Prevalence Of Facehugger Based Combat

[Steelpoint]

Also as Stamina damage builds up the victim will move slower and slower, thus even a single hit can really cripple a Marine in the short term.

Whereas Lethal damage won't stun a Human nor will it slow them down, but it will cripple them in the long term thus forcing them to retreat from battle. Or it'll outright kill them.

Predators and Specialists with the B18 Armour would not be as affected due to their robust armour/training.

@Surrealistik I was just finishing typing my suggestion as you posted your idea so yes.

[Fritigern]

Sounds like a good suggestion to me. Aliens will have to actually fight the marines, and it actually helps aliens who don't have a facehugger on hand. Instead of being forced to kill the marine because they lack a facehugger to CC them, they can just beat the shit out of them until they're stunned and then move them as needed.

[Rey]

Well, of course I want to see it gone.

[spheretech]

This sounds like it could work. A brawl mode button that causes you to only do stamina damage so you can knock things out.

[Wickedtemp]

Okay, and then after this is put in?

"WOW DUMB XENOS STUNLOCKING ME AND THEN DECAPPING, WTF!"

"OMG FUCKING XENOS AND THEIR INFINITE STUNLOCK DISARM ITS FUCKING GAY AS SHIT!"

"WOW XENOS AGAIN WITH THE STUNLOCK SPAM"

This is going to happen. Because either the stunlock will have to be powerful enough to actually transport a marine to a hive, (thus making it insanely annoying and probably almost unbreakable), or the xenos get kneecapped because they just lost their ability to actually capture hosts, save for carriers.

Also I'm insanely against locking egg-laying to the Hive. I saw it brought up somewhere once and decided to say this: It's fucking stupid. Otherwise, every time the carrier runs out of huggers, no matter where they are, they'll have to run all the way back to the hive to resupply. What happens if the Carrier is on the Sulaco and runs out? What happens if they manage to run to the hive only to find out that the eggs had been used up, are you now going to make the Queen drop what they're doing and run back to the Hive to lay eggs for the carrier? What if they're currently in an assault or 'forward nest'? So leave that as it is, lay eggs on weeds.

Back to the stunlocking suggestion.. again, it's going to need to be powerful, because if it isn't, the hassle to take ONE marine to the hive would require at least two or three xenos continuously spamming 'disarm'. Because you can sure as hell bet that the Marine player is spamming every arrow key they can, and clicking on every xeno they can, doing everything in their power to NOT get taken to the hive. And the xenos would need to be able to succeed in doing this more often than not, else they'll never grow. So they'll need an unbreakable grab and more powerful disarm, which will no doubt be abusable in combat, unless you put in timing nerfs (IE "Xeno is battering Marine's body with their tail, bruising the flesh and weakening their body!"), which kind of defeats the purpose because those time delay nerfs would make it impossible to catch a lone marine in the first place. Xenos WILL spam disarm as an alternative to slashing in an attempt to quickly knock down marines, and given the amount of friendly fire and pain due to other injuries, it won't take many hits at all to accomplish that. Once the marines are incapacitated, the carrier comes in and hugs them and they all get nested. Salt increases and forum posts are made about how the stunlock needs to be nerfed.

EDIT: I'd like to see hugger-combat done away with as much as the next guy, but the alternative will need to have most if not all of the qualities of huggers. A fast-acting, long-term stun or knockdown with minimal chance of escape. An unbreakable grab on it's own won't do it, because the ENTIRE TIME this marine is going to be punching, shooting, stabbing, biting, clawing, literally anything they can do, until they go into paincrit from acid blood, or until they kill the xeno... And what's the main source of the salt behind huggers? Because it's a fast-acting, long term stun/knockdown, and you have a minimal chance of escape.

[Surrealistik]

Stunlocking probably won't be as powerful as facehugging in that it's not set and forget, but it would pave the way for other buffs to the alien castes that lost it.

[Wickedtemp]

Stunlocking probably won't be as powerful as facehugging in that it's not set and forget, but it would pave the way for other buffs to the alien castes that lost it.

