Formal Ruling on the Definition of Metarushing

[NethIafins]

People don’t view staff in high regard for a lot of reasons. I personally think it’s one giant circlejerk and echo chamber, and the logs Symb posted in another report validate my beliefs.

Many players tell staff memebers to Fuck Off when we politely ask them to stop spamming/doing crowd-grief etc.
I'm pretty sad that whatever happened that time happened, but those talks - they supposed to be completely private and some staff members are trying to vent themselves.

Moderating is not an easy task, you are getting bored for 6 hours of usual stuff, and then you have few minutes of super-duper activity where you HAVE to act properly or you will be hated by community.
Do shit once, and the public face is ruined

And these are just a few examples as to why I’m a bit distrusting of the staff team. They used to be good, and have standards. I think some staff members are great, but the team as a whole (at least the people in charge) have done nothing but feed into the belief I and many other players have about the staff team.

Standards became stronger with time actually, but the staff size grew. Check our current stafflist. It is 3-4 times as big as it was before. We have members with different characters

I got a bit off topic, on a tangent. My point is, we’re asking for one solid in a server where everything is a grey area that mods have final say on depending on what they believe.

It is more of a case law, if we see that something shitty for one of the sides becomes a trend - we curate it until it doesn't or becomes acceptable. It's either that or we change our server rules as often as we change our code.

Players just want rules that can’t be twisted to get rid of people. Just like people want laws that the MPs can’t pretzel to arrest people for an hour who deserve 10 minutes.

Getting rid of all people is never our goal. The goal is defined as "We’re a server focused on the enjoyment of the players.", so we curate people's behavior. Either by telling them that the playstyle they have doesn't match what we think at the moment is good for a server (which you can say is decided without listening to the whole community, but read further)

But instead all we eat is strawmen and staff refusing to state solid answers. Why? I have no clue, maybe they like the grey area.

I honestly don't want any gray area. It takes a lot of time to decide on gray area questions and most of the flak staff gets is from this. BUT you can't define everything in rules, otherwise they will be 20 pages long

But I know that the majority of the playerbase, at least on he forums, do not. Listen to the playerbase for once.

And here... If I post in OOC "ahelp if you hate metarushes" or dchat "press F to pay respect to metarushes" I will get 50% troll answers, 25% answers from people who see no issue and 25% from those who see issue. Community is split because whatever we discuss here has no clear answer.

When is okay to attack without being flagged for metarushing? Maybe we can come up with formula that takes MMR of every player on every side, some random events and also add to that unpredictability of what survivor can say if rescued.
How can I evade any notes? Ahelp before doing something incredibly unique or that can be viewed as metarushing. Don't worry, we don't tell another team. HECK maybe if you AHELP shit before you try it, I might give you more slack with metaattack. HECK HECK if you ahelp and admin takes your ahelp, he can even to something fancy like allow you to do full shock deployment early on with a balanced thing for aliens

As you can see - there is no answer for your prayers of "well defined scale", and sometimes gray area IS good

If you want to be the change - join mod team. Tell other mods to cut it off if they slack players in mchat. Be the force for good, I'll be proud to guide any of you.


[some updates done, because it's 12am and I can't think straight after work]

[NethIafins]

Do you know how many warnings I got for being robust as a Xeno? Wiping out the ENTIRE Almayer shipside Crew as an Elite Hunter before the Marines left the planet? Or all the times I’ve just walloped as the Queen?

I was going to warn you, unfortunately when our internal discussion finished you already left (that was when you did that for 3 round in a row) and by our rules I did not note you (since offence is "suspected powergaming" and not pure griefing/erp/etc)

But I was going to at least talk to you

[that was about memehunter, boy I can't think straight]

[NethIafins]

I mean if you say, "I'M FEELING IT, ON DROP I'M GONNA CHECK LAMBDA BECAUSE I ROLLED DICE AND IT GOT 20", fuck it, I might even say - "fine, do it", if or if-not hive is there on b-red

[Solarmare]

Being staff won't change much more than you having to enforce something you disagree with if you have an issue with something. The main ways would be gitlab, or the rules draft suggestion thread as far as any change goes.

[Sulaboy]

-Snip

I'd rather a staff member speak about punishments because that would be past my knowledge.

