Smartgunner needs a buff?

[Dolth]

Give the most recent link.
People will defib the gitlab post and hopefully it will get a bump.

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

Give the most recent link.
People will defib the gitlab post and hopefully it will get a bump.

Here: https://gitlab.com/cmdevs/ColonialMarin ... h=smartgun

Knock yourself out.

[Dolth]

Alrighty, upvoted as I agree plus bumped and provided this thread link. Asked devs for a feedback.

[MattAtlas]

Fuck your barricade IFF. Big -1 on that.
And dunno about AP. If the falloff gets away then your damages will be not so bad.

Rest is alright.
Anyone gitlabs that?

you should be able to shoot through barricades from behind them, but not from the front is the thing

currently if you stand 2-3 tiles behind a cade most of your shit will get absorbed

smartgun falloff rn is about 1 per tile I think, lowering it to 0.5 wouldn't be so bad but the AP increase may be enough to compensate

[Dolth]

Meh. Alright nevermind. But then M56D and sentries should bypass cades aswell.

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

Meh. Alright nevermind. But then M56D and sentries should bypass cades aswell.

Sentries already bypass cades. ever since August 2nd. M56D bypassing cades will mean that Ice Tcomms nerd fort will never be able to be sieged.

[Dolth]

Fair enough.

[RobBrown4PM]

They most certainly do not need a buff. As long as sensible tactics are observed, SG's can easily make a battle one sided.

[Boersgard]

Covering fire and "suppressive fire" generally don't work, simple as that. If the xeno doesn't get finished off, nothing stops it from just heal up to full without any permanent injuries or debuffs.

Suppressive fire isn't suppressive if it doesn't kill. You couldn't suppress marines with a bunch of nerf darts - the weapon you use to suppress does it because it's actually threatening. The SG unfortunately is not even slightly threatening. What xeno goes "oh no they have a smartgunner". Grenadiers, rockets, shotguns - those are actually deadly to xenos and suppress them - they suppress just by existing, which is what effective killing weapons do. Smartguns? Heck no.

Right now, rather than being a critical asset to a squad, the smartgunner is worse than having another marine with an M41.

[Boersgard]

Smartgunners: The Rethinkening

An overlooked part of balance discussions is the initial premise from which you design around. In this case, what exactly is it that smartgunners are intended to do for their squad?

I see the smartgun as a lightweight LMG designed to be carried and fired accurately while on the move. Machine Guns have historically been one of the more accurate and deadlier weapons in modern combat, often used to set up killzones or provide long range covering/suppressive fire for troop movement. The LMG is simply an evolutionary refinement from the regular machinegun (which requires time to set up and prepare) which allows a squad to deploy a more powerful weapon more quickly so they can maneuver faster. LMG's fire heavier rounds than most small arms, but not as heavy as true mounted guns. The smartgun LMG is a further refinement of the LMG concept that now allows the operator to fire his LMG accurately, with tracking technology, while moving - no longer requiring set up in a specific place, but actually moving as the squad moves and still laying down accurate fire.

From a design standpoint the smartgun LMG in colonial marines functions kind of like this, but hugely lacks in punching power, and I think that stems primarily from it having IFF. I guess the idea is IFF = use it in groups = needs to be balanced around 3-5 marines firing all at once, which ends up making the SG almost worthless by itself or in small groups of 2-3 people.

So I present a new approach to the smartgunner:

Remove his IFF
Increase damage and accuracy substantially
Increase his ammo to something like 100/300 or 100/400

In place of the IFF, re-implement the existing targeting framework that fires on a locked target when it moves. Have it so that when the smartgun has locked a target this way, it has IFF and will no longer hit friendlies.

[Dolth]

Smartgunners: The Rethinkening

An overlooked part of balance discussions is the initial premise from which you design around. In this case, what exactly is it that smartgunners are intended to do for their squad?

I see the smartgun as a lightweight LMG designed to be carried and fired accurately while on the move. Machine Guns have historically been one of the more accurate and deadlier weapons in modern combat, often used to set up killzones or provide long range covering/suppressive fire for troop movement. The LMG is simply an evolutionary refinement from the regular machinegun (which requires time to set up and prepare) which allows a squad to deploy a more powerful weapon more quickly so they can maneuver faster. LMG's fire heavier rounds than most small arms, but not as heavy as true mounted guns. The smartgun LMG is a further refinement of the LMG concept that now allows the operator to fire his LMG accurately, with tracking technology, while moving - no longer requiring set up in a specific place, but actually moving as the squad moves and still laying down accurate fire.

From a design standpoint the smartgun LMG in colonial marines functions kind of like this, but hugely lacks in punching power, and I think that stems primarily from it having IFF. I guess the idea is IFF = use it in groups = needs to be balanced around 3-5 marines firing all at once, which ends up making the SG almost worthless by itself or in small groups of 2-3 people.

So I present a new approach to the smartgunner:

Remove his IFF
Increase damage and accuracy substantially
Increase his ammo to something like 100/300 or 100/400

In place of the IFF, re-implement the existing targeting framework that fires on a locked target when it moves. Have it so that when the smartgun has locked a target this way, it has IFF and will no longer hit friendlies.

The "targeting framework" you're talking about still exists but it indeed doesn't lock.
Well, I suggest you post your request on Gitlab since that's where real suggestions are taken in account : https://gitlab.com/cmdevs/ColonialMarines/issues

Cheers.

[Agecom]

You are Right with the goddam Ammo and with the delay too i LOST against an DRONE while i had a heck lot of Ground between me and the drone and guess what 5 hits Ammo empty im DEAD

[Dolth]

Yeah even if it's supposed to be support any weapons should be able to kill a drone if you have ground.

