Update Discussion Thread (September 2018)

[Blade2000Br]

I don't see a problem with large xeno pops, it only means more benos are plating.

[Kesserline]

It just means longer rounds, or roflstomps.

If you over buff one side you need at one point tone down (already did) and/or buffing the other side.

Round will either last 1h30, either 3+hours. Due to solely to larva bursting'

[Madventurer]

Prolly to discourage complete decapitation of the marine command structure super easy like they have had a habit of doing in the past. Xenos aren't megafucked, you just need to get good and learn there are limits as to what you can and should do. Assaulting the cic and brig all at once, prolly on the list of things to avoid as a solo beno.

The problem is that xenos onboard already have a highly limited role, so their xeno slot is essentially wasted. The lack of healing screws you over in any engagements you don't handle without getting hit, the lack of evolve/upgrade also keeps xeno power on Almayer very very low.... And now the risky play option has been removed.

[carlarc]

since we're already on the way why not just keep upping the ante?

readd QF EB, 8 spec slots, bring tank back, but heavily buff the xenos' bursting and reduce the mature timer

it'd be a lot more high octane thats for sure

[Blade2000Br]

since we're already on the way why not just keep upping the ante?

readd QF EB, 8 spec slots, bring tank back, but heavily buff the xenos' bursting and reduce the mature timer

it'd be a lot more high octane thats for sure

That would break balance completely.

[Kesserline]

Balance got broken with huge numbers at med/high-pop.

Either by roflstomp, either by huge round timer.

[Blade2000Br]

QF EB + Tank + 8 specs will literally break the balance. Things should move slow paced, not just go full on crazy mode. Thats not fun at all.

[Kesserline]

8 specs would reduce the RNG frustration.
QF EB would be toned down by turning it into QF VG EB.
Forcing the use of a third attachment and preventing the use of AG instead. Forcing wielding delay for QF users.

Tank? Tank is a marine nerf. Tank costs shitload of points, with focused powers on 2 RNG filled roles.
Also, marines won more without tank because with the HUGE Supplies allowed : AP and claymores rained and SD were awesomely supplied.

We can keep those numbers, but marines would need the means to get them down. Othewise, why bothering making a FOB and not Aiting at R&R for Almayer boarding.?

[Blade2000Br]

8 specs is not that balanced at all. The attachments were removed for a reason (delta abusing the shit out of it) and Tank might cost a shitload, but when you can gib any alien regardless of level and tier... Thats good enough.

RNG frustration will happen regardless. Thats part of the game. There will always be something happening that you won't like, but its needed for balance IE. Scout unable to use shotguns.

Theres buffs, then theres broken changes. Because what you are suggesting is literally warrior grab levels of broken. It just will be broken, regardless how you view it.

[Kesserline]

Scout unable to do shotguns only after Spheres vid.
QF EB only because 9 to 13 marines used them (number of QF inside vendors)

Nerfing because of minority of users. Yet, allowing RNG on 4 key roles. I literally saw a bald spec PBing himself with his M88 when trying to buckle himself in the DS.

8 spec would be done gradually, such as support roles. From 1 to 2, depending on medpop high pop.

QF can be toned down by adding or forcing drawbacks. Forcing to the wield delay, or forcing scatter to be compensated with another attachment.

Tank is a turn tider. It's also pain in the ass to manage.
Let me explain how I see the tank.

I give you a bullet. You shoot at your own foot. That's the tank. And I give you a second bullet to shoot at the enemy.

Now, what if I give you just a bullet to shoot at the enemy, without hurting your foot in the first place? Those are the actual rounds, without the tank, these days.

[Jeser]

The problem is that xenos onboard already have a highly limited role, so their xeno slot is essentially wasted. The lack of healing screws you over in any engagements you don't handle without getting hit, the lack of evolve/upgrade also keeps xeno power on Almayer very very low.... And now the risky play option has been removed.

The thing is, xeno on board Almayer before Hive boarding Almayer supposed to be weak and easily killable, because it's not fun to deal with some lurker as MT/Doc/Req staff. That's why intended boarding DS to get on Almayer often gets intervened by admins.

Tank? Tank is a marine nerf. Tank costs shitload of points, with focused powers on 2 RNG filled roles.
Also, marines won more without tank because with the HUGE Supplies allowed : AP and claymores rained and SD were awesomely supplied.

Psss, tank has vendor, so unless TCs are idiots and manage to break down tank within an hour, you only need to spend 30-60 points for ammo and that's all.

[Kesserline]

Yo whot? Tank has vendor?

[MattAtlas]

Yo whot? Tank has vendor?

Yeah it has a vendor where they can choose one of each hardpoint at roundstart. Replacements and ammo gotta be bought from req though.

[Survivor]

Vendor or not, Tank still is a waste for FOB friendly cades and stuff. I wish it would stay gone, but that's just me.

[Kesserline]

Well, I feel bad now. Yeah, tank is still a FOB issue, but not that much of a RO headache.
Kinda breaks my arguments.

Yeah, all of those points can't be added at the same time. Totally not.

Muh bad.

Jason, hugs?

[Blade2000Br]

I accept the hugs because I like hugs.

But yeah, we gotta look over many points before deciding if it will be a fair thing to do or not.

[CABAL]

Tank is just boring. It is taking too much space so it has to be able to shoot from off screen, yet everyone knows that's not fun, so the tank can't be effective. There is no point in explaining why it is boring now.

Where are combat loaders, jeeps, humvees, or/and APC's?

