Xeno Mutator discussion

[Build_R_]

Early on in the round, the queen bought the upgrade mutation, speeding up upgrades for every xeno. However, I noticed my upgrade timer was going at the same rate as the evolve timer. Does this mean the upgrade mutation didn't work with the early-round upgrade boost?

[Sulaboy]

As a marine I hate hardier weeds. It's like having sticky resin on every tile on the map. I bring a machete because I hate weeds, and resin. Now anyone who doesn't bring a machete doesn't bother slashing the tiles. If weeds are more than a one hit removal, then they should be harder to place down. Clearing weeds is probably the least fun thing to do as a marine. I hate it, and I want it to not exist. Weeds suck.

[NeatoNito]

Early on in the round, the queen bought the upgrade mutation, speeding up upgrades for every xeno. However, I noticed my upgrade timer was going at the same rate as the evolve timer. Does this mean the upgrade mutation didn't work with the early-round upgrade boost?

The way it works is that It takes off 10% of the needed points to upgrade/evolve.
Where it takes a T1 200 normally, It decreases what you need to 180.
At least, That is what I saw.

[xXen0zS1ay3rXx]

As it stands now the changes are so minor it doesn't seem like it is doing much. But that could be a good thing I suppose for testing purposes, its like a net .5% increase overall.

[Reuben Owen]

tackle upgrade > damage upgrade js

unique type upgrades
i know this isnt a suggestion thread or anything i just thought id share

runner
slimmer: you now move through all mobs regardless of intent (like larva)
lighter: you now avoid tripping mines

lurker
cloak+: you now cloak while resting

ravager
fire+: all slashes do additional burn damage, extra burn damage if hit by fire (slightly lower base damage)

sentinel/spitter/praetorian
acid spit+: neuro knocks back 1 square (can be taken additional times, +1 knockback each time)



queen
mobile ovi: queen in ovi can now move extremely slowly (like 1 tile every 20 seconds)
egg+: increases rate at which eggs are laid

[ThePiachu]

Addressing some more concerns:

- First two tests, we had infinite larva bug, the Queen was not able to take the larva pack more than once to my knowledge
- You can only pick pheromones up once, and Queen can also pick it up once, so it's definitely a good option, but you don't have infinitely strong pheromones.
- Boiler gas spread was already in the code, but was bugged, so it's mostly restoring the code to what it was supposed to be
- Yes, Runner pulling needs to be toned down
- Basic stat boosts might be a bit of a meh mutator, but we currently needed to put something in for the simpler castes. Until we develop enough interesting choices for every xeno, those will probably stay as an option, but maybe with tweaked numbers
- Boost damage affects anything that looks at xeno's base damage, so I'd imagine some abilities will be affected
- Upgrade mutation affects both maturing and evolving. So a Drone would be able to evolve at 180 tics, and mature at 180 tics as well
- Mutators are applied on top of normal maturity bonuses. There are many many variables being changed with each maturity level, so mutators will never replace that system entirely

And to elaborate on a few things in more details.

Potential future mutators:
- Tackle mutator is indeed considered
- Queen egg laying speed upgrade
- General action speed mutator (faster acid plopping, faster devour, generally faster anything that has a timer)
- Pounce distance upgrade
- Spit distance upgrade
- Maybe some boost to spit damage / neuro values. Maybe. In general, spit stuff needs to be looked into and refined a bit, so I'm putting mutating that ability for a bit
- Maybe adding some mutators that give a strong boost with a strong downside. Or it could be some different system entirely. Example I have in mind is Drone not being able to build anything but sticky, but being boosted in other areas to be more of a "frontline saboteur". Don't expect this anytime soon.

And other concerns:
> What I would like to ask devs is, is this new system designed to be a pure power level buff for xenos or is the goal to make xenos more fun to play with variation?

Both really. First of all, it's meant to give xenos and especially the Queen more influence on how the round is played. I'd expect you to be able to make "xeno builds" and develop a deeper "xeno meta" with the mutators. Hopefully the mutators will be able to let you tailor the pre-existing castes into your playstyle. For example, a Hive Drone vs a Frontline Drone should be somewhat different.

Secondly, yes, this system is meant to be a boost to xenos power level. It's unavoidable really. From what I've experienced so far, you can boost marines in a million small ways, but you can boost xenos only in a few big ways. This is one of those big boosts. That's not to say we want to make the update unbalanced. Quite the opposite - this is a chance to give Marines some new feature to balance the update. I expect this update to be balanced by giving PFCs an ability to spend their kit points, which in itself is a large power boost. That is a highly upvoted suggestion, but introducing it by itself would feel like a nerf to xenos.

So just because we're boosting xenos today, doesn't mean we won't boost Marines tomorrow. Everything will be balanced eventually .

[KingKire]

\
So just because we're boosting xenos today, doesn't mean we won't boost Marines tomorrow. Everything will be balanced eventually .

We lost CandadianHitler and picked up Thanos everybody, pack it up, CM finally has a new meme to latch onto. woop woop

[kastion]

3 months of marine boosts after xenos got massively nerfed and people are acting like 5-10% bonus on 3 stats is making xenos overpowered. Marines are whiny as fuck.

