Gameplay Discussion: Predators

[spheretech]

Vara'ule V'var-de for predator whitelist removal - working with the humans, using a /riot shield/ to wipe out the last aliens, that's against the lore of them to deliberately wipe out the aliens though?

Another notable part: After fighting a ravager, "EAST SIDE BITCH!", I looked in the rules and the rule against "gangster" talk is for aliens, I'm assuming that stuff is a whitelist issue anyway...

I adminhelped the former part and got 0 response, Ordukai and Gentlefood were online, I don't think whitelists can solve these kind of issues, as soon as people get given privileges on the internet it tends to not be long before it gets abused if there's no one trying to do any oversight of it.

I agree that most predators do things they shouldn't do, and as I mentioned before, no player can be trusted with that kind of overpowered role. It becomes very difficult to remove actual bad but known players from the whitelist, like staff. If anything it should be treated as an event role, someone unbiased should always be watching and keeping things in line.

[Feweh]

I was online for 75% of this round and Gelonvia was fine. I cant contest to the ending result of what you guys are complaining about though.

If theres a serious issue use the "player report" section. We had a few people watching Predators that round as well. The only thing that was a minor no-no is the riot shield, simply because its a bit power-gamey to use as a Pred.

[Gelonvia]

I was online for 75% of this round and Gelonvia was fine. I cant contest to the ending result of what you guys are complaining about though.

If theres a serious issue use the "player report" section. We had a few people watching Predators that round as well. The only thing that was a minor no-no is the riot shield, simply because its a bit power-gamey to use as a Pred.

Gentlefood aswell watched me for 50% of the ending part and said they would stick up for me. Anyways I did talk with Xeno and they just didn't know that the Queen was roundstalling after 3hrs and more of a round. Either way we came to an Agreement that the only thing thats questionable is the shield which I never actually got to use sense I got screeched and left it there. Which again leads this back to that theres things the playerbase doesn't know about in scenario's, although it was nice poking Xenmorphs brain and hearing how they felt and learning their preference while having a civilized conversation!

Anyways, again to quote myself and Feweh, if you are actually serious about a complaint then use the complain section, this isn't the place.

This DOES bring up a Topic though that involves this bit. The shield is not listed in the Rules as a no-no, and I have seen Abby use one before. This circles back to that whole thing about Predators need their Rules fully defined and threshed out. I think we can all agree that the Rules ATM seem like only the Predators and higher staff know them and they are left incredibly vague.

[Kailas]

They're just a mod class, totally invulnerable unless they make themselves vulnerable for fun, you can't make that part of the regular game and let anyone play them, that's called intentionally breaking your game. To people who interact with them it's just like being RPK'd by mod powers, it's stupid.

You might be able to make them work as a stealth/trap faction but the current better-than-everyone-at-everything-and-extremely-tough approach is moronic

[Allan1234]

This is not the place for pred complaints or appeals.

If you have a complaint post it in the player report section with aduqate evidence.

All posts relateing to the complaint have been deleted from this topic.

[forwardslashN]

Something else I've noticed, predators can't seem to effectively hunt xenos without using the plasma caster or traps. So, plasma caster stun, then kill. It is too easy for the fighting castes to retreat, especially on weeds, since they have no slow down due to damage unlike marines. The predator can't keep up with xenos on weeds, and will either give up the hunt, or get distracted by another xeno trying to attack it. I observed Jones fighting a hunter, and the hunter could simply run away after one or two hits to heal. Even after the hunter bonking and missing a few pounces, the predator couldn't kill it. Some of this has to do with SS13 click based combat and melee, but the other part comes from the xenos themselves.

[Nick123q23]

I agree that most predators do things they shouldn't do, and as I mentioned before, no player can be trusted with that kind of overpowered role. It becomes very difficult to remove actual bad but known players from the whitelist, like staff. If anything it should be treated as an event role, someone unbiased should always be watching and keeping things in line.

Any player can handle an overpowered role if they or others hold them accountable for everything they do, and they, instead of going on a power trip and murdering everything that exists, ration their abilitys and observe what each side is doing before taking actions

What might be a good idea is to expand on Youngbloods. Have them have to go through an X number of mandatory "trial hunts" with an elder yautja who would teach them what to do, instead of allowing new people to jump right in as a full hunter alone right after their whitelist is accepted.

