[Heavily Moderated] Armor balance patch issues with damage for both sides

[NethIafins]

This thread is here to collect all issues that community thinks still left with weapons. What feels weak, on what objects of what side of conflict.

We are aiming at game being fun and weapons (including xeno claws) feeling balanced AND good (punchy, satifying, pick a word). Same with armor.

Current values are working good on paper but sometimes feel wrong in actual gameplay cases.

HERE'S WHAT YOU CAN DO:
Format your post exactly like this
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Weapon/Armor that feels wrong
It feels wrong because: ... it doesn't kill runners fast ... it is useless against X as armor ... I die as praetorian too fast to this
It would be nice to have it: ... buff it ... nerf it ... increase penetration ... increase armor break

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You can have multiple blocks like this, but let's not make more than 5 per post.
You may also include issues you agree with by quoting other people's posts but if you already see the post being quoted too many times, you shouldn't do it.

Do not post that you DISAGREE with someones solution, either propose your own or don't write anything. This topic needs to be readable for us.

If you don't stick to the format, your post will be deleted.

Thanks

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

Prae/Crusher/Warrior/Defender Armor
It feels wrong because: Prae/Crusher/Warrior/Defender are way too tanky now, and your chance of killing them even after somehow breaking their armor is still 0 if they aren't dumb. Yet on the other side of the spectrum, Lurker was dying from 1 M41 burst even before the damage buff on M41 normal ammo due to the lack of shield.
It would be nice to have: Prae/Crusher/Warrior/Defender should have some of their health taken away. The fact that the only thing that can ever kill a semi-tanky xeno right now is CAS/Tank/SADAR, and having those counterplays focused in a handful of people isn't fun for most people that don't have access to these tools.

Rav/Queen/Carrier speed
It feels wrong because: Rav/Queen/Carrier got a speed buff, when their only limiting factor was their speed. Rav now gets to Lurker speed at Ancient, starting with Prae speed at young. This makes Spin Slash (a straight upgrade btw) almost risk-free; while still carrying a very oppressive amount of damage that IGNORES armor. {Neth: spin slash fixed already}
It would be nice to have: Just revert the speed buff on castes, but keep the speed nerf on other.

Armor Integrity too big for Xeno
It feels wrong because: breaking shields gets harder and harder.
It would be nice to have it: nerf the active Armor Integrity value

[DatBerry]

M39
It feels wrong because:
Single fire rate is worse than an M44 and rivals that of the pump shotgun, making it utterly trash.
Burst has the spread of buckshot even with a reflex sight on (in numbers, at 3 tiles you will reliably only hit one bullet out of 3 on target, i rarely if ever got 2 hits and never 3 hits, mind you 3 tiles is pretty close)

It would be nice to have it: buff single fire back to original rate, reduce burst spread to a reasonable level

[Teruyo]

Sniper spec
It feels wrong because: Sniper spec was suppost to be guarding angel for marine against anything which can make harm against them in long range, or softing up the enemies from long range. Currently sniper spec is the worst spec, aviable at the time. He absoultly dont have damage, he's function can be easly countered just by Defender standing in front of Boiler or chess like maze of walls and even then boiler can just tank he's harass, and other xenos just ignore it (Becuse of low damage, or just by speed making them impossible to hit). Also Boiler can kill Sniper easy, just by outrange him, or just spitting on him if they got railgun strain.
It would be nice to have: Increase he's damage, allowing him to shoot through Xenos (So he would be able to actually harass the boilers).



{Neth: Out of scope}

[nekcy]

Marine Armor
It feels wrong because: A few slashes just crit you to death or one FF just fucks your shit up, the current armor feels alright but I thought It could be spiced up a bit.

It would be nice to have it: Better armor but it breaks after a certain treshold, could be either fixable or need to call for REQ supply drop. Balancing making it no armor/broken marine squishier. Could fiddle with acid damaging more or less than melee too.

M39
It feels wrong because:
Single fire rate is worse than an M44 and rivals that of the pump shotgun, making it utterly trash.
Burst has the spread of buckshot even with a reflex sight on (in numbers, at 3 tiles you will reliably only hit one bullet out of 3 on target, i rarely if ever got 2 hits and never 3 hits, mind you 3 tiles is pretty close)

It would be nice to have it: buff single fire back to original rate, reduce burst spread to a reasonable level

[CABAL]

Rav Damage (Armor Piercing) and that beno itself
It feels wrong because: Heavy armor is just straight up useless against this caste. Rav already is immune to fire (expanded in "case" below), fast and heavy armor doesn't mean shit against even mature Ravs. At 100% health you can reliably die from two slashes, one slash and your bones break like matches. No beno should be able to break a bone of a marine with 100% health and heavy armor with one slash, otherwise there is no point in wearing one. Rav is the second most broken beno after boiler right now. Just like boiler, he has no counters besides SADAR, his "strain" is just straight up upgrade and now he don't even have to aim his slashes with that brainless aiming assist. He has enough HP pool to survive multiple flechette PB's, he can take those needles like a heavy drug addict. Rav is simply Jack of All trades, but instead of being OK in every situation, he is Perfect in nearly every situation.
In short: Rav doesn't have to be carefull, he only needs to consider retreat from SADAR spec. It's gameplay is brainless because:
a) Speed b) Immunity to fire c) HP and armor too high for a caste originating from Runner d) Strain that is a direct upgrade e) Too much damage/Too much Armour Piercing