If xenos are given a stunlocking disarm intent, it wouldn't be much hassle to just drag the marine and click on them while pulling, thus stunlock5ever. One could even argue that this would be WORSE than combat-huggers, because it's something any xeno can do regardless of hugger quantity. They can do it forever, an infinite number of times, whereas huggers rely on the Queen laying enough eggs, waiting for those eggs to mature, and xenos are limited to one in each hand (aside from Carrier of course). But it doesn't require resources to spam 'disarm'... Sure, you COULD add a plasma cost (only thing I can think of), but it'd need to be cheap because otherwise a xeno would run out of plasma before they've taken a marine to the Hive, and the marine has now escaped and/or killed the xeno attempting to capture it.

So.. With that in mind...

If we're going to go the stunlock route.. Add a small plasma cost to 'disarm', have it able to knock down a marine in a few hits and keep them knocked down for a reasonable amount of time, while still keeping the plasma cost cheap enough so that it can be relied upon when dragging a marine from Engineering/Nexus to the Hive. This will be difficult, because castes like Runners and Hunters have an insanely small amount of plasma, and they're the ones who'll be doing most of the host-escorting (Perhaps could be balanced by giving them a faster drag speed, to make up for their inability to keep hosts down for transfer?) But, if this can be done? It'd give the xenos an alternative to huggers, and while it COULD be used in combat, it wouldn't be able to be spammed endlessly due to the plasma cost, unless the xeno's plasma regen outpaces the cost and they're currently standing on weeds, in which case git gud and burn the weeds I guess.

[Surrealistik]

No need for a plasma limit; yes it would be infinite and unlimited, but it also requires constantly hitting the marine while dragging him around in order to stop him from recovering and getting away (keeping in mind that other Marines using the Aid intent on him will reduce the stun time), and it also requires several hits in melee range to get the stun off in the first place; quite a daunting task when you're up against a squad, and trying to get away from the same with your prize.

Also I agree that eggs should be layable anywhere.

[Steelpoint]

My suggestion is that being fully stunned via stamina attacks should stun a Marine for 20 or so seconds, outside of being shaken up by another Marine.

Also stamina damage only slowly wears off, so if a Marine does get up they'll still be moving slowly and thus more susceptible to a stun attack.

[Surrealistik]

Again, what you're proposing is essentially Halloss.

[Callabaddie]

Very clever. Haloss attacks with plasma cost. Essentially, Xeno stunbaton. I like it.

[Steelpoint]

I'm serious when I'm saying the prevalence of facehuggers is a massive turn off from this game.

Nothing's more frustrating to get facehuggered out of no where and then to die for the next two to three hours.

[Wbk]

Corrupt suggestion because of its nature. Its given by people frustrated by playing marine as a one-man-army. Groups of marines need not worry about being hugged. Lore wise, no marine should EVER fight alone because even an alien larva proved to be an exceptional foe by brute force alone.

Considering that this is a game and not the movie or the novel or whatever, its actually meant to look, feel and play differently. Its supposed to be "gamey". Add in a bit of byond and this pseudo turn-based flow and it all adds up.

Facehugger based combat is as frustrating to a marine as a mine is to an alien. From an alien point of view, a mine is something that disables them until they are out of the round. What are you going to do then? Take mines out of the game and implement an "infinite alien taser"?

Work on the lag instead so you can knife the facehugger before it hugs you.

[Surrealistik]

Corrupt suggestion because of its nature. Its given by people frustrated by playing marine as a one-man-army. Groups of marines need not worry about being hugged. Lore wise, no marine should EVER fight alone because even an alien larva proved to be an exceptional foe by brute force alone.

Considering that this is a game and not the movie or the novel or whatever, its actually meant to look, feel and play differently. Its supposed to be "gamey". Add in a bit of byond and this pseudo turn-based flow and it all adds up.

Facehugger based combat is as frustrating to a marine as a mine is to an alien. From an alien point of view, a mine is something that disables them until they are out of the round. What are you going to do then? Take mines out of the game and implement an "infinite alien taser"?

Work on the lag instead so you can knife the facehugger before it hugs you.

Groups of marines also don't have to worry as much about Halloss hits from Aliens on disable intent, and it's definitely more fun for both sides than a set and forget 3 minute instastun. Beyond that, replacement of throwable/placable facehuggers for all with Halloss would open buff space for most Alien castes as repeatedly mentioned in this thread.