The mechanical locks are bad. Adding more poses the same situation as locking pill bottles, and the skill system. The current ones ingame shouldn't be taken as a ruling over what is allowed, and I have a feeling that we'll be seeing some change with them in the future.

As for staff punishing people who play well. I don't play this game to win. I play this game to make a story. I actually like the rules against metarushing. Sure it feels nice to stop the hive especially back before the tank when delta was just steam rolling. I do have to say that back then It seemed you could play at a slower pace and still have a fighting chance (that may be due to summer rather than the changes). I don't really want to play rounds like that all the time. I like that this game revolves around talking to people, and that every other character has a person behind them. It's hard for me to put this into words, but I don't want the focus of this game to be just on winning. At the end of every round it doesn't even say who won because it doesn't matter, what mattered is the impact your character left.




I've just gone on a bit of a messy rant, but the main thing is that winning isn't the point of the game. That's why the rule exists. In my eyes it isn't for balance, it's to preserve the appeal of the game. (It's late here so please forgive this)

[NethIafins]

Being staff won't change much more than you having to enforce something you disagree with if you have an issue with something. The main ways would be gitlab, or the rules draft suggestion thread as far as any change goes.

if you are not a solo mod, you can avoid ahelps or situations you disagree with

What I'm saying, some people need to see how we work internally, what comes during every serious ahelp, how we deal with shit... and maybe then players will understand why it is sometimes so goddamn difficult

[Torrentia]

>Wake up
>Thread has 3 more pages now
>Excited that we finally get our official ruling
>MFW it's more of the same

[NethIafins]

>Wake up
>Thread has 3 more pages now
>Excited that we finally get our official ruling
>MFW it's more of the same

Want the clearest ruling of them all?

Ahelp about any attacks on another's side base before 12:45 with reason why (be it survivor or "just checking") and be ready to get negative response sometimes

There, done

Maybe someday we will have more clear ruling, but I doubt everyone will be happy about it and that it will work for every map and every pop size

[I_Solve_Practical_Problems]

I think there are two strands that are being discussed here that deserve to have separate but equal attention, there's the meta problem but then there's also the rushing problem. Now, I'm not staff so this is just my observations as a CO/SO main. For the purposes of my post, I'd like to introduce two terms: rushing and metarushing. In my opinion, rushing is where there are few if any reasonable IC justifications for an action and the only purpose is to secure a win through powergaming means. On the other hand, a metarush can be justifiable given proper IC reasons and only becomes foul play if done so without RP and IC justification. Therefore, a rush will always be unjust but what would be a metarush can be justified if not done for meta reasons.

To address the rushing problem, I think mechanical solutions are perfectly fine: the dropship lock or fog both stop rushing (but not metarushing!). I think rushes in general are easier to moderate and address because there are few reasonable IC rationalizations. For example, there's no excuse for prematurely setting a briefing at 12:10 to save 15 minutes when the colony's already been dark for months. Those 15 minutes would be inconsequential and just hamper your own much needed preparation. Likewise in a world without fog, it makes little sense to send three squads immediately across the river at LV at 12:25 when there's still the colony and outerlying jungle to scout. These kinds of rushes generally have no RP building up to them or IC justification, and therefore by mechanically locking them out I think we lose little enjoyment from the round.

I think the much more troubling challenge is the meta factor of the equation, which can't be objectified into a 3 or 4 point bullet rule and will always require a large degree of staff interpretation. For example, even if the fog lifted at 13:00 or 13:30, the marines would still be committing a metarush by sending three squads immediately across the river because they would have no IC reason for such a dramatic maneuver. For all the marines know, the xenos might be living in the trees, underground, or a mile away to the west in the jungle thicket. It makes little sense for the marines to just 'know' to send all their forces into one exact location across a nondescript river. Now, when one squad moves across the river and finds hordes of xenos then yeah it totally makes sense to send other squads across. But to order three squads to immediately move to one location across the river before the fog even drops is blatant meta, mechanical restriction or not.
Likewise, I think there are situations that if RPed correctly would totally justify a massive and immediate attack, such as a rescued scientist telling the CO there are giant man-eating lizards in the caves to the north of the colony. And for what it's worth, I've personally commanded many rapid marine majors using clear and evident intelligence from survivors or captured marines, and I've never had any warnings or trouble from staff about my actions (knock on wood).

