Aliens crippling infected.

Generic, on-topic discussion about Colonial Marines.
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coroneljones
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Re: Aliens crippling infected.

Post by coroneljones » 24 Oct 2015, 18:50

Toroic wrote:Just to clarify again, xenos are allowed to kill or cripple infected that fight back. Xenos are allowed to damage infected if it does not lead to their death, per the rules.

A facehugged marine will not become infected if the hugger is pulled off in time, therefore they are not infected once hugged, and as such can be hugged and murdered freely, per the wording of the rules. Once they are successfully infected, then you need to wait for them to fight back to kill, but not to cripple, again per the wording of the rules.
The wording yea..

One problem is people are following the words not the spirit of the rule
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Re: Aliens crippling infected.

Post by Toroic » 24 Oct 2015, 19:45

coroneljones wrote: The wording yea..

One problem is people are following the words not the spirit of the rule
I disagree. I think if the rule was "no harming infected unless they fight back" that would be exactly what was said.

I believe the "spirit" of the rule is to prevent xenos from screwing over the team by murdering infected hosts because they can.
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Re: Aliens crippling infected.

Post by Campor » 17 Nov 2015, 06:06

In my experience, anyone using 'per the wording of the rules' is trying to hold on to an advantage.

Something to remember is that this game is intended to be fun for both sides. Being a marine, having your legs cut off and being able to do literally nothing in the long-ass time it takes to burst with no way out (easy or otherwise) is not fun. It's tedious. Sure, there's not a lot of chance you could break out even if all that happened was you were tackled, hugged and dragged on back to the nest, but there is still that chance. Still an opportunity for you to actively do something rather than saying 'Oh, well I guess I'll just sit here for 10-20 minutes and wait to die.'

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Re: Aliens crippling infected.

Post by apophis775 » 17 Nov 2015, 16:56

Let me comment on this, by explaining "Rules as Intended" and "rules as Written"

Every "Rule" ever created for everything from DND to CM, has 2 sides: the Intent, and the Written. The Written of the law, is the actual words describing what it's specifically preventing or what it's limiting. The Intent, is the reason the rule was created and what general behavior the rule is trying to enforce or avoid.


This rule for example, is written as:
Do not Kill infected hosts (once they have the icon) if they are defenseless or nested. It's counter-productive to your cause of spreading. If a marine escapes the nest and uses a weapon to resist, THEN you may kill them, but you should try to tackle and nest them. Remember: The most hosts you get, the more aliens you get.
Basically, it's trying to stop hosts from getting murdered in nests for no good reason, while still allowing aliens to use huggers as a weapon to stun-kill.


The INTENT of this rule, is to prevent aliens from killing marines unnecessarily (thus dwindling their own numbers), and give the marines the chance to possibly escape. The rule was written to try and still let carriers and the few people who use huggers as stuns, to be able to do it, but it's meant for use in large combat, not one-on-one.


So, my question to you guys is,

how could we re-word this rule, to prevent maiming/harming hosts who are hugged and outside the nest (but not in a large group in combat) to increase the change that the marines will make it to the nest and not get maimed?

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Re: Aliens crippling infected.

Post by Toroic » 17 Nov 2015, 17:20

Do not harm infected hosts if they are defenseless or nested. If you harm a hugged or infected host you must aim for the head and kill them. Intentional crippling of hugged or infected hosts is forbidden. If a marine escapes a nest and uses a weapon to resist, you may kill them but not cripple them. However, keep in mind that the more hosts you get the more aliens you get. Killing too many hosts infected is counter-productive and harms the team, so it should be a last resort.
I think this clarifies that crippling isn't ok, but also clarifies that killing an infected that escapes from a nest is also ok.

The only loophole then is that a xeno could cripple a host without using a hugger, then hug them. But if a xeno can pull that off it'll be clear in the logs and I'd say they've earned it.

Otherwise you could just force xenos to aim for the head and crippling without killing is impossible.
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Re: Aliens crippling infected.

Post by HalfdeadKiller » 18 Nov 2015, 20:52

"Do not harm infected hosts if they are defenseless or nested. Hosts that fight back are to be engaged non-lethally, unless the Queen specifies otherwise. Harming nested hosts is not necessary and can be counter-productive."

I would get rid of the part saying to aim for the head and kill infected hosts. Amend it by stating "Only harm infected hosts if the Queen allows it." Or remove it entirely and keep it as simple as Don't harm infected hosts. The only issue is what do you do if the infection icon breaks, and aliens can't tell someone is infected? (Not sure if it breaks anymore, I know it did a lot in the past, and I haven't played a lot of alien due to Real Life moving and stuff.)

Edit - Added a rewrite of the rule in my opinion. Further discussion needed.

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Re: Aliens crippling infected.

Post by Campor » 19 Nov 2015, 19:00

The issue isn't just infected hosts though. It's hugging them and crippling them before they're infected that's being used as a loophole that's one of the bigger problems in the thread.

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Re: Aliens crippling infected.

Post by Wickedtemp » 19 Nov 2015, 21:42

Whenever I would bring up an issue regarding the Xenos, it's normally met with quite a few people replying with "just git gud".