Also mines vs facehuggers is a false equivalency given how much more spammable the latter is vis a vis the former, and to preempt you, I spend plenty of time running Hivelord on the alien side, so no, this isn't born of some kind of pro-Marine bias from a guy who plays that faction exclusively.

[AishaKitty]

I am pretty sure it's against the rules... but VERY often I'm slapped with a facehugger, then slashed to death, decapped, eaten or whatever. VERY OFTEN.

As well, it happens on occasion that while nested or huggered, I'm slashed into crit before even attempting or escape, or after escaping and without attacking... to me that seems quite... Lore-breaking and VERY meta; See thaat Cutting off someones leg to keep them from escaping, would also probably KILL THEM. and is PUTTING THEM ON THE EDGE OF DEATH.

[Boltersam]

I am pretty sure it's against the rules... but VERY often I'm slapped with a facehugger, then slashed to death, decapped, eaten or whatever. VERY OFTEN.

Not against the rules. It's a legit tactic.

[Steelpoint]

Comparing mines to facehuggers is dishonest at best and a false equivalency at worst.

The most memorable combat encoutners I've had, as both a Human and Alien, were in situations where no facehuggers were involved. Facehuggers are just a boring mechanic that get the job done.

This mechanic is fine in the base SS13 because Aliens are meant to be round enders, but for us the whole game mode is supported by Aliens. So the combat should be more engaging than who can slap the facehuggers on first.

[Monoo]

I think there can be one small balance change to the stun attacks, something that makes combat medics more useful.

Give them stimulants. Autoinjectors filled with chemicals that take away the stun damage. This would prevent stunlocked marines from getting fucked over and would keep medics busy aside from the occasional quick clot/trauma kit.

[Gamarr]

This mechanic is fine in the base SS13 because Aliens are meant to be round enders, but for us the whole game mode is supported by Aliens. So the combat should be more engaging than who can slap the facehuggers on first.

Good way of putting it. Facehuggers are binary, like most of xeno things. Binary effects in combat is shitty, especially when its relegated to only one side. But I also think the eggs should not be hive-bound by default, just that the huggers are not things that every xeno should be carting around. We have drone caste, make it handle moving eggs around, hiding, and other sneaky crap regarding hive maintenance.

About the 'the xenos will pull them, and keep stunlocking them' already happens when they don't have the hugger. The stamina addition would at least make them have to work to get the marine weak enough to knock down before dragging off, without the required tackle-spam.

This touches upon the weird mechanic of Pulling in the first place; as it is, you just are magically tugging someone along with zero effort/logic, both hands free to tackle/fire your rifle. Xenos should not be slow when pulling a body, but they should have to use a grab in order to do it, maybe? No...? Don't hit me.

[Wbk]

Also mines vs facehuggers is a false equivalency given how much more spammable the latter is vis a vis the former, and to preempt you, I spend plenty of time running Hivelord on the alien side, so no, this isn't born of some kind of pro-Marine bias from a guy who plays that faction exclusively.

Needless preempt since rather than ad hom, I would rather say you still cant answer properly to what huggers vs mines means. If an alien steps on a mine, it is CERTAINLY fucked. A hugged marine at least has the chance to flee and get surgery. If all of the arg you got is "Combat should be more engaging than binary fucked or not fucked" then you are doing it wrong, because as it is, there is plenty of binary out there without huggers even getting into the equation.

So Carriers can throw huggers and take you down? Good. Marines can throw grenades and take aliens down. So aliens can deploy hugger on the floor and get unsuspecting marine down? Good. Marines can get aliens down the same way. We saw many times the potential marine spamming breaking an entire alien horde in seconds.

Marines get plenty more options than aliens, but aliens have only one way to grow the hive and not only that, there are very specific conditions for facehugger combat to happen to begin with and in every case it happens, it was the marine's fault anyway.

Grouped marines never get to die for huggers like people describe it here. At worst, they are dragged back to safety. If they die while getting back to action that is marine fault. If they burst on the sulaco op table, that is marine fault. If their team mates are ordered to leave them to death, that is also marine fault.

Whenever there is some one-man-army marine dying, discussions like these arise. We supposedely will have marine buffs pending coming updates. You will see how already stupidly powerful they already are if they are really beefdup next without even nerfing aliens.