[Grubstank]

I want the tank to stay gone, personally. I can't see it being a benefit to the enjoyment of either the marines or the xenos.
It reduces the competitive nature of the marines in the same manner that charge/fast queen did for the xenos; and the tank is no fun for the xenos, because nobody enjoys being blown up by something they can't see.

If we are going to reintroduce vehicles, I would much prefer an emphasis on smaller alternatives -- especially on vehicles which are non-combat focused

[WinterClould]

I want the tank to be changed in some ways but Im not sure on the ways exactly. Ya know? Just like, make some things different ya dig? Idk. To many people saying how much they hate it and don't want it to come back but also enough people like myself who don't want it gone forever. So we clearly can't just readd it plain as is, but like, idk what we'd change to keep it viable, not bullshit, not a drain on marine eco, but still killable. Like get what I'm saying? I'm basically saying how do we rebalance it to make it not the hot mess of opinions we got right now?


Some of you cats who hate the tank tell us what you'd like to make it acceptable. Any of you who actually really dig the tank give us some feedback on what you think might be to strong or weak even about it. We'll get some good lists of buffs and nerfs it needs. Think about any ways the tank influences gameplay, from economy wise, how marines huddle around it in a push, to speed, scoped lgbt cannon killing power, all that nonsense from that statistical to the meta strategy that are focused around it.

[Hihasf]

As a xeno main, I'd prefer if the tank range and stun time was decreased by a bit.

it just ruins it for me when I either get gibbed from a mile away or get stunned for 10 seconds.

[CABAL]

I don't hate the tank, but:

- Tank is too large.
- Tank is too slow.
- Tank is useable by only two players per round.
- Tank needs babysitting.
- Tank prelongs the rounds. Xenos are too scared to push, or even to run around becouse they could die as a marine to the rav, or crusher with bad/good RNG. Marines want to have a tank up front to feel safe and the tank is slow, clunky etc.
- Tank wastes points on plasteel just to build a way for it.
- Tank wastes points on C4 just to make it go most of the places on Big Red, all of the places on Prison and few on ICE and LV.
- Tank makes benomains complain so they are receiving buffs. Just adding a tank granted xenos new castes that any xeno could try and they were OP. Imagine what might come next.
- Tank just does not "fit" into "style" of CM (Not saying lore since it was throwed out of the airlock at the beginning by 75-25 winrate/less xenos more marines).

As PFC marine I want more things to just "play". PFC can't drive, or atleast be passenger of the tank, he can't have any interaction with it. New armors, new toys, new guns... Right now I don't need more buffs, nerffs, or "additions". Just more variety. Tank is not "variable" for PFC.

[Grubstank]

As PFC marine I want more things to just "play". PFC can't drive, or atleast be passenger of the tank, he can't have any interaction with it. New armors, new toys, new guns... Right now I don't need more buffs, nerffs, or "additions". Just more variety. Tank is not "variable" for PFC.

I totally agree with this. For the tank to be an enjoyable addition it really ought to be something that the majority of marine players can interact with. A smaller APC with firing ports and a M56 turret anybody could man would be one way to solve this, but it does move away from having an actual tank on the field. In fact, I'm of the opinion that having an APC would be better than a tank in almost every regard -- power balance, enjoyment, skill, accessibility, etc.

If you're going to balance vehicles, they simply can't be powerful enough to center a strategy around. At that point, the competitiveness rapidly breaks down, and the salt starts to accumulate on both ends. In my opinion, tank crew should be reworked into a more hands-on version of PO that handles ground logistics/transportation. Having an M56 or even a mounted RPG would make it capable of self defense, and in contributing to offense, but it's not going to be the deciding factor of a battle by itself -- and committing the unit to offense would surrender the massive benefits to the transportation of wounded/reinforcements, etc.. That's the sort of balance that vehicles need.

[misto]

cabal is right, pfcs make up a huge mass of the playerbase and theyre aching for better loadout customization and more options

[BillyBoBBizWorth]

cabal is right, pfcs make up a huge mass of the playerbase and theyre aching for better loadout customization and more options

He is right and i agree, the thing is though is that possible solutions have been suggested around these wants by the marine players, APC/Jeep vehicle has been suggested multiple times and the light suggestions i made in the thread spooky shut down would add to customization and variation as well easily.

Speaking of, can any admins tell me if the zoom macro function is actually coming back? Phil acknowledged that it was broken quite some time ago on a bug report i did on Gitlab, but it still hasnt been resolved and is almost looking like its not coming back at this point.

Its honestly the number one CM thing i want to know right now, i thought it would of been fixed ages ago, same with the annoying stretcher bug.

[MattAtlas]

I want the tank to be changed in some ways but Im not sure on the ways exactly. Ya know? Just like, make some things different ya dig? Idk. To many people saying how much they hate it and don't want it to come back but also enough people like myself who don't want it gone forever. So we clearly can't just readd it plain as is, but like, idk what we'd change to keep it viable, not bullshit, not a drain on marine eco, but still killable. Like get what I'm saying? I'm basically saying how do we rebalance it to make it not the hot mess of opinions we got right now?


Some of you cats who hate the tank tell us what you'd like to make it acceptable. Any of you who actually really dig the tank give us some feedback on what you think might be to strong or weak even about it. We'll get some good lists of buffs and nerfs it needs. Think about any ways the tank influences gameplay, from economy wise, how marines huddle around it in a push, to speed, scoped lgbt cannon killing power, all that nonsense from that statistical to the meta strategy that are focused around it.

There were two issues with the tank: LTB offscreen gibbing and ballistic armour being way too resistant. Easy way to fix this isto make a ballistic armour tank actually destroyable in under 10 minutes and make Arty LTB damage have falloff when offscreen. Though onscreen benos should still be gibbed imo.