[sicktrigger]

how about making it so predators aren't allowed to directly side with either humans or the xenos? gifting junk to marines you like is fine, but stuff like actively assisting the defence during a hive assault, or helping a wounded marine escape xenos is p. shitty for the other side.

something like 'do not interfere in marine/xeno engagements' or whatever

[Jack McIntyre]

I can honestly say as pred I am getting tired of marines whose names I am not familiar with pointing guns at me, most of the people I know their marine name as a good roleplayer will actually try to stop said idiot marines from just blasting away, and those guys usually get my gifts since they are being honorable then just blasting away. I can also state that as a pred I only bring out my caster if a xeno is running from after fighting for a bit in melee due to the fact that most xenos (I have skinned almost all the xenos so I don't go actively hunting for them, these ones attack me first like pounce and then expect me to just let them run off after they have done it a few times especially after slashing me a few times. So if you do that, just a fair warning I will blast you.) However I can agree most preds who are staff I have hunted with, there is no actively trying to wipe out one side or another it is usually just kinda of watching the two sides and killing anyone who goes full idiot mode and attack us because we want to just roleplay, we don't want to kill unless we have to.

[qsleepy]

I've been thinking about this.


I think the pred should be a ravager with a plasma caster. If they had to do running hits instead of being able to get slashed by a whole hive of xeno's, it would really make it so you have to be a supreme hunter. Then I'd move to get whitelisted.

[qsleepy]

So here is a great example of why the pred is absolutely terrible right now, regardless of who's playing it.


Predator was a mod, won't name names. I chestburst into mother announcements of 4 xenos (with a queen, what the fuck?) directing marines to the action. We take out 3 waves of marines and have literally 10+ hosts when the mod predator shows up pointing at our queen.


We are literally scraping by trying to get our numbers up, the mod is doing mother announcements and starts attacking us with the predator. We are told to ignore it by queen (pretty much everyones go-to strategy with predators) and scout around our immediate base. I return to another wave of marines we could have easily dealt with, but guess who snuck in to a non-combative queen and kills her?


Yeah. Super cool. I came by at one point the queen had the pred downed with a t2 and t1 slashing it. She dies 30 seconds later.



The pred finds me at the end when I am head hunting/terrorizing marines waiting for one to learn to shoot straight, calls me a coward for not wanting to get slashed 4 times by the ultra pred and die.



Other than that, the round was really fun. Kind of sucks that people have to inject what THEY want to happen when they are admins or a special role that says you are supposed to fight creatures that are worthy, not ignoring you because there is literally almost no way to kill a pred without 5 t3 chasing and slashing it and get lucky and corner it.

[Gentlefood]

So here is a great example of why the pred is absolutely terrible right now, regardless of who's playing it.


Predator was a mod, won't name names. I chestburst into mother announcements of 4 xenos (with a queen, what the fuck?) directing marines to the action. We take out 3 waves of marines and have literally 10+ hosts when the mod predator shows up pointing at our queen.


We are literally scraping by trying to get our numbers up, the mod is doing mother announcements and starts attacking us with the predator. We are told to ignore it by queen (pretty much everyones go-to strategy with predators) and scout around our immediate base. I return to another wave of marines we could have easily dealt with, but guess who snuck in to a non-combative queen and kills her?


Yeah. Super cool. I came by at one point the queen had the pred downed with a t2 and t1 slashing it. She dies 30 seconds later.



The pred finds me at the end when I am head hunting/terrorizing marines waiting for one to learn to shoot straight, calls me a coward for not wanting to get slashed 4 times by the ultra pred and die.



Other than that, the round was really fun. Kind of sucks that people have to inject what THEY want to happen when they are admins or a special role that says you are supposed to fight creatures that are worthy, not ignoring you because there is literally almost no way to kill a pred without 5 t3 chasing and slashing it and get lucky and corner it.

Not naming names is counter-intuitive. If you have a player complaint regardless of if they're a mod or not, you should post it in the complaint section. That way the rest of the staff can look into the issue and see if it was as truly heinous as you are claiming.

[qsleepy]

I actually don't know who the player was. They know who they are. Look in the player complaints, this whole, "attack the xeno's while they are down with a pred" is a reoccuring problem, and I am pretty sure the pred I am talking about was a mod/admin.