If what was said here still didnt make sense consider this... If you remove huggers out of hive you will make marines much stronger, marines will complain of "too easy ayylmao" and aliens will complain "marines OP". But if you only fix bugs and lag, everyone will get a better experience, because its something that fucks everyone not just a one-man-army marine.

[Steelpoint]

There is a difference, facehuggers are a renewable resource in near infinite supply. Mines are a very limited resource that cost precious resources to resupply. Marines have no real way to stun a Alien outside of a lucky grenade hit or a mine. Aliens have facehuggers and their own claws.

For a Human to defeat a Alien they have to fire enough bullets into it for it do die before it can retreat. For a Alien to defeat a Human it needs to get two facehuggers (or one) to land on the Human. Saying a group of Humans are unkillable to a few Aliens is the same as saying a group Aliens are unkillable to a few Humans.

Edit: Besides I'm not saying to remove facehuggers and call it a day. I'm more proposing that a new system is introduced to allow aliens to stun and capture Humans that don't rely on facehuggers, and this system could work as the underlying mechanics needed for it are already in the game (haloloss/stamina damage).

[Wbk]

There is a difference, facehuggers are a renewable resource in near infinite supply. Mines are a very limited resource that cost precious resources to resupply. Marines have no real way to stun a Alien outside of a lucky grenade hit or a mine. Aliens have facehuggers and their own claws.

For a Human to defeat a Alien they have to fire enough bullets into it for it do die before it can retreat. For a Alien to defeat a Human it needs to get two facehuggers (or one) to land on the Human. Saying a group of Humans are unkillable to a few Aliens is the same as saying a group Aliens are unkillable to a few Humans.

Edit: Besides I'm not saying to remove facehuggers and call it a day. I'm more proposing that a new system is introduced to allow aliens to stun and capture Humans that don't rely on facehuggers, and this system could work as the underlying mechanics needed for it are already in the game (haloloss/stamina damage).

1)Mines and Grenades are also infinite. Not an alien fault if Marines wont supply you with them. If they do, however you can carry much more explosive than an alien can carry huggers. A marine can carry over 40 explosives if they know how. If thats where you wanna go, I mean, on incompetence or on supply lines, very well. Aliens need an alien queen that is at least passable. 90% of the time, Carriers need to beg for eggs. Why marines arent asking for explosives?

And that note on aliens got claws, really? If we are going to really complain that aliens got their claws I am already getting out of this discussion.

2)For a human to defeat an alien they must fire enough bullets? Really? So for an alien to defeat a marine what it needs? Presence alone? If you just throw a hugger and wait you are doing it wrong. The marine would just go take the hugger off the face or find surgery. If he didnt do even that why is that alien OP? A big alien force is usually 20 strong or less. Consider now that CM has 100 players on at pretty much any given time. That gives some 80 USCM or a 5/1 Marine vs Alien proportion. A group of aliens are never theoretically unkillable, but a group of humans can get unkillable for its sheer numbers alone (aliens start with less numbers and need to kill marines to get more; the only way alien population may get higher than human population is if marines lose constantly to aliens and that is again marine fault). Now on that note, we do know that other factors come into place and that only holds true only so many times. One of those is, hint-hint, marine fault.

Marines dying and not getting cloned? Marine fault. Marines fresh from sleep coming and walking into death 2 minutes into the round? Marine fault. Server is hardly closed for new arrivals so they just keep on coming. Its really not the same thing. Aliens win with environmental cunning and planning and abusing marine fear. Marines can brute force their way anytime. If marines get to a point where aliens outnumber them, again, really... What the hell do you want?

Fix bugs, fix lag. New mechanics instead of changing old tested and tried ones.

[MrJJJ]

1)Mines and Grenades are also infinite. Not an alien fault if Marines wont supply you with them. If they do, however you can carry much more explosive than an alien can carry huggers. A marine can carry over 40 explosives if they know how. If thats where you wanna go, I mean, on incompetence or on supply lines, very well. Aliens need an alien queen that is at least passable. 90% of the time, Carriers need to beg for eggs. Why marines arent asking for explosives?