Armor and claws.
It would be nice to have: In addition to nerfing Brainless Rav gameplay there could be added special abilities encouraging more tactic and thinking for all benos.
What I mean by that: "Claw Stance". Simillar to Warrior/Defender Crest stance it would be something that beno has to toggle. Deflaut "Slash" would be accurate and fast (the same as normal slashing we have now), but easly deflected by armor. Secondary "Pierce" would be less accurate, slower, but it would be much easier to penetrate armor, but easly dodged. Dodge chance would be determined by victim max speed.
Thanks to that both heavy and light armor would become viable for different reasons, where benos would have to pick their targets instead of blindly slashing while aiming at head (because no matter the PFC, their helmet always have the same medium armor). Speaking of aiming at head: Introduce Heavy and Light helmets. Light having more storage space, while heavy would lose all for added protection (or even something like reducing vision range from behind).

{Neth: maybe related but this won't be resolved or addressed in armor rework}

{Neth: this won't be resolved or addressed in armor rework, also way out of scope of time}

[kooarbiter]

Rav Damage (Armor Piercing) and that beno itself
It feels wrong because: Heavy armor is just straight up useless against this caste. Rav already is immune to fire (expanded in "case" below), fast and heavy armor doesn't mean shit against even mature Ravs. At 100% health you can reliably die from two slashes, one slash and your bones break like matches. No beno should be able to break a bone of a marine with 100% health and heavy armor with one slash, otherwise there is no point in wearing one. Rav is the second most broken beno after boiler right now. Just like boiler, he has no counters besides SADAR, his "strain" is just straight up upgrade and now he don't even have to aim his slashes with that brainless aiming assist. He has enough HP pool to survive multiple flechette PB's, he can take those needles like a heavy drug addict. Rav is simply Jack of All trades, but instead of being OK in every situation, he is Perfect in nearly every situation.
In short: Rav doesn't have to be carefull, he only needs to consider retreat from SADAR spec. It's gameplay is brainless because:
a) Speed b) Immunity to fire c) HP and armor too high for a caste originating from Runner d) Strain that is a direct upgrade e) Too much damage/Too much Armour Piercing

Armor and claws.
It would be nice to have: In addition to nerfing Brainless Rav gameplay there could be added special abilities encouraging more tactic and thinking for all benos.
What I mean by that: "Claw Stance". Simillar to Warrior/Defender Crest stance it would be something that beno has to toggle. Deflaut "Slash" would be accurate and fast (the same as normal slashing we have now), but easly deflected by armor. Secondary "Pierce" would be less accurate, slower, but it would be much easier to penetrate armor, but easly dodged. Dodge chance would be determined by victim max speed.
Thanks to that both heavy and light armor would become viable for different reasons, where benos would have to pick their targets instead of blindly slashing while aiming at head (because no matter the PFC, their helmet always have the same medium armor). Speaking of aiming at head: Introduce Heavy and Light helmets. Light having more storage space, while heavy would lose all for added protection (or even something like reducing vision range from behind).

{Neth: maybe related but this won't be resolved or addressed in armor rework}

{Neth: this won't be resolved or addressed in armor rework, also way out of scope of time}

more or less this, just adding words to fill post requirement

[MasterShakeEZ]

Anything fire based WP/Incin ammo/flamers
It feels wrong because: You made warding not good so now recovery is the meta and recovery super counters anything fire based. This is multiplied 10 fold by any kind of incendiary ammo because now the shields block the bullet damage so the minor fire damage it does do does basically nothing. WP had a bug fixed and I was direct hitting crushers with rockets BEFORE the armor change and they were living. Now with recovery they are basically immune to WP.
It would be nice to have it: Do damage

[Chaznoodles]

Squad-based Req
It feels wrong because:Now SLs have yet another job they need to do. Req only had two jobs - attachments and ordering stuff. SLs had to fight, keep track of chat, keep their squad in order and communicate nonstop, now another duty has been added onto it. Not to mention that SLs now regularly miss first drop because they need to outfit their marines, meaning zero coordination.
It would be nice to have it: Reverted. Req was fine as it was, just add another window and another CT role.


Xenos armour
It feels wrong because: It's another health pool at this point. One of the major issues that was part of the reason mutators went away is because certain ones gave xenos ridiculous survivability - this feels exactly the same.
It would be nice to have it: Just be a % damage decrease instead of adding yet more health.

Rav damage
It feels wrong because: Holy shit lmao it does 10% of the tank's modules with each slash at mature, as well as 2shotting heavy armour marines.
It would be nice to have it: Removed. That damage increase is dumb.

[NethIafins]

Armor Integrity too big for Xeno

Fixed

M39

Fixed

Sniper spec

You did not play new state of sniper spec, kinda fixed
EDIT: OOOPS... it didn't, well it is fixed now I hope

Marine Armor

Thanks I guess. Won't do marine armor breaking.

Rav Damage (Armor Piercing) and that beno itself

Rav damage reduced, spinslash is no longer AP. Other stuff related to this is out of scope

Armor and claws.

Won't do, out of the scope

Anything fire based WP/Incin ammo/flamers

Fixed, recovery no longer works when on fire

Squad-based Req

Squad based req stays, but maybe we will make it less pressing on SL

Xenos armour

This is not how armor works. Armor is exactly % based reduction to damage.

Rav damage

Fixed, damage reduced