[zskninoh]

I personally think preds are in a good spot right now. While they do tote an overpowered arsenal, the code of honor stops them from randomly gunning down a fuck-ton of marines and aliens. This server is HEAVILY role play based, with that being said the preds add a very interesting RP element into the game. People often complain about them getting their shit rekt. We've all (or most of us) have seen a Yautja in one of the various movies, comics, or books. So people shouldn't get pissy when you try to 10 v 1 a pred and you don't like the outcome.

P.S, On a side note, why are some post a bright white and other are not?

[spheretech]

I personally think preds are in a good spot right now. While they do tote an overpowered arsenal, the code of honor stops them from randomly gunning down a fuck-ton of marines and aliens. This server is HEAVILY role play based, with that being said the preds add a very interesting RP element into the game. People often complain about them getting their shit rekt. We've all (or most of us) have seen a Yautja in one of the various movies, comics, or books. So people shouldn't get pissy when you try to 10 v 1 a pred and you don't like the outcome.

P.S, On a side note, why are some post a bright white and other are not?

The problem begins when those who are supposed to supervise predators for code of honor ARE the predators

[zskninoh]

The problem begins when those who are supposed to supervise predators for code of honor ARE the predators

The solution to that is simple, if you feel that a pred is breaking the code of honor get the logs, take a few screenies and file a formal player report.

[Feweh]

The problem begins when those who are supposed to supervise predators for code of honor ARE the predators

Write a complaint on the forum like what was recently done.

[Ms.Degrasse]

I enjoy the predators presence in this game.
I am not whitelisted so I never played as one, but I had interesting interactions with them, the opportunity to collect some of their equipments and use it in-game and I also have the habit of following them while ghosted for watching closely those amazing characters.
They add a lot to the immersion and the fun factor!

From what I see? The problem here usually is predators doing unintended things. Tipping the round balance towards the marines. And/or abusing their powers

They represent a force of the nature, with powers far beyond the ones of a normal player.
But powers must came with a responsibility.
Or, at least, a in-game objective.
Otherwise it may end just like someone putting IDDQD and IDKFA codes on Doom.

My suggestionsis based on allying LORE to PROGRAMMING, for giving them clear objectives and reinforcing them as "the role of evening the odds" for both sides when necessary.(Or the role of doing opposite of this when the game is balanced, but only when aliens or humans actually give predators a reason to pick a side.)

First of all? Predators aren't intended to wipe an entire species (be it aliens or humans). - So they must have a way to know, at least, when aliens are too scarce.
An "aliens population" counter on their huds would do the trick. This may be even count huggers, larvas, drones and queen sepparately. And it may give an "imminent game extinction" alert when aliens population is too low compared to the marines population.

Or it may be just a simple symbol, changing it's appeareance when the server get more marines than aliens, giving the extinction alert based on the unbalance factor.
It may also server as an alert to marines getting extincted too.

Fact is, this kind of information is needed for the players to know when to pause the hunting.

Then?
I also think predators should receive in-game objectives, as is done with antagonists in normal SS13 builds, but those being optimized to the server situation AND based on the aliens vs predators lore.

How that would work? Let-me exemplify!
A script evaluate the server situation when predator spawns. (The exact traitor or changeling script does that in many server builds.)
Then it define the predator chaste (or class) and attributes to them objectives exactly as it's done to antagonists on SS13 servers.

It will choose between some basic predator types and give them the appropriated goals.
(Obs.: Take a look here for the lore http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Yautja_%28Predator%29 )

Predator types may be as following.

YOUNG BLOOD / HUNTER TYPE
Lorewise, those are younger predators, trying their best to prove themselves and not restricted in their hunts.
Gamewise, it will be a predator designed to even the odds, by killing and collecting trophies from specific player types. They play on "easy mode" actually.

Would be for spawning in highly populated server situations, with a alien/humans unbalance. Targets being based on player demographics.
More aliens than humans, most of them of low tiers? Objective is adjusted to getting those.
Lots of high tier aliens, with aliens in advantage? They will go after them instead.
The script must also take the number of larvas, huggers and drones into consideration for eventually placing an alien queen as a target.
Much more humans than aliens? Humans are the target instead.

