didn’t even know this shows a serious lack of communication and agreement in the staff team that should be handled.

I don't. The staff I "train" don't.

What happened to Symb turned into a report as should every such incident

Also Aestel got the CO

[NethIafins]

If notes and bans were specific (Aestell sending troops to the ship) and not cumulative I think we’d not have an issue.

As server grows and we get more and more stuff that is thrown our way finally figured, I think we can eventually make a better note system part for our CoC so it works better for all of us

[updated, fuck my english]

[Gray]

I don't know if there's an official round length goal, but it's obviously something around 2-3 hours.

Forcing rounds to last longer than they should is not healthy practice, IMO.

Ending rounds faster is much better. The goal in games is that everyone has fun. However, we all know that not everyone will have fun in SS13. Dying happens and dying sucks.

But, I feel like the CM team as a whole have their priorities wrong. They're focusing on the narrative, the story, the lore, instead of the player's enjoyment of the game. You don't make the game to shove the lore down people's throats, you make games so people have fun playing them and a lot of people have fun fighting. Forcing rounds to go on longer, keeping dead people out of the game longer, kind of goes against the philosophy of having people enjoy your games. Especially when dying is such a commonplace thing to happen in CM.

[kroack]

As it stands currently, let it be known that we have enforced at the developer level a 25 minute timer from the start of the round to PREVENT metarushing which they clearly deem to be adequate. There is also a series of podlocks/fog locking out large portions of the map to PREVENT MECHANICALLY metarushing. This has all been considered at the developer level, and yet a player is being threatened with bans BECAUSE they use strategies that have been deemed 'too effective' by certain members the admin staff who are known Xeno mains.

As soon as I read this in the op, I just want to disregard everything in this thread.

[Aestel]

Also Aestel got the CO

No thanks to the mod team, I am 90% sure that had everything to do with Bmc getting someone to take a second look. Everyone the entire way up the chain refused to even speak of it.

While I think the conversation is getting slightly derailed, I am still adamant about getting that concrete ruling and would like to return to that.

[Aestel]

As soon as I read this in the op, I just want to disregard everything in this thread.

Can only blame xeno wins on marine incompetence for so long before we use the same tactic the other way. But thanks for your contribution to the conversation.

[Casany]

I don't. The staff I "train" don't.

What happened to Symb turned into a report as should every such incident

Also Aestel got the CO

Yes, he made a staff report. Nothing was done to the staff that did it besides a slap on the wrist. It was more of a ban appeal.

If I wanted something done I’d make a staff report. If I just wanted my ban removed I’d make an appeal. He made a report and wanted something done. Nothing was done.

People don’t view staff in high regard for a lot of reasons. I personally think it’s one giant circlejerk and echo chamber, and the logs Symb posted in another report validate my beliefs. If staff were maybe a bit more open and you didn’t allow people to get away with this maybe people would start trusting staff more. As of now what you have is a bunch of staff posting their personal opinion on an issue that shouldn’t be based on opinion. You have staff who are shooting for 2-3 hour rounds when Apop himself once stated that the goal was for 1:30-2 hour rounds. You have disconnected heads who think the entire playerbase who disagrees with them, they’re just toxic and salty. You have mods who punish marines for being smart, coddle xenos for being dumb. You said that staff sometimes get involved because relying on one person to shift the round isn’t fun, but I’ve never seen an instance of staff intervening to help the marines when they’re steamrolled. You have admins who bend the rules to validate their beliefs, you have admins and mods who egg on bad MP players.

And these are just a few examples as to why I’m a bit distrusting of the staff team. They used to be good, and have standards. I think some staff members are great, but the team as a whole (at least the people in charge) have done nothing but feed into the belief I and many other players have about the staff team.

I got a bit off topic, on a tangent. My point is, we’re asking for one solid in a server where everything is a grey area that mods have final say on depending on what they believe. Players just want rules that can’t be twisted to get rid of people. Just like people want laws that the MPs can’t pretzel to arrest people for an hour who deserve 10 minutes. But instead all we eat is strawmen and staff refusing to state solid answers. Why? I have no clue, maybe they like the grey area. But I know that the majority of the playerbase, at least on he forums, do not. Listen to the playerbase for once.

