Update Discussion Thread (August 2018)

[Dauntasa]

Man, this is game you need to chill out. You're making all of this seem like it's the end of the world. Chill, relax or find something else that you like doing.

People are getting too angry about it, but the delay really is a bad, bad update. It's very drastic and if it was supposed to be something that made sense in conjunction with big xeno nerfs then it should have been held back until those nerfs were ready to go out at the same time.

[RobBrown4PM]

The delay is what it is, and I can see where some people might be upset about it, but I don't see the need to lash out with vitriol and hate over it.

I expect it to be a part of a much bigger update that will be released in equal portions.

[Lorem123]

It's an update that serves no purpose besides making the marines weaker. There's a reason people dislike updates being released like this, it makes no sense.

[Casany]

The delay is what it is, and I can see where some people might be upset about it, but I don't see the need to lash out with vitriol and hate over it.

I expect it to be a part of a much bigger update that will be released in equal portions.

You can’t expect the playerbase to know if anything in the future is coming.

I’ve been here for a while and I’ve seen many updates and nerfs where the players get upset, but before they’d expect another update to balance it. But slowly, the devs stopped putting out balancing patches ahead of nerfs, people started not trusting the devs to push out patches after huge nerfs.

What I’m saying is the REASON there are so many people who hate he update is because it makes the game UNFUN and they have no clue whether or not it’s ever gonna be fixed, or balanced. And sadly it probably won’t! Because that’s how the devs do it around here.

Imagine, if you will. You have a favorite game, a game you quite enjoy. The devs push a patch that completely destroys the way you played, and it makes the game NOT FUN for you. Would you just leave this game you’ve enjoyed for so long because of one patch? No, you’d try to get it fixed or changed. That’s the same thing here. People stopped having fun, and now they want it changed because they had fun here before and they know they will again in the future if something was changed to fix this.

I’m afraid he devs will just keep adding these updates that make the game not fun for the marine side. Why not just have a server where everyone’s gotta play xeno and all the marines are just simple animals that have ranged attacks? That seems like where this is headed. But not even xeno is fun, because it lacks any sort of skill to be good at. People love games where you can just crush an enemy, don’t get me wrong. But this isn’t one of those games. Xenos don’t require any skill but just as well they aren’t powerful enough to curb stomp by themselves, so they require teamwork. And because of again the skill vacuum you don’t see much teamwork.

Went off on a tangent but that’s the basis of why I’m upset over this at least

[Nickvr628]

You cannot release half a balance pass that fucks the balance for one side, and then claim the rest of it will come in an indeterminate point in the future. Was it really so important to push it NAOW than to wait another week to roll out all the changes at once?

We don't know if it will be a day, a week, or a month until the xenos get changed to compensate for these, so forgive us for being angry that marines have been made SIGNIFICANTLY LESS combat effective with no other explanation than "it will be balanced later by other updates".

[spookydonut]

I'd rather push minor balance changes regularly and see how they shape the game than push monolithic changes that are impossible to balance perfectly first time.

[Dauntasa]

I'd rather push minor balance changes regularly and see how they shape the game than push monolithic changes that are impossible to balance perfectly first time.

You're underestimating the impact of this change. This is not a minor change, it is a very major change. A huge change, actually, which not only nerfs the marines but actually drastically reduces the quality of their gameplay.

[Dauntasa]

There's also an issue with overdoing changes designed to fix specific problems. For example, the latest tank changes. People were unhappy with the fact that ramming the queen essentially instantly doomed her to die, and that was a fair complaint. Multiple things were suggested to rectify this: reducing the stun time so that the tank would have to stay parked on top of her and not move, making it so that xenos were knocked back instead of getting dragged under the tank when they got stunned, and making the queen incapable of being run over. Any of these changes, on its own, would have solved the problem in a perfectly acceptable way, but instead all 3 of them were implemented at the same time. This was overdoing it(and crushers really didn't need to have literally their only counter removed in the meantime, but that's another discussion).

However, these changes were at least introduced to solve a legitimate problem and none of them are as egregious as the delay. You really are very much underestimating the impact of adding a delay of up to Eight Seconds to gun wielding if you really think this is a "minor balance change". Really. It's Major, it's not fun to deal with, and it really doesn't seem to be fixing any actual problem. If it is meant to counterbalance an upcoming xeno nerf, it shouldn't have been implemented until that nerf was ready to go.

[Kesserline]

Just stating that it took you around 6 months to remove the Queen charge. It enhanced the gameplay quality for marines on a very large scale.
Just by removing ONE thing.

How can you pretend than adding ONE thing (here, a delay) wouldn't affect anything on a large scale ?

____________

A fight is won when a side makes a mistake that is used by its enemy. A xeno can make more mistakes and has more chance to escape, due to having to fight in 20v80. Especially healing and no permanent injuries.
A marine makes a single mistake used by a xeno (placement, not dodging, not covered by marines, FFed by marines, forgetting to reload, forgeting wield, and so on), and he gets removed permanently from the round.