Important stuff? The goals.
- The HONOR goal: This goal they fail by killing a player that never tried to harm them back. (A check if they directly killed someone that never hit them. Easy thing to do.)
- The PRESERVATION goal: They FAIL if they kill more (or much more) than intended (must be an exact number, declared on goals), if they kill the last alien or last human on the server and if they kill any alien after the extinction threshold is alarmed (In the last case, they will have to wait for it to get back to normal levels).
- The HUNTING goal: They win if they kill the exact number and types declared on the objective (and it's calculated to reduce the unbalance on server).
Those can use any weapon for this task. After all they are here to balance the server, and lorewise those are novice predators, in a mission to just prove themselves to their clans, as seen in aliens versus predator movies
- The TROPHY goal: They win when they collect the related number of skulls (or hides) from the exact type of players they had to hunt, adequately prepare those (this must take some time, as seen in predator movies, also because it gives them something to do other than just killing players - it's Yautja's most important art) and place them in a appropriated rack on the ship.
Obs.: Trophies must be unique to every alien types and to human. Rack may accept human weapons as trophies, instead of human skulls, if it's the case of not harming the cloning proccess (as seen in predator 2, they collect guns). Or it may accept weapons just for roleplay purposes anyway, not counting toward the objectives.
.

BLOODED / WARRIOR TYPE

A predator designed gamewise for underpopulated AND unbalanced servers.
So are basically predators in hard mode.
Lorewise, those are predators looking for a harder game.
Usually high tier aliens. Maybe the queen. Or even humans.

They work exactly like the hunter type, with the addition of one goal.

- The WARRIOR goal: They must use contact weapons against the intended targets. (They LOSE if they make use of any other weapon type AND the victim dies by their hands. - That force the player to only use smartdisks, plasma caster and the like in a defensive situation.)

And yes... Those predators may receive, for example, the goal of killing an alien type that isn't present yet on the game, just for making them have to explore the map and wait umtil that target appears.

ELITE / VETERAN TYPE

Those are designed gamewise for BALANCED servers....
Lorewise, those are predators that already killed an alien queen.
They are bored. Looking for challenges.
They will do experiments as seen in the movies, and prepare tests for younger predators.
Essentially they are predators in a nightmare mode, but with one benefit.

- They receive ALL THE GOALS from the other predator types. (And they always target both aliens and humans, in appropriated numbers for the server population.)
Their hunting goals includes members of BOTH SPECIES, in a small quantity.
Plus they receive the following goals:
- The SPECIALLIST goal: They must either attack and kill the designed targets only with one weapon type the entire round. (It's a basic script to check this.) Not doing so, make them LOSE on this goal. They also LOSE this goal if they attack anyone 5 seconds after turning off the camouflage
- The EXPERIMENTATION goal: They receive a special item, that works more or less like a recorder, and with this they must collect a certain number of phrases from marines and aliens. And they also must play it back to them a certain quantity of times too. The item may allow them to select specific phrases but not to identify what is being said. (As seen in Predator and Predator 2, it will lead to hilarious and entertaining results. Is lore friendly. And gives them something else to do other than just killing players.)
- The TEACHER goal: They receive a special net-pistol, for capturing some facehuggers and taking them to the ship. Loreise this will be for preparing future tests for novice predators. Gamewise for another entertaining thing to be done.
- The EVALUATION goal: They must also pick up some samples of marine equipment, for evaluating human's potentials as hunters (being future apprentices, as in lore). At least a piece of armor, a helmet, boots and some weapons.
- The benefit this class receives? SELF-DEFENSE. If a player attacks them first, and they kill that player, this specific kill doesn't count towards excessive kills on PRESERVATION goal, so it never cause this goal to fail. (Basically a game mechanic that will put the burden of eventual unbalance actually on the hands of humans and aliens.) They may use any weapon is this situation without failing the SPECIALLIST goal BUT by doing so this specific kill also won't count towards the HUNTING GOAL. (It's their choice to choose wisely what to do when attacked.)