By boiling the 'rush' problem into the 'metarush' problem, we effectively fold two very different problems and solutions into each other: fixing rushes doesn't fix metarushes, and confusing metarushes with rushes will just mean fights are a staring match until the CO is given a blank check to do anything they want at the admin sanctioned time. I don't want to see more mechanical restrictions for metarushing added because they hinder RP and artificially extend the round. I mean fog is such a boring mechanic and I would hate to see similar things added to Big Red or Ice. Likewise, it seems well-defined metarush rules would serve only to be rule-lawyered around by powergamers.

On a final note, I don't think I can take the complaints about the staff cabal seriously. I've been playing CM for almost a year now and on the occasions I've been talked to or questioned about something, I responded courteously and respectfully, and they reciprocated that politeness. Now, they're human too with all the imperfection that brings but I can't imagine they have a dartboard with players' names on it and use that to say "Landed on John today, let's bait him into getting himself banned". They're volunteers with lives outside of CM and have enough on their plates to deal with, let alone vitriol from players or accusations of conspiracy.

[Casany]

On a final note, I don't think I can take the complaints about the staff cabal seriously. I've been playing CM for almost a year now and on the occasions I've been talked to or questioned about something, I responded courteously and respectfully, and they reciprocated that politeness. Now, they're human too with all the imperfection that brings but I can't imagine they have a dartboard with players' names on it and use that to say "Landed on John today, let's bait him into getting himself banned". They're volunteers with lives outside of CM and have enough on their plates to deal with, let alone vitriol from players or accusations of conspiracy.

Read the staff logs posted in this report:
http://cm-ss13.com/viewtop ... 591259668d

Now, I know not all staff are bad. Indeed, a lot are pretty good. But it is obvious and always has been obvious they don't treat all players equally and hold major bias against some.

[Tharinoma]

Read the staff logs posted in this report:
http://cm-ss13.com/viewtop ... 591259668d

Now, I know not all staff are bad. Indeed, a lot are pretty good. But it is obvious and always has been obvious they don't treat all players equally and hold major bias against some.

Yes, staff are human beings. I shit on shitty players a ton in private channels. Just like players can shit a ton on staff they don't like in private channels. But no, I haven't witnessed or heard of any staff member treating a player differently because of their opinion about them since Rahzel became host.

[Symbiosis]

Yes, staff are human beings. I shit on shitty players a ton in private channels. Just like players can shit a ton on staff they don't like in private channels. But no, I haven't witnessed or heard of any staff member treating a player differently because of their opinion about them since Rahzel became host.

[Dolth]

Yes, staff are human beings. I shit on shitty players a ton in private channels. Just like players can shit a ton on staff they don't like in private channels. But no, I haven't witnessed or heard of any staff member treating a player differently because of their opinion about them since Rahzel became host.

Since Rahzel became host. At least we agree on something.

[Mvp777]

Read the staff logs posted in this report:
http://cm-ss13.com/viewtop ... 591259668d

Now, I know not all staff are bad. Indeed, a lot are pretty good. But it is obvious and always has been obvious they don't treat all players equally and hold major bias against some.

As Thar said, we have opinions about players which we sometimes discuss on private channels, just like those logs which were supposed to be PRIVATE. We aren't all automatons who mindlessly enforce the rules, we have opinions, beliefs and we talk about them with fellow staff because its one of the few people we CAN talk to freely. There are players i do and do not like, but i don't allow to get in the way of moderating, we interpret the rules and act accordingly to circumstances and history.

[Casany]

As Thar said, we have opinions about players which we sometimes discuss on private channels, just like those logs which were supposed to be PRIVATE. We aren't all automatons who mindlessly enforce the rules, we have opinions, beliefs and we talk about them with fellow staff because its one of the few people we CAN talk to freely. There are players i do and do not like, but i don't allow to get in the way of moderating, we interpret the rules and act accordingly to circumstances and history.

You say that, but then a player like Symb gets a 7 day ban for a first offense.

Sometimes it’s hard to believe people

[Karmac]

I'm with casany, I've seen this bias in action before and I know a lot of staff members are very judgemental/quick to let their emotions get the best of them.