No, grenades and mines are NOT infinite, to get 50 cargo points requires patience, and even then you can find a amazing 2 frag and 1 incendinary in a crate with 3 mine boxes, but in a long run, despite that massive minefield you can make, a crusher can and probably will eventually destroy such.

[KingKire]

Yah, i dont know where people get the idea that explosives just come out of the air by the magic demo fairy. Each explosive crate can indeed carry up to 12 mines, but at 50 points, they are by no means cheap.

Cargo gets 2 points every 30 seconds. 4 points a minute. It takes 13 minutes to order 1 crate of 12 mines, 1 HE grenade, and 1 incendiary grenade. It takes another 2 minutes for it to arrive, 2 minutes on a shuttle to get to the ground, and however many minutes it takes in between those steps to get those mines deployed. Your looking at around 20 minutes on a good day to go from ordering the mines to setting them on the field. You also need to balance out these points with the needs of the rest of troopers: Medical crates (25 pts, good for about keeping 5 troopers alive from moderate wounds), plasteel(50pts for 6 barricades), and the almighty turret which people need( 120 points). You cant just order a constant stream of mines down to the ground. Whats worse is that mines are less effective the more of them that are set down. Once people know to look for mines, they start being a hassle instead of dangerous.

Now, im not quite sure about how much huggers cost for queens to lay down, but if they can do more than 24 every 15 minutes( 2 huggers to incapacitate a marine), they are already on a strong start to equaling the marines in deploy-able firepower.

We also really need to think about the " there's a HUNDRED MAHRINES, just shoot teh aliens!" answer. There is not, '100 marines" deployed on average. Lets go through the crew list:

► Show Spoiler

NON-combat personal:
-3 doctors
-1 CMO
-1 researcher
-1 Corporate liason
-3 maintaince technicians
-1 Cheif engineer
-1 cargo tech
-1 Requistion officer
-3 bridge officers
-1 Commanding officer
-1 Executive officer
-4 military police
that gives us 21 non-combat personal slots that are usually filled to about 80% capacity.

Combat personal:
-4 squad leaders
-8 engineers
-8 medical techs
-8 specialists
-unknown amount of standard marines.

Survivors:
-3 survivors

Aliens:
-10-12 round start.

Now during round start, from what i've seen, theres usually about 8ish troops on average per squad.
This gives us about 32 Combat capable troopers, out of those, 10 or so are medical or engineering, leaving us with about 22 "Front-line" able troops. Now, over the course of the round, more and more marines come become un-cryo'd but this is usually equal to or less than the marines being incapacitated over the round.

THIS IS A FAR CRY from 80 or so combat marines that is being quoted! The proper ratio of aliens-to-marines would more likely resemble 1-3 or 1-2 ratios. Out of those, we need to remember that its also not an equal fight. There isnt a big battle of 32 marines vs. 12 aliens, its usually 1 or two squads of marines ( about 8-16 troops) vs. aliens. During the begining, its usually even smaller as individual marines are picked off 1 by 1, creating 1-1 ratios or 2 or 3 to 1 ratios in favor of aliens.

[Jeser]

► Show Spoiler

Needless preempt since rather than ad hom, I would rather say you still cant answer properly to what huggers vs mines means. If an alien steps on a mine, it is CERTAINLY fucked. A hugged marine at least has the chance to flee and get surgery. If all of the arg you got is "Combat should be more engaging than binary fucked or not fucked" then you are doing it wrong, because as it is, there is plenty of binary out there without huggers even getting into the equation.

So Carriers can throw huggers and take you down? Good. Marines can throw grenades and take aliens down. So aliens can deploy hugger on the floor and get unsuspecting marine down? Good. Marines can get aliens down the same way. We saw many times the potential marine spamming breaking an entire alien horde in seconds.

Marines get plenty more options than aliens, but aliens have only one way to grow the hive and not only that, there are very specific conditions for facehugger combat to happen to begin with and in every case it happens, it was the marine's fault anyway.

Grouped marines never get to die for huggers like people describe it here. At worst, they are dragged back to safety. If they die while getting back to action that is marine fault. If they burst on the sulaco op table, that is marine fault. If their team mates are ordered to leave them to death, that is also marine fault.

Whenever there is some one-man-army marine dying, discussions like these arise. We supposedely will have marine buffs pending coming updates. You will see how already stupidly powerful they already are if they are really beefdup next without even nerfing aliens.