ADJYDICATOR TYPE

Essentially a script for predators targetting predators. (With a good reason for it!)
When a predator spawns, and there's already predators in game that failed his HONOR and PRESERVATION goals?
The predator spawned will be an ADJUDICATOR TYPE (and lorewise, the predators who failed those goals will be defined as "bad bloods").
Technically the adjudicator is a predator of any type adequated to the server situation, but with an additional goal that is to slay and collect the other predator's head to his trophy rack. - And he can use any weapon on this case.

- Adjudicator may receive a tracker item too, that tracks the bad bloods!

This will give predators a serious reason for not failing the two most important goals. (The ones that when failed means the humans or aliens are being put at disvantage.)
And also create an in-game mechanic that will unburden admins on having to deal with predators acting out of their rules.

Looks good? Looks bad? Let-me know.
And feel free to adapt anything you may want if implementing it, do any change and even to drop a spoon of salt on this.
- It's just a constructive suggestion after all.

[Azmodan412]

1. Holy fuck yes.
2. Holy fuck yes.
3. Holy fuck yes.
Did I mention 'holy fuck yes'?

[forwardslashN]

I'm not sure that stuff is needed. Predators are meant to make rounds interesting, not to be super special snowflake antagonists. Not having set goals during a round promotes creativity. The biggest problems with predators as I see them: 1) ambiguity in what they can and cannot do, though this should be resolved when the new guidelines go into place; 2) complete domination and one sidedness in combat, as even the strongest aliens cannot beat them in a fair fight; 3) lack of any reliable means of actually finishing off aliens without either stunning them first with the caster or smart disking. If the people playing predators are so bad they need to be held on a leash with programmable objectives, they should probably stick to something other than pred.

With that said, giving them more things to do in general would be nice, along with some generic guidelines for what they should be doing during a round. Kind of like survivors, where on spawn the predator has a few random guidelines or directives on what they want to accomplish during the round. For example: "Your clan has recently lost an important heirloom, and the elders are growing restless. Honor your clan name by recovering any ancient trinkets you come across, and maybe your elders will sate their anger." And I do want to see adjudicators actually hunt down bad-bloods once in a while, since that would be an interesting thing to run into if you are a marine or xeno.

[LordeKilly]

I'm not sure that stuff is needed. Predators are meant to make rounds interesting, not to be super special snowflake antagonists. Not having set goals during a round promotes creativity. The biggest problems with predators as I see them: 1) ambiguity in what they can and cannot do, though this should be resolved when the new guidelines go into place; 2) complete domination and one sidedness in combat, as even the strongest aliens cannot beat them in a fair fight; 3) lack of any reliable means of actually finishing off aliens without either stunning them first with the caster or smart disking. If the people playing predators are so bad they need to be held on a leash with programmable objectives, they should probably stick to something other than pred.

With that said, giving them more things to do in general would be nice, along with some generic guidelines for what they should be doing during a round. Kind of like survivors, where on spawn the predator has a few random guidelines or directives on what they want to accomplish during the round. For example: "Your clan has recently lost an important heirloom, and the elders are growing restless. Honor your clan name by recovering any ancient trinkets you come across, and maybe your elders will sate their anger." And I do want to see adjudicators actually hunt down bad-bloods once in a while, since that would be an interesting thing to run into if you are a marine or xeno.

I'd like this idea, especially could spice up rounds if a bad blood allies the humans and when an Abdjucator arrives, they fight him off, and then use the bad blood to push into the hive, or make him an honorary marine with some armor and a helmet? Giving predators traitor-esqe objectives could make rounds similar to how the old predator antag worked on older stations and codebases.

On a side note, when I pred I usually try to be hostile to both from the start, or wait to see which one wrongs me first, and focus on such. I do, however, tend to lay off when I see one side is heavily pushing the other, and on the flipside assault when marines/xenos are turtling. I'm not saying all people do this, but from what i've seen from coronel and aby is that they tend to not take favor really, just in it for the skins.

And I did it all for the nookie.

[Feweh]

My biggest issue with Predator currently is the lob-sided combat with Xeno's.

You can't catch most xeno's, so they run after taking a couple of hits and even the strongest tier aliens will lose in a 1 vs 1. Spitters/Praes/Sentinels/Boilers are completely useless against Predators and will drop instantly if they encounter one. Ravager is really the only Xeno capable of holding his own against a Predator. Fighting Xeno's as a Predator is just wasteful and there's no way to RP with them in anyway either so.
At least EVERY marine can fight and do some damage against a predator.. which is why Predators are always allying or killing Marines.