[ThePiachu]

3 months of marine boosts after xenos got massively nerfed and people are acting like 5-10% bonus on 3 stats is making xenos overpowered. Marines are whiny as fuck.

Yeah, the dchat salt was quite something .

[Renomaki]

3 months of marine boosts after xenos got massively nerfed and people are acting like 5-10% bonus on 3 stats is making xenos overpowered. Marines are whiny as fuck.

shockingly true...

but of course, as marines always do, they'll get used to it in time, and then will be back to metarushing xenos at Lambda as per the norm.

Although I never played it myself, I feel that if xenos are going to have the ability to personally buff themselves, maybe reworking the age system might be a good idea?

but then again, I never played it, so I'm not sure how impactful the update really is when compared to how aging works.

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

- General action speed mutator (faster acid plopping, faster devour, generally faster anything that has a timer)

I can smell the combat nesting from over here.

[lurkermain]

Let's say I am an ancient runner in a mutator round, what upgrades would I have to pick to end up with similar stats to an ancient runner in a non-mutator round?

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

Let's say I am an ancient runner in a mutator round, what upgrades would I have to pick to end up with similar stats to an ancient runner in a non-mutator round?

There isn't a difference between the 2 unless the devs want to change it. Mutators are just for adding MORE stats alongside your mature stuff.

[kastion]

There isn't a difference between the 2 unless the devs want to change it. Mutators are just for adding MORE stats alongside your mature stuff.

We will see how long that lasts.

[lurkermain]

There isn't a difference between the 2 unless the devs want to change it. Mutators are just for adding MORE stats alongside your mature stuff.

I see, for some reason my first impression was that instead of getting the usual maturing bonuses, you get to pick stuff, like skip the health upgrade for more damage.

[kastion]

What I see happening is they will buff AP rounds to counter new armor buffs. That means everyone who doesn't take armor is even weaker than they used to be. I see them nerfing base speed on runners when people complain that the speed boost is too good, because how can you make a 5% boost something like 2% and it even matters at that point? Thus when people don't take the speed boost they will be even slower. Things like this will constantly happen over the next few months until we are at a point where base xenos are weaker than ever and mutations have us where we are now. The only problem is you don't get enough mutations to boost every stat so eventually we just end up weaker overall.

[Boersgard]

As a marine I hate hardier weeds. It's like having sticky resin on every tile on the map. I bring a machete because I hate weeds, and resin. Now anyone who doesn't bring a machete doesn't bother slashing the tiles. If weeds are more than a one hit removal, then they should be harder to place down. Clearing weeds is probably the least fun thing to do as a marine. I hate it, and I want it to not exist. Weeds suck.

Weeds need to be plantable only inside structures, never outside.

[kastion]

Weeds need to be plantable only inside structures, never outside.

slow downs marines run speed or boost xeno run speed like they get on weeds and its a deal.

[x31stOverlord]

So. I feel as though the mutators are fun for xeno players, they get to augment and upgrade themselves to better suit their playstyle. I took alot of health upgrades on a defender and got to ancient and bullets were just being soaked when I toggled defence stance. It was reminiscent of when they were just released and utterly immortal. The great Wall of defenders. A few minor tweaks here and there will balance mutators quite finely

[Ketrai]

Hence why I'd rather have mutators just add or augment smt instead of pure stat ups.

[Boersgard]

More playstyles, rather than stat boosts, is always better. Lets people specialize strategies and gives them new ways to play. Keeps the meta more fresh and variable too.

However mutators so far seem like a straight up xeno boost across the board while xenos are already extremely good.

And I am not a fan of this aging system that dramatically overpowers xenos by mid-late game. I think mutations should work more like attachments do for marines, the aging system removed outright, and xeno individual power level remaining more or less static throughout the round rather than being weak at first and then snowballing to OP from age bonuses and mutations.

[lurkermain]

More playstyles, rather than stat boosts, is always better. Lets people specialize strategies and gives them new ways to play. Keeps the meta more fresh and variable too.

However mutators so far seem like a straight up xeno boost across the board while xenos are already extremely good.

And I am not a fan of this aging system that dramatically overpowers xenos by mid-late game. I think mutations should work more like attachments do for marines, the aging system removed outright, and xeno individual power level remaining more or less static throughout the round rather than being weak at first and then snowballing to OP from age bonuses and mutations.

What's overpowered? Some ancient xenos not dying to one (1) pb buckshot instantly?

[Boersgard]

What's overpowered? Some ancient xenos not dying to one (1) pb buckshot instantly?

How about weapons besides PB Buckshot being able to kill something?

[lurkermain]

How about weapons besides PB Buckshot being able to kill something?

In that case you need more than one hit. But not too many since the tank removal everyone is running around with AP ammo.

[kastion]

you can tell when people don't play xeno when they act like nothing but PB buckshot can kill anything. AP shreds everything doesn't matter what you are. Yesterday I was a mature crusher and I ran at a pyro and he blue flamed me, I instantly turned around and ran and by the time I got 5 tiles away I was at 5% hp from full. I got dropped as an elder defender in about 3 seconds to an SMG with AP. I have been an elder praetorian and been killed in 1 clip to an m4a3 custom pistol. These are all ways I have got rekt by a SINGLE marine. If you focus fire at all you can drop any xeno fast. Marines just don't work as a team because they are too busy being memester snowflakes.