[Tharinoma]

That is where staff reports and appeals come in. Every human organisation faces the same problem and there isn't much more we can do about it.
Hell, logs and judgements are all made public when things are taken to the forums.

[BillyBoBBizWorth]

Now, why is fortifying hydro not considered meta, but going to the crashed ship is?

[Dolth]

Staff reports rarely lead anywhere. Sadly, also :

[NethIafins]

Answer was given here on this question.

The hydro is not as close to alien hive as crashed ship is. Also unfortunately on prison aliens have only one viable starting position (since queen cant move outside civ res) but hopefully it will be fixed soon ish

[juliansl]

Soccer can typically go on for a couple of hours IF THE TEAMS ARE EVENLY MATCHED. If you pair up the national soccer team against middle schoolers of course its gonna fucking end in ten minutes flat.

A soccer match lasts for 90 minutes no matter how well they're matched.

[Casany]

That is where staff reports and appeals come in. Every human organisation faces the same problem and there isn't much more we can do about it.
Hell, logs and judgements are all made public when things are taken to the forums.

In my two years of being here on the forums I’ve only seen two examples of a staff report or payer report on a staff member doin anything major. One was a report against TR-Blackdragon for abusing his position to heal his elder predator after they died many times. This was a player report mind you. The staff report was against Feweh and actually happened this year! But he wasn’t only removed for that, of course.

Most staff reports either end with 1. Nothing will be done the staff member was in the right (which most of the time they are, emphasis on most) or
2. The staff member has been talked to and this won’t happen again.

Or the third option, where the report is left inactive for weeks to months until people just give up and it’s closed.

Look at the Awan report he made himself. It’s been open for a month, maybe a bit longer, but literally everyone has spoken out against him and logs have been pulled. He shoulda been punished for it a while ago but he hasn’t! And I garuntee it’s gonna be closed with nothing done.

That’s just how it works. Staff don’t get punished as bad as players, and I’d know from when I was a mentor. It takes a really bad fuckup for someone to be removed, and unless you’re just an idiot you can just totally lie and the staff will believe you over everyone else because you have a special tag.

[Symbiosis]

In my two years of being here on the forums I’ve only seen two examples of a staff report or payer report on a staff member doin anything major. One was a report against TR-Blackdragon for abusing his position to heal his elder predator after they died many times. This was a player report mind you. The staff report was against Feweh and actually happened this year! But he wasn’t only removed for that, of course.

Most staff reports either end with 1. Nothing will be done the staff member was in the right (which most of the time they are, emphasis on most) or
2. The staff member has been talked to and this won’t happen again.

Or the third option, where the report is left inactive for weeks to months until people just give up and it’s closed.

Look at the Awan report he made himself. It’s been open for a month, maybe a bit longer, but literally everyone has spoken out against him and logs have been pulled. He shoulda been punished for it a while ago but he hasn’t! And I garuntee it’s gonna be closed with nothing done.

That’s just how it works. Staff don’t get punished as bad as players, and I’d know from when I was a mentor. It takes a really bad fuckup for someone to be removed, and unless you’re just an idiot you can just totally lie and the staff will believe you over everyone else because you have a special tag.

I’m still waiting on a formal apology from Cry/BladeBR for the Death Squad and Unlawful Provost arrest.

I think the Death Squad verges on the bad abuse level whereas BladeBR was more a mistake, but it’s just been sitting for weeks now. It is disheartening to not seen even the most minor of actions taken where there was a clear failure at the Mod+ level.

[Casany]

I’m still waiting on a formal apology from Cry/BladeBR for the Death Squad and Unlawful Provost arrest.

I think the Death Squad verges on the bad abuse level whereas BladeBR was more a mistake, but it’s just been sitting for weeks now. It is disheartening to not seen even the most minor of actions taken where there was a clear failure at the Mod+ level.

Exactly.

The issue is that there are no checks and balances. Never have been. You just have to hope that the staff don’t just dismiss the issue. Because honestly they could and we couldn’t do anything about it but complain, and anyone who complains is just a salty toxic player who doesn’t like CM.

[Dolth]

Which is why formal rule application should be in place, and clear set of rules.