[qsleepy]

Yeah some kind of hard coded lore deal would really could work, but when i've played, there is NO way the pred doesn't/didn't know were weren't under the gun heavily. It would have to come with punishments.

[Ms.Degrasse]

Actually? My suggestion covered many aspect you mentioned, guys.

"...ambiguity in what they can and cannot do, though this should be resolved when the new guidelines go into place..."

- A guideline is hard to follow without a gaming mechanic that allow the player to know if he's doing the right thing.
Making the guideline an in-game goal (honor and preservation goals)?
Will do the trick.
Having an in-game harsh punishment for breaking it (predator being tagged as bad blood and hunted by adjudicator predators)?
Reinforce the guideline.
The rest fall under the goals.
Predator picked up a human shield? Ok. Let him use it.
But if he kill too many aliens he's screwed anyway.

"...complete domination and one sidedness in combat, as even the strongest aliens cannot beat them in a fair fight..."

- Goals again.
Just for an example?
"As the unblooded hunter, you are assigned to kill and get the trophies of two runners, two spitters and one crusher."
This player FAILS if he kills much more than this, specially alien types not mentioned on goal.
And also fails if he kills player not hostile towards him. (Honor goal.)
That changes the "god mode player" into someone that is still overpower, but will need to be very careful in their strategies.
Also the goal will set predators to kill marines when the server is in the opposite situation or even when balanced. (Again? Same thing applies.)

"...lack of any reliable means of actually finishing off aliens without either stunning them first with the caster or smart disking...."

- This will depend on server situation.
Overpopulated server? Unblooded hunter types can do it.
Underpopulated servers? The types spawned can't. (And this is on purpose, so they will actually have to fight with another strategy in mind, have a harder game and so won't kill spree aliens.)

"...I'd like this idea, especially could spice up rounds if a bad blood allies the humans and when an Abdjucator arrives, they fight him off, and then use the bad blood to push into the hive, or make him an honorary marine with some armor and a helmet?..."

- This is what I was expecting to happen.
Predator became bad blood when he deals too many losses to one side.
Then he allies with the other side against the adjudicator.
But on this situation, adjudicator spawns with objectives tuned to server situation.
"Bad blood reduced aliens, putting them into advantage?"
-> Adjudicator will have humans as targets when he spawns.
(Having the bad blood in their ranks will actually makes things easier to adjudicator. As humans will be his game.)

"...My biggest issue with Predator currently is the lob-sided combat with Xeno's. You can't catch most xeno's, so they run after taking a couple of hits and even the strongest tier aliens will lose in a 1 vs 1. ..."

- Here is when things get interesting.
In overpopulated server with too many aliens? The unblooded "hunter" predators spawned can use plasmacaster / smartdisk / long ranged weapons on targets at will.
(And by doing so, while keeping the HONOR and PRESERVATION goals up? They balance the server.)
In underpopulated but with aliens on advantage? Blooded "warrior" predators will pass the entire round trying to ambush the alien into a trap. (And this is the intention. To give those players a hard gamemode to play, that actually doesn't harm the aliens side that much.)

"...which is why Predators are always allying or killing Marines..."

- They will hunt marines when server have much more of thse than aliens, making them imprevisible as the thing they actually are taking lore in consideration.
BUT they can ally with marines when their game are aliens.
However, honor and preservation goals will keep them away from overkilling.
(They surely don't want a predator coming for them.)

"...there is NO way the pred doesn't/didn't know were weren't under the gun heavily. It would have to come with punishments..."

- Adjudicators are, game wise, actually the worse punishment possible.

And yes, taking into consideration that aliens attack predators gratuitously (and this, while we knoe are just players going to the harder game, is actually something real aliens would do), on populated servers predators are really into an easy game mode. Having to take care just about not doing dishonored kills or putting any species in risk of extinction.

[Rabidgam3r]

This is an amazing idea, but my only problem is that those objectives could be a bit touchy. What if the youngblood has filled its alien kills quota but accidentally kills another runner in a crossfire? It'd be a lot of walking on eggshells around whoever your target is once you've killed enough of them. Not too big of a problem with enough effort put into balancing it, but still something worth thinking about.