Why don't the Marines Push more? (A discussion to help development)

[Dyne]

Everything can outrun marines, as the aliens have full night vision.
Just make turns.

[Toroic]

Everything can outrun marines, as the aliens have full night vision.
Just make turns.

Not the same thing at all, because while vision and a marine's caution means that xenos can generally disengage when they wish, they cannot engage a fleeing marine very easily because the marine runs faster.

Xenos have a vision advantage and can easily disengage in open areas, but they struggle to engage against heavy fortification or in open areas if the marine wishes to flee.

[Dyne]

Call a faster sister then. Or spit.
You are speaking individual combat, I am speaking tactics.
Yes, sometimes marines run away. Still, organizationally aliens have the initiative.

[Wickedtemp]

Call a faster sister then. Or spit.
You are speaking individual combat, I am speaking tactics.
Yes, sometimes marines run away. Still, organizationally aliens have the initiative.

Calling in support from a faster xeno caste will take time. First, you've gotta type in "Say:a I need a runner by the big dome, I am being chased!" which means you have to stop moving. If you're not a fast typer, this probably means death because if it takes more than 3 seconds for you to type that message, 3 seconds of shooting with a rifle is enough to kill you.

Also, spit only works for a short duration, and only if it hits. First, if the marine is moving, it's difficult to hit the tile they're on. Second, if you happen to hit the tile they're on, there's a chance to miss them entirely so it can't always be relied on.

[Toroic]

Call a faster sister then. Or spit.
You are speaking individual combat, I am speaking tactics.
Yes, sometimes marines run away. Still, organizationally aliens have the initiative.

You're using a common debating tactic called "moving the goalposts."

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts

You said that xenos can outrun marines, which is maybe true for 2 of the 8 castes. Meaning you're wrong.

You've tried to say you're talking tactics, but xenos are not the only ones who can call for backup, so your point is moot and unrelated to whether a xeno can outrun a marine.

As a whole, marine mobility is far superior on the surface before hivelord tunnels are established, and on the sulaco vents are useful but also lead to a lot of unnecessary deaths. They're a gamble and the smartest way to use them is probably to jump to cyro and acid a wall, then rejoin the group.

[Dyne]

You said that xenos can outrun marines, which is maybe true for 2 of the 8 castes. Meaning you're wrong.

First: There are three castes. (+Queen)
Second: I said, specifically: "Also aliens have all the initiative- they can out-run and out-see marines, forcing aliens to a pitched battle is pretty hard."

Even in the rounds where aliens were very hard pressed you can disengage the bulk of your forces and re-engage in another spot,
unless all your paths of retreat are cut off.
Aliens heal on weeds, so simply running off into the dark is what you need, no ammo, no medical, very simple command structure.
Aliens are the perfect guerilla force.

If you cant see it all- you are not playing the same alien game I do.

You've tried to say you're talking tactics, but xenos are not the only ones who can call for backup, so your point is moot and unrelated to whether a xeno can outrun a marine.

Have you read the subject of the discussion?

As a whole, marine mobility is far superior...

Unless marines get lots of fast vehicles a marines individual mobility is a)low and b)unimportant, as we are dealing with a squad or an individual host playing into the aliens hands. Mobility without detection is nothing, so aliens hold the cards in both cases.
Only time marines do get that pitched battle is when aliens storm fortifications, or aliens get trapped defending fortified areas.

[Desolane900]

Marines need more incentive. Maybe adding a certain Viking related afterlife in the form of a battlecry before charging head first into the fray would change their minds? Also I feel like the usual unrobust marine feels the need to stay alive until the end of the round instead of accepting that A. it is a game. B. you will die in said game eventually. Another thing that doesn't help with turtling is that it is a group effort and so if Marine 1 sees that Marines 2 & 3 are staying behind a table, number 1 will refuse to go forward past the table even if ordered.

[Feweh]

You know, everyone is mentioning balance issues or death etc a the reason.

The real reason as to why Marines never push or retreat so quickly is because its more fun to defend and lose as a Marine.

Marines would rather defend the FOB from a large assault and narrowly make it out on the shuttle. Theyd rather defend Sulaco and have a large defense and epic stand off.

Attacking the aliens hive isnt fun or epic. Its a friendly fire fest down a one lane hallway.

People dont push to kill Aliens simply because its more fun to lose as a Marine.

Think about it.

[Disco Dalek]

You know, everyone is mentioning balance issues or death etc a the reason.

The real reason as to why Marines never push or retreat so quickly is because its more fun to defend and lose as a Marine.

Marines would rather defend the FOB from a large assault and narrowly make it out on the shuttle. Theyd rather defend Sulaco and have a large defense and epic stand off.