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

When a rando PFC can have more damage and more ammo than you, an SG that the entire marine force can only have 4 of, with his M41 (way more variety in attachments than your M56 by the way) with 1 mag loaded, 5 in the belt, 2 in the armor (not counting AP or extended); there's something wrong.

We're not counting webbing, satchel/backpack or pouches yet, and the loadout I said above carries 320 ammo to your 300 (50 loaded, 250 in the pack).

If we're counting AP and BC/RDS/VGrip on that nice M41, by the time the PFC runs out of his first AP mags, he will have put 6 young Ravs into crit and still keep 4 shots to crit an Elder Runner (assuming all the shots hit ofc).

[CABAL]

All your problems can be solved by using Cargo Carts. SG's should get one in their prep always. When riding those carts you can't be pounced and spit doesn't reach you. Also Cart always drives the same speed, despite wielding weapons, so you are slower than on foot while not wielding, but you are faster than you would wield.

You have to be carefull with bugs, though. If the cart gets destroyed while you are riding it, you are getting long stun while standing in one spot.

As SG I only had fun while riding Cargo Carts. Runners and Sentinels just don't know what to do when they see SG-Cart combo. Every T2, T3 and Queen immediately targets you. You can ride alongside Avalanche CO and you will be targetted instead of him.

[Dolth]

Doesn't make you more useful than a M41A either. This trick helps for pretty much anything. You won't be much useful with a 56B on those are it means you wanna chase. With low accuracy. High falloff. Still RIP.

[Arbs]

The smartgun has an IFF and can output a LOT of DPS when sustained, in the end it's a suppressing weapon rather than a direct kill weapon. So, it's not necessarily the stats that make the smartgun unpleasant, but it's more about how impractical it is.

What I would go for first is reducing the "double delay time" we have for every weapon now.

Ever since some update we have a separate delay for being able to wield and another delay for being able to fire, both have more or less the same duration. While that's tolerable for shotguns and rifles, it lowers the response time a LOT for smartgunners.

Another thing is that 50 round belts are too short for sustained fire and that long reloading action that requires you to stand still on top of all makes life pain. This is what's worst about it.

What I would suggest is making the smartgun powerpacks act like magazines to get rid of the reload action or increase the belt size to 100 or 150.

[CABAL]

It's psychological "effect buff". Small brain xenomains are stunned irl when they encounter new situation.
I bet that staff member will respond to this thread that SG is supposed to give "cover fire", nothing accurate, just to scare xenos off. Cart gives just that.

[Dolth]

You must be kidding mate. If you're shooting at a xeno 5 tiles away, you won't hit him and if you do damage-s gonna be shit from fall off.

I won't deny it though, at close range it can be pretty good. AKA the BFA and burst macro to turn into a shotgun if something came close lol.

But as it has IFF and is supposed to be an extra gun by standing behind someone, you're far from your target all the time and will either miss, either hit for low damages.

And you can't chase because of the wielded speed plus 50 ammo.

[Madventurer]

Y'know, instead of having major reworks on everything that doesn't work, how about starting and trying out smaller buffs first?

I suggest minor/moderate accuracy boost and larger power pack. This would increase SG's efficiency while standing behind others and allow them to sustain fire for longer periods over the round. It would also make BC less punishing.

If that doesn't make SG satisfactory, proceed with more buffs, such as minor damage buff, minor armor piercing increase etc.

[Boersgard]

And you can't chase because of the wielded speed plus 50 ammo.

And all the marines in front of you who get in the way

[lurkermain]

I think the accuracy buff makes the most sense because it's supposed to be an auto-tracking weapon anyway.

[Boersgard]

I think the accuracy buff makes the most sense because it's supposed to be an auto-tracking weapon anyway.

It's really bad.

Example from yesterday:
Sitting in hydro top left windows, I see a runner get put into crit about 6-7 tiles away. I fire about 15 rounds single-shot out the window at the prone immobile runner, all apparently miss. Switch to walk intent, fire more, all miss. I actually had to get out of hydro, run up to the prone runner, and THEN shoot it 2 tiles away to kill it.

It's ridiculous.

[JJG]

I play a lot of SG for some reason, I have that shit on medium and still get picked every other round...

Anyways, in my opinion, the SG is useless without the BC. You put the BC on, turn on BurstFire and then you spray and fucking pray that the RNG gods smile upon you.
You won't hit much, but at least you will deal some sort of damage in the midgame. You will still be useless for most of the endgame though.

Besides the absolutely laughable damage and accuracy of the SG, its biggest problem is the ammo. You won't ever have fucking ammo for the thing!
Literally, everyone on the battlefield has more ammo than you while at the same time also having an easier time getting more should they run out. What a fucking joke!

PFC can carry like 540 rounds of M41A ammunition into the field, and that's without extended mags. His default mags only have 10 bullets less than your belt!
And reloading an M41A takes about 1.5 seconds if you are good and you can run around while doing it. All other weapons also have less wield delay and higher mobility while wielded!
An SMG with AP, RDS and laser sight is a superior weapon to a smartgun about 80% of the time. It does like twice the damage, moves at 3x times the speed wielded and has almost no delay.

Really just about the only place a SG is useful for is pushing tight corridors during beginning and midgame. At endgame, your damage is so incredibly piss poor that you should switch to your boot knife or bare fists instead.

So, the SG is the big suck. But it's still kind of fun to play, so long as it's the beginning or midgame. You might as well throw that trash away when you see the first mature T3 (you probably won't have ammo for it anymore at that point anyway)

[Dolth]

Well if you do suppressing fire you will obviously not have any ammo lol. And I really disagree with the BC. I'd rather deal 30 three time really fast because of the accuracy with no BC rather than 40 just once out of a unaccurate burst, unless you shottie.