If you keep making "small" patches that unbalance the state of your gameplay, you will create salt EVERYTIME, because one side or the other will get fucked.
That's why having a big macro, and maybe some insight from a bunch of testers is always a good thing in EVERY single videogame.

If you rely only on your dev staff, to test your patches, you will screw your playerbase over, and over, at each "small" patch you make. You have your vision of your game. But, as a developper, you create, maintain and develop a videogame used by users. You don't make it for yourself only. So, unless you share your vision, and let the users share their visions to you, you will create salt, and unenjoyment.

[Dauntasa]

If you rely only on your dev staff, to test your patches, you will screw your playerbase over, and over, at each "small" patch you make. You have your vision of your game. But, as a developper, you create, maintain and develop a videogame used by users. You don't make it for yourself only. So, unless you share your vision, and let the users share their visions to you, you will create salt, and unenjoyment.

In the townhall, the devs said that the reason they leave things opaque is because they like to surprise players with things like the tank, new maps, etc. I totally understand that and I have no problem with it. But, nobody's gonna be left awestruck by balance changes, so that doesn't really apply. As a compromise, why not share proposed Balance changes with the community beforehand to get feedback, while leaving Content a secret to still get those reactions? I think that'd be the best way to do it.

[Steelpoint]

The developers have indicated the major upcoming changes to the game on the discord.

If all these minor balance tweaks are taken into consideration alongside the (eventual)

- Research overhaul
- Xenomorph rebalance
- Brand new map with riveting new features!
- New vehicle
- More real time strategy features for Command (and Xeno Command)

Upcoming/tentative:
- Loadout, Requisitions, Supply overhaul
- More specialist overhauls
- Re-implementation of Whiskey Outpost
- Major rework of round flow/normal gamemode
- Lots and lots of rebalance, as usual

Then they start to make more sense.

While I am absolutely making this up, but if these weapon nerf/alterations were taken into balance alongside a Xenomorph rework that made Xenos easier to kill or at least far less durable (dismemberment for example), or if the standard Marines loadout was overhauled to be more generous in average magazine capacity, then I think most people would find the changes acceptable. As an example.

I personally am more than happy to wait out these minor changes and see how they fit in the long term.

Of course there is the double edged sword where the major changes don't flow well with the minor "negative" changes. But that's the nature of the beast.

[Drover]

My only issue with the new update is with the wield delay. Realistically, if you have your rifle (or whatever else) lackadaisically in one of your hands (which you wouldn't if you're going through an area with potential to get into a fight) and you get shot at, you'd have your second hand on your weapon and turning toward to the sound by the time they enemy gets a second round off. Because of the Marine training/perceived battle experience, I feel there shouldn't be a reason or a theory to validify a wield delay.

For the equipping delay, I can see the reason for it, although lore wise, it should be more thought out. What should be explained is how the weapon is held into the suit spot? A two point sling to have it slung over the shoulder? Clipped somewhere on the thigh, chest, or back plate? Both of those would take a second (if was actually properly clipped) to remove. If there was a one or three point sling there wouldn't be a delay, but those would make the magnetic harness redundant because you wouldn't drop the weapon unless the sling was cut. I feel to solve this problem would require an in-depth look at how y'all (the devs) want the suit storage to work, and make it known. Example, it would take a second to clip your weapon onto your armor. If you want to keep it balanced (or are tired of the complaining), you can get a strand or two of wire and maybe some engineering skill, and create a one time quick-release and install it to the armor. After installed, removing your weapon is instantaneous for the next time. After that, it's either install another one, or back to the equip delay.

While I am here and it's slightly related, another thing I dislike is that the TC has no engineering skill. A tanker would have intimate knowledge of his vehicle. They should be able to tell what kinds of damage they've received, more so then any field engineer. They should also be able utilize the powerloader to install their modules (a pilot can, after all). They wouldn't be able to do major repairs, say if damage is over 50 percent, they need to get a MT for it. That step would require a more in depth damage system for the tank with health for the modules, and therefor another in-depth look at how armor protects the modules. I suppose that's a talk for another day.

[spookydonut]

Queen and crusher only stop the tank if facing it, hit from the side they get knocked back, hit from behind they get knocked back AND damaged.

Tank repair is to give MTs more to do and reason to be deployed in limited numbers.

Wield delay is still probably going to need a few more tweaks to fix some of the highlighted issues but overall its making the choice between having no weapon/one handed wielded/two hand wielded a meaningful one.

[Dauntasa]

Queen and crusher only stop the tank if facing it, hit from the side they get knocked back, hit from behind they get knocked back AND damaged.

That's fair and overall the tank ramming changes are fine, although I think small xenos should still just get run over from standing. Also, I'm still going to say that the crusher didn't need any buffs.

Wield delay is still probably going to need a few more tweaks to fix some of the highlighted issues but overall its making the choice between having no weapon/one handed wielded/two hand wielded a meaningful one.