Attacking the aliens hive isnt fun or epic. Its a friendly fire fest down a one lane hallway.

People dont push to kill Aliens simply because its more fun to lose as a Marine.

Think about it.

When you put it that way, I have to agree. It's very rare for anyone to talk about how epic a hive assault was when compared to last stands in the FOB and the Sulaco.

[CabooseFox]

You know, everyone is mentioning balance issues or death etc a the reason.

The real reason as to why Marines never push or retreat so quickly is because its more fun to defend and lose as a Marine.

Marines would rather defend the FOB from a large assault and narrowly make it out on the shuttle. Theyd rather defend Sulaco and have a large defense and epic stand off.

Attacking the aliens hive isnt fun or epic. Its a friendly fire fest down a one lane hallway.

People dont push to kill Aliens simply because its more fun to lose as a Marine.

Think about it.

I think it also has to do with marine morale and player mentality as well. Marines don't want to die and players don't want to be out of the round 5 minutes in. They want to stick to the end and have some cool moments, which is hard to do when your stumbling over each other in a narrow corridor getting acid shot at you. I also feel like Marine players want that power fantasy of being a badass marine that can take on the world. You don't get this in the hive. You feel like you're isolated in a creepy place where you could die at any moment to some bullshit hunter appearing out of no where and dragging you off into the darkness. In the FOB though, that's your position. You know every room and every escape path. You know how to defend it and it feels awesome to have the structure of it all. Not to mention how much easier it is for some one to give orders when everyone is statically defending an area rather than moving constantly and barely looking at their text chat.

[Steelpoint]

Charging into a unknown Hive is far more likely to result in your death than defending a fixed location.

Marines are well suited to defence due to their weapons, and the fact they have local knowledge of where to fallback to gives them the edge in wanting to defend.

Also I should note the expectaction of Marines to defend over assault is not unrealistic considering the source material of the only Marine assault in the movie resulting in the majority of the Marines dying or being captured.

[Peachy2912]

You know, everyone is mentioning balance issues or death etc a the reason.

The real reason as to why Marines never push or retreat so quickly is because its more fun to defend and lose as a Marine.

Marines would rather defend the FOB from a large assault and narrowly make it out on the shuttle. Theyd rather defend Sulaco and have a large defense and epic stand off.

Attacking the aliens hive isnt fun or epic. Its a friendly fire fest down a one lane hallway.

People dont push to kill Aliens simply because its more fun to lose as a Marine.

Think about it.

This is very much true, it is a heck of a lot more fun to defend a fixed location against the xeno hordes rather than walking through a resin hell with huggers and stuns around every corner. Even if the assault on the hive succeeds, the marines aren't rewarded with the gratification of a win, they instead have to hunt around the map for the next 10-60 minutes looking for the stragglers that survived, which is rather dull and boring compared to an epic last stand.

[RhMoore]

This is why Stalin had the "no-retreat" order; we're having the same dilemma.

[Wesmas]

Pushing as marines is messy. We dont use any formations, we just move in a direction. We dont have clear paths to fire, causing many friendly fire incidents. We also lack a lot of heavy weapons. I used to be a part of an Arma 3 group, which was based on British Royal Marines. In a section of 8 men, we had a rocket launcher, a LMG, a marksman and normaly someone with an underslung granade launcher. The fact is once you get past 20 marines, 80% or so are using M41A rifle, which is single shot okay damage. Its not terrible, but its not versitile.
Defending however, we can build the turrets which are great at keeping aliens away. We can funnle aliens into narrow paths with mines in, and have lots of fire going through them. We have cover which slows them down. It is very easy to defend with the equipment, but atacking takes a great deal of co-oridnation, planning and a fair ammount of luck. Mentaly, its more comfortable staying where we are, rather than trying to move forwards into the unkown. Marines rarely have the initiative. Even when defending, the aliens have a good intel as to where marines are, allowing them to focus atacks properly.

[HalfdeadKiller]

As a marine engineer, I've had a lot of success at using Sentry Turrets offensively. You drag em with ya, and when you encounter the front line, simply set it up and guard it. It is basically a ghetto smartgunner, as it shoots through friendlies. You can also manually control it if the turret is being stupid with it's aiming, or you need to fire off screen.

[Yealsey]

As it stands, xeno team is generally 90% playing to win. Maybe 50% of the marine team does.

I agree. Most xeno rounds i've played all of us contribute. and i've seen maybe 8 or 9 serious marines that try and follow orders. Most of them just like having big guns. and looking cool.