If what was said here still didnt make sense consider this... If you remove huggers out of hive you will make marines much stronger, marines will complain of "too easy ayylmao" and aliens will complain "marines OP". But if you only fix bugs and lag, everyone will get a better experience, because its something that fucks everyone not just a one-man-army marine.

I read this and I even became a bit mad of this shit.

If an alien steps on a mine, it is CERTAINLY fucked.

False, in my experience, if out of big fight, 4 out of 5 aliens are fucked. In a big fight, 2-3 are fucked, because other aliens are near and often save alien who stepped on a mine. Also, if alien got mined, while being on weeds and there are no marines near it, it will just walk off after small period of time.

A hugged marine at least has the chance to flee and get surgery.

HUGGED marine DON'T have such chances, if only another marine help. Or alien being totally retarded. Marines are knocked out for pretty long time, another alien can easily find them in that and prevent from escaping to Sulaco.

Marines can throw grenades and take aliens down.

Yeah, big flashing red icon with loud sound which devs decided to leave despite me asking to remove that flashing for aliens, because "It will be too unfair for aliens". By the way, huggers don't have flashing red icon. Also, grenades are pretty limited, and have big delay before blowing up.

So aliens can deploy hugger on the floor and get unsuspecting marine down? Good. Marines can get aliens down the same way.

Every squad gets one mine box with 4 mines. Crate with 3 more boxes and grenades costs 40-50 points and need to be delivered, which is not always possible. QUeen can shit out eggs like a chicken with diarrhea.

We saw many times the potential marine spamming breaking an entire alien horde in seconds.

I really hope to see at least ones, how horde of Ravagers, Praetoreans and Crushers will be stopped in seconds, thanks to mines. I really hope to see that.

Marines get plenty more options than aliens, but aliens have only one way to grow the hive and not only that, there are very specific conditions for facehugger combat to happen to begin with and in every case it happens, it was the marine's fault anyway.

In return, marines often can't return in round as marines, only as aliens. Aliens can return many times. There is plenty of wildlife in the beginning of round, you can easily get up to 20 new aliens, if runners are doing their job. Very specific condtions for huggers, what? It's just throw/click with hugger ALL THE TIME. Maybe spit beforehand. Or Screech/stomp. Yep, runner appearing out of nowhere and attaching you two huggers in two seconds is definitely marine's fault. What kind of logic is that? It's not a fault, it's just incompatibility to do something.

Grouped marines never get to die for huggers like people describe it here. At worst, they are dragged back to safety.

You don't play as marine at all, it seems. Grouped marines has pretty many ways to be hug-decapped or hugged all at once. Queens screech, for example.

Whenever there is some one-man-army marine dying, discussions like these arise.

Total lies, won't even comment this.

You will see how already stupidly powerful they already are if they are really beefdup next without even nerfing aliens.

Go ask winrate.

If what was said here still didnt make sense consider this... If you remove huggers out of hive you will make marines much stronger, marines will complain of "too easy ayylmao" and aliens will complain "marines OP". But if you only fix bugs and lag, everyone will get a better experience, because its something that fucks everyone not just a one-man-army marine.

Lags and bugs are technical problem. We have enough gameplay problems. And stun-based tactic of aliens is one of them. If it will be changed, it would be much more interesting to play for everyone.

...

THIS IS A FAR CRY from 80 or so combat marines that is being quoted! The proper ratio of aliens-to-marines would more likely resemble 1-3 or 1-2 ratios. Out of those, we need to remember that its also not an equal fight. There isnt a big battle of 32 marines vs. 12 aliens, its usually 1 or two squads of marines ( about 8-16 troops) vs. aliens. During the begining, its usually even smaller as individual marines are picked off 1 by 1, creating 1-1 ratios or 2 or 3 to 1 ratios in favor of aliens.

Now add to this, that from those 32 marines about quarter are baldies/noobies, that never played CM at all, half are very average players, quarter are really good ones, which aliens should really fear.

And NOW add to this FF, which kills pretty many marines. Aliens have only one analog of FF - pushing in line of fire. Even boiler acid doesn't hurt them. I can bet, that ratio of dead from FF is 1:4 between aliens:marines.