Unfortunately, as long as the xeno attack pattern stays like it is, walking around with your weapon out is just a recipe for ending up disarmed, and the fact that this change has essentially extended every single stun in the game by up to eight seconds, depending on what gun you use, makes it a very bad idea. Unless there's some way of letting marines keep a hold on their weapons when they get knocked down so they don't have to deal with an additional delay AFTER the stun I don't think this is ever gonna be a good idea.

EDIT: Oh, and for the tank repair I think it'd be nice if TCs could make minor, improvised repairs just to help it limp back to the FOB, with full repairs being MT only.

[Geikkamir]

Man, this is game you need to chill out. You're making all of this seem like it's the end of the world. Chill, relax or find something else that you like doing.

Legitimately what's even the point in having a thread like this if these kinds of posts are the fullest extent that 90% of the staff are willing to engage?

[Slduggy]

Remember this change? Yeah there was no alternative to false walls and thus no reason to remove them, therefore they were restored. Yes the removal of false walls eventually a good thing but it was only implemented when there was an alternative in place.

Why can't you just do this with the retard wield delay? Sure you reverted the absurd change to M41A Magazines but the wield delay is still awful.

[Grubstank]

I'm very glad to see some of the community's concerns finally being addressed in the recent update.

[Davidchan]

Queen and crusher only stop the tank if facing it, hit from the side they get knocked back, hit from behind they get knocked back AND damaged.

Tank repair is to give MTs more to do and reason to be deployed in limited numbers.

Wield delay is still probably going to need a few more tweaks to fix some of the highlighted issues but overall its making the choice between having no weapon/one handed wielded/two hand wielded a meaningful one.

Unless you're going to implement a clunky turning system for crushers and queens I don't see how that matters. Crushers moonwalk all the time to keep their crest facing a hostile target to take minimal damage, even with OD tank isn't fast enough to catch a queen by surprise. Why Crushers needed a buff in this regard is beyond me when the tank is the closest thing Crushers have to a counter.

CTs should be able to do repairs to their tank before it completely breaks. Just like medics can do surface repair but need a doctor to do surgery, CTs or Combat Engineers should be able to weld and maintain their tank in the field and only have to call in MTs when a module actually breaks.

Wield delay needs to go away. There is already click and fire delays on just about everything, adding more of them is bad design. People are telling you these things because they WANT to play the server but they want to have fun too, sitting around waiting because the game refuses to let you act and artificial skill ceilings are not fun. If you think they are add, add one second cooldown to Xeno movement every time they use an ability. I dare you.

[Nickvr628]

Honestly a windup of a second or so for pounces and spits would be an interesting change. It would encourage lying in wait for an ambush instead of charging at you and insta-stunning you from half the screen away.

[WinterClould]

Yo seeing as spookys doing an ace job of listening to feedback and such I feel like now's the time for me to come out and say something again.

I want my bedhead 3 back. IT WAS MURDERED WHEN IT DIDN'T NEED TO BE. They're are longer hair styles that look way less practical then my bedhead 3 did and I feel like it's outrageous that it was cut down in its prime. It doesn't cover the eyes and doesn't go past the neck. No reason for my sweet baby boy Chen to have to be living with some other trash hair style when the one I had was to perfect.

[Chaznoodles]

The changes regarding devouring are absolute wank. They completely remove any player agency marines have as soon as you get devoured. Xenos just walk straight to the nearest hugger and plonk you on top of it. The minute timer does absolutely zip, because even if they do take that long to get where they want to be, they just onehit spit or tackle you down and the process resumes.

[Lorem123]

The changes regarding devouring are absolute wank. They completely remove any player agency marines have as soon as you get devoured. Xenos just walk straight to the nearest hugger and plonk you on top of it. The minute timer does absolutely zip, because even if they do take that long to get where they want to be, they just onehit spit or tackle you down and the process resumes.

Hasn't every single change been about reducing player agency for marines and making xenos even easier to play?

[Park]

As a marine main I've realized that the devs just need time to see how these changes affect gameplay. The most recent example was tank/defender/warrior update. I was super salty as a marine during that update but I came to understand that although the wait time was long and the round agonizing to play the nerfs to defenders and warriors did come and buffs to the tank aswell. I feel like like most updates changes will come but we have to wait for devs to get info.

[Lorem123]

As a marine main I've realized that the devs just need time to see how these changes affect gameplay. The most recent example was tank/defender/warrior update. I was super salty as a marine during that update but I came to understand that although the wait time was long and the round agonizing to play the nerfs to defenders and warriors did come and buffs to the tank aswell. I feel like like most updates changes will come but we have to wait for devs to get info.

Yeah except the tank is getting more nerfs while warriors and defenders are still too strong. Mostly warriors.

[Park]

But the point is that tank post update was literal trash tier and more a liability than an asset. Defender and Warriors were oppressive: allowing xeno stomp-fests each and every round. I can easily say that after changes I actually want the tank to be supporting my squad and although defenders and warriors are still cancerous they are not oppressive to the meta like they were post update. Changes will be made.