[Inaf]

i haven't read the thread

I found one terrible disadvantage of aliens so far. It could be just me, but...
Aliens have no names. Play as an alien is alwyas one round play - it lacks social thingy.
You cannot become a hero as an alien. You cannot get known beyond players as an alien. Just compare:
*a single marine John 'The Bullet' Johns bravely kills ravager in 1v1 fight with his knife. Will the spectators remember his name? Hell yeah! Will they act diffrent when meet John Johons in other rounds? Hell yeah!
*a single Boiler (969) who flanked marines and took down 10+ in one shot. Noone will ever remember this player just because that Boiler has no name!

That is why some do not play aliens and try to save their lives as marines.

I do not know how to solve that. I can propose nicknames, like Ravager 'Red Fear' (345). I would love to take constatnt nickname as an alien.

[Yealsey]

i haven't read the thread

I found one terrible disadvantage of aliens so far. It could be just me, but...
Aliens have no names. Play as an alien is alwyas one round play - it lacks social thingy.
You cannot become a hero as an alien. You cannot get known beyond players as an alien. Just compare:
*a single marine John 'The Bullet' Johns bravely kills ravager in 1v1 fight with his knife. Will the spectators remember his name? Hell yeah! Will they act diffrent when meet John Johons in other rounds? Hell yeah!
*a single Boiler (969) who flanked marines and took down 10+ in one shot. Noone will ever remember this player just because that Boiler has no name!

That is why some do not play aliens and try to save their lives as marines.

I do not know how to solve that. I can propose nicknames, like Ravager 'Red Fear' (345). I would love to take constatnt nickname as an alien.

How about a suggestion? Maybe top 3 numbers for alien players?

[Azmodan412]

How about a suggestion? Maybe top 3 numbers for alien players?

Definitely. I am in Florida currently, but I am keeping a StickyNote of the best alien players I've seen. One of them was Matt(some numeric code) who was a Ravager, the last alive, and took down 20+ marines with him. I put myself on the list for hugging 26ish marines as a Carrier, even prompting the Queen to extoll that life's virtues like throwing huggers so hard they caught fire and went through helmets.

[Inaf]

How about a suggestion? Maybe top 3 numbers for alien players?

I proposed alien nicknames. You could set a nickname for alien in player setup.

[Yealsey]

Yes nicknames would be pretty applicable, however I don't see them being very IC'ish.

[Inaf]

Yes nicknames would be pretty applicable, however I don't see them being very IC'ish.

Sometimes gameplay is more important than IC-authentity. For example, limit on helmets you can put into your backpack.

[SkyeAuroline]

Combination of factors I've noticed, though I admittedly don't play here that often. Mostly in the last few days, recently.

* Marines are dumb. Let's face it, 90% of the Marines at any given point are incapable of playing marines. Yeah, that percentage has included me at times. I'm unrobust. The problem is, it means that the manpower advantage evaporates entirely. When out of 60 marines, only 5 or 6 are competent, you're still pretty much screwed.
* Marines don't organize. See the previous point. It's human wave tactics or nothing, and no one wants to be cannon fodder.
* New Alien meta. No one wants to be stuck in a honeycomb with three T3s watching over them, just to belt them in within half a second of getting free. On one of the later-night rounds, I was stuck waiting for a host to pop on the larva in me for twenty-seven minutes before I ghosted. Every time I managed to get free, a boiler or a ravager would drop me back into the net before I could even click anything in my inventory. That's personal experience, but something widely reflected.
* Everyone wants to be a hero. See the first point. Again. No one here roleplays as an actual soldier that follows orders. Again, guilty as charged, but the "high RP" expectation falls flat, and this is THE most prominent place it does. No one acts like a soldier, they act like Rambo with a free gun. As I write this, you just announced: "SPOILERS: Disobeying your squad leader, classifies as "incompetence" and can result in bans." I've NEVER seen this in action; in fact, the only bans I can recall seeing off-hand were on people who were doing a far better job of doing their jobs, and roleplaying, than anyone else.
* Defending the FOB is honestly more fun/interesting, especially when undermanned. No one wants LOL RANDOM FACEHUGGER INSTANT-DEATH-SENTENCE out of the dark while the xenos have perfect night vision. At least the FOB has lights and defenses.

I can edit with more later, as I think of it.

[Azmodan412]

Actually, there is some uniqueness already in place. If an alien kills a Yautja, which is unlikely without teamwork, they get an 'Elite' tag before their name. Say a Praetorian deals the killing blow on said Yautja, the Praetorian will be known as 'Elite Praetorian (1-1000)'. Still has my +1 however.

[SASoperative]

Because we have made them to defensive with sentry guns. Barricades. All this stuff. They need more offensive equipment to actually want to do a offensive. They have all this defensive equipment and think. "Hey, We have barricades. We have Sentry turrets, we gotta utilize that shit ASAP." And than make a FOB which they rarely leave.