So, the solution is simple. Just don't get facehugged guys...

On a more serious note, as shitty as it is, the Xenos ARE intelligent, they WILL be able to figure out that, hey, if I broke this things foot, it probably wouldn't die and it wouldn't be able to run away! And if I break it's hand, it can't hold those stupid things that hurt us and burst flame! And if the Queen allows it, it'll be done.

I mean... The goal shouldn't be to kill, unless it's late-game and the xenos can easily afford to do so. And while using huggers to stun and THEN attacking and killing a host before they're infected is definitely a shitty thing to do, I don't think it should be against the rules. Frowned upon, might result in OOC salt and cause people not to like you? Sure. It's just a tactic, albeit a shitty one for the marines.

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Re: Aliens crippling infected.

Post by apophis775 » 19 Nov 2015, 21:46

I suppose, we can remove the alien ability to target anything other than a marine. That'll put an end to it.

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Re: Aliens crippling infected.

Post by Wickedtemp » 19 Nov 2015, 22:05

Why would the intelligent alien species not know that, by fucking up somebodies foot, they have now made the victim unable to escape? Specific targeting is observed in nature on earth as well. In recent weeks, there's been a marine damage buff and discussion of three xeno nerfs. One about disrupting the hivemind in the event that the Queen dies, one about making nests becoming useless when a host is taken out or breaks free, and now one discussing the possibility of removing limb targeting.

For an intelligent species it's just common sense to attack the problematic limb. If it's running, hit it in the legs that the host uses to run. If it's attacking, stab it in the hand that it's using to attack. Feral animals will do this. It's not uncommon. However much of an asshole it makes the alien in the scenario, it's still a sensible and viable tactic. Now, xenos will just be told "Oh, yeah, you can hit them. But only in that armored place on their chest! Yep, right where all that armor is. Don't worry 'bout the squishy bits like the hands and feet, not even worth it. Just keep attacking the chest." Getting around the armor is ANOTHER common sense thing. Attacking in place A doesn't seem to do anything. Perhaps try place B. Or, try place C. It doesn't look like it has protection on it! And sure enough, tears just like paper when clawed.

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Re: Aliens crippling infected.

Post by HalfdeadKiller » 19 Nov 2015, 23:15

Considering that we can't shoot off alien hands and feet, I am on board with the aliens only being able to slash the chest. Though this will make anyone who plays medical incredibly bored, since only the marines chest will be injured. Perhaps, instead, apply damage to a random limb upon an alien attacking a marine?

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Re: Aliens crippling infected.

Post by Toroic » 19 Nov 2015, 23:18

Wickedtemp wrote:Why would the intelligent alien species not know that, by fucking up somebodies foot, they have now made the victim unable to escape? Specific targeting is observed in nature on earth as well. In recent weeks, there's been a marine damage buff and discussion of three xeno nerfs. One about disrupting the hivemind in the event that the Queen dies, one about making nests becoming useless when a host is taken out or breaks free, and now one discussing the possibility of removing limb targeting.

For an intelligent species it's just common sense to attack the problematic limb. If it's running, hit it in the legs that the host uses to run. If it's attacking, stab it in the hand that it's using to attack. Feral animals will do this. It's not uncommon. However much of an asshole it makes the alien in the scenario, it's still a sensible and viable tactic. Now, xenos will just be told "Oh, yeah, you can hit them. But only in that armored place on their chest! Yep, right where all that armor is. Don't worry 'bout the squishy bits like the hands and feet, not even worth it. Just keep attacking the chest." Getting around the armor is ANOTHER common sense thing. Attacking in place A doesn't seem to do anything. Perhaps try place B. Or, try place C. It doesn't look like it has protection on it! And sure enough, tears just like paper when clawed.
The issue with xenos crippling is 0% about realism. What xenos would actually do instead of crippling is grapple and break the bones in the legs. On our server there are monkeys, so the concept of an endoskeleton is not going to be unknown, and any creature smart enough to infect and take a host alive, with hands, would be able to not use their claws.

The issue is that gameplay wise crippling reduces the chance for marines to escape to zero. It is beneficial to the game when marines constantly attempt to escape, which means they need a chance.

The reason marines trying to escape is important is because otherwise a marine will ghost the moment they are hugged, sentinels watching the hosts will be bored, and xeno team won't have to make important decisions over when to capture and when to kill.

The game is better (more fun for both sides) without crippling or easy breaching. That is reason enough to change things.

It should be force targeting the head, not the chest, because the head seems to take less hits to kill. The purpose is to remove crippling, not stealth nerf xenos.
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Re: Aliens crippling infected.

Post by Wickedtemp » 19 Nov 2015, 23:33

... I think having a random attack chance on a limb would be fine as long as it's balanced. Chest would be highest chance to hit, arms/legs/head/groin would probably all tie for second highest, then hands/feet. Eyes/mouth probably just toss those out, or have it be a minuscule hit chance. Targeting ONLY the chest is just a bit... too unrealistic, especially because the Xenos are supposed to be an intelligent species.

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