[HBlokkum]

I'm telling you, every time any of us has suspicions about metarushing, we get on 1-2 hour spiral talk in slack and/or mchat. We have people (most of the time) on both sides and we argue and argue and ARGUE until we reach a conclusion about THIS PARTICULAR INSTANCE.

That right there should tell you there’s a problem with the current system

[Sulaboy]

That right there should tell you there’s a problem with the current system

I don't see a problem with a group of people discussing an instance of a situation to reach a consensus. Many variables can effect a situation, and having the admins argue if the instance is or is not a problem would be the best way to get a clear answer instead of an individual's ruling.

[Casany]

I don't see a problem with a group of people discussing an instance of a situation to reach a consensus. Many variables can effect a situation, and having the admins argue if the instance is or is not a problem would be the best way to get a clear answer instead of an individual's ruling.

And you are quite correct here. The problem is that no punishment should be given out until a consensus is reached, but there are punishments being handed out before it’s been fully discussed.

[Sulaboy]

And you are quite correct here. The problem is that no punishment should be given out until a consensus is reached, but there are punishments being handed out before it’s been fully discussed.

A major problem with how this is dealt with is the time necessary to investigate a situation like this. A ruling has to be made early on when something is happening to stop it from affecting the round further. I'm not in the loop about every punishment staff has handed out about meta gaming so I can't comment on that, but from what I've seen if they've made a mistake in a ruling it usually gets sorted out.

A lot of this conflict has been caused by the transition the server is still in. It takes time to adapt, and to work out all the kinks about everything. In the end the server should be a better place, and situations like this will be how the server gets to that better place. Still time is the important thing to remember. Players and staff still adjusting, and the game is being changed to fit this new direction.

[Casany]

A major problem with how this is dealt with is the time necessary to investigate a situation like this. A ruling has to be made early on when something is happening to stop it from affecting the round further. I'm not in the loop about every punishment staff has handed out about meta gaming so I can't comment on that, but from what I've seen if they've made a mistake in a ruling it usually gets sorted out.

A lot of this conflict has been caused by the transition the server is still in. It takes time to adapt, and to work out all the kinks about everything. In the end the server should be a better place, and situations like this will be how the server gets to that better place. Still time is the important thing to remember. Players and staff still adjusting, and the game is being changed to fit this new direction.

In situations like grief, 18+ and metacomms I agree but in a situation that requires discussion it usually doesn’t need to be taken care of instantly or it wouldn’t require discussion. There are mechanical locks preventing Metarushing on all the maps, whether that just be the danger (Ice) the distance and need for supplies, and tactical disadvantage (Red) or the actual walls (LV, Prison). Metarushing shouldn’t be punished until the staff have all agreed on a verdict, unless it is undeniably meta (like sending marines groundside by 12:10, attacking by 12:15 and winning, which can’t even happen anymore). That’s my point, they should discuss it fully and come to a conclusion. Especially when xenos do the same thing but aren’t punished for it ever.

[Symbiosis]

A major problem with how this is dealt with is the time necessary to investigate a situation like this. A ruling has to be made early on when something is happening to stop it from affecting the round further. I'm not in the loop about every punishment staff has handed out about meta gaming so I can't comment on that, but from what I've seen if they've made a mistake in a ruling it usually gets sorted out.

A lot of this conflict has been caused by the transition the server is still in. It takes time to adapt, and to work out all the kinks about everything. In the end the server should be a better place, and situations like this will be how the server gets to that better place. Still time is the important thing to remember. Players and staff still adjusting, and the game is being changed to fit this new direction.

I agree with Casany here.

When a player shows you something is “strong” and makes the round move in an unusual or undesirable way, you should thank them... not shame and/or ban/note them.

I saw it with Spheretech and Surr on the marine side.

Do you know how many warnings I got for being robust as a Xeno? Wiping out the ENTIRE Almayer shipside Crew as an Elite Hunter before the Marines left the planet? Or all the times I’ve just walloped as the Queen?

Zero. My warnings as a Xeno were for an unwritten rule and a rule that was in a changelog back in 2016.