Rule clarification: facehugger decapping

[Fuppy]

After doing just a quick once over of the ruleset you'll see there's no defining statements in regards to what is and is not acceptable when talking about infected marines (void nested slashing/unesting to slash). So where do we draw the line when talking about out in the open, facehugged (infected or not) marines? Does this fall under the queen obedience rule? What if the queen has no preference to capturing and slashing is permitted? Do you take larva count into consideration to see if it was justified? Does it even have to be justified beyond something loose such as "I was in danger", or "capture was not guaranteed"? While this probably sounds like a non-issue given the current rules and hopeful wishing for a new combat system, hugger combat is staple to CM right now whether you like it (heh) or not and it should be given more attention, especially if it's going to be here for awhile.

Since this isn't a staff complaint I won't drag anyone into this, and if the involved moderator(?)/players wants to personally chime in they can of their own accord, however I was on the target end of an ahelp because of hugged marine killing and the way the moderator's PM was worded it sounded nearly job ban worthy. For context: the marine had been caught by me and a spitter and was in the process of being killed WHILE being dragged away from the south-western mini-fob roughly twenty-five, thirty tiles away. His capture, survival, or even our survival weren't 100% guaranteed had we attempted to drag him back to the ladders and use him as a host instead of focusing solely on dwindling the marine's numbers and avoiding getting stuck in a situation where we would have to leave behind a potentially savable, pain crit marine because we couldn't drag him fast enough.

I'll admit decapping him while he was knocked out from being hugged is a cunty move when there wasn't any immediate danger, though it's a well practiced cunty move. I and along every single combat caste player regularly do it (if you want to dispute this just observe any hunter player for even half a round). If this and things like this are going to become ahelp worthy then it NEEDS to be much more set in stone into the ruleset rather than be left to staff intuition and interpenetration. Again, this isn't a report and I didn't make this thread to start shit. If I was in the wrong here and the staff member was in the right then that's okay, he's only doing his job. However, I don't know IF I was in the wrong and that's what is grinding my gears. Something that sets so much of CM's foundation truly needs to be more well defined in the rules than vague implications. For reference I wasn't banned over this, but it did worry me a lot.

Apologies for this being hard on the eyes. I'm still not used to formatting for forums again.

[LordeKilly]

Facehugger decap is running up to a marine or two, tossing a facehugger on them for a stun, and then jumping on them and decapping.

It's a VERY overpowered mechanic. Basically had like, 2 carriers walking around and just getting droves of kills from just doing that.

[Fuppy]

Yeah, my situation was something very similar. Had we not dragged the marine out of the path and killed him on the spot chances are it would've been overlooked as run of the mill facehugger decap... Which brings me back to my original topic, what is considered crossing the line when you kill a facehuggered marine?

[Biolock]

We need more players to do what you're doing. I've always been a firm believer that the infected marine rule starts at facehugging (though most staff believe it starts after impregnations). If he's a threat, either by slowing your drag to the nest leaving you dangerously exposed, or actively fighting you, you can kill him. Otherwise, it shouldn't be allowed.

[Mordrehel]

Not sure if its my place at this moment to really be adding in my opinions but- There aren't any specific (stated) rules to killing infected marines aside from the nested case and what the queen has ordered in round. So really a lot of this goes to the interpretation of the acting staff member.
Namely these questions:
1. Is the player griefing?
2. Has the player ignored the queens orders?
3. Is the player powergaming?

So realistically, unless you're unnecessarily killing an infected marine (griefing case), killing marines the queen told you not to (case 2), or purposefully using the facehugger as a stun mechanic to more efficiently kill the marine (powergamining case) you should be fine. This is simply based upon my interpretation of rules from being a member of staff on several servers and does not currently represent the CM staff's opinion, however, it'd be very hard for anyone to argue that you're breaking the rules unless you meet one of the three above conditions.

[Casany]

The only time I accept hugger decapping is when it's the sulaco assualt or it's impossible to get the host to the hive without dying.

[Renomaki]

We can all agree that hugger combat is quite unfair in that it deludes players into thinking they have skill as an alien, when really the only reason one is getting kills is because they are abusing the fact that you can kill a marine with a hugger on his face during his stuntime.

Last night, during my first time as ravager (as well as some time as a runner the next round), I decided to try and fight without huggers, instead using my abilities presented to me to do damage and weaken marines mentally and physically. The result is that I ended up playing and thinking completely differently, darting in and out and trying to chew/claw off limbs vital to marine survival instead of just grabbing a hugger and aiming for the head for an easy kill. It made things more rewarding when I heard that sweet crunching of bones, or to see their limbs fall right off after a good nibbling.

Afterwards, hugger combat seemed a whole lot less satisfying and more frustrating, because of how brainless yet difficult it can be at times. You just run in, drop a hugger and hope it connects, or jump some guy and try to slap two huggers on him before getting around to slashing him, when you could have chewed his foot off in the time it took for you to go through all that trouble to get an easy kill. In a way, it makes combat more thrilling for both the xeno AND the marine, rather than just being a source of salt because you took the easy way out and hugslashed.

[Fuppy]

Well, I think these replies prove my point. Everyone here is more or less on the same page as far as hugger killing goes and how it's shit, though there's still a few minor differences in your opinions on it. Like I said I don't advocate for hugger combat because it IS overpowered and probably the biggest salt generator next to maybe feet slashing and predators, but so long as the rules don't outright limit it then I feel ahelps are unjustified.

This is obviously only my opinion and I have no idea how good of an addition it'd be in reality but adding in a couple rules specific to hugger combat/using huggers to get a kill would more than likely trim out a lot of the salt. Most players I've seen complaining are the ones who got a hugger on their noggin' and then instantly two hit decapped by an elite hunter whereas the ones who got hugged and then dragged to the nest are usually not nearly as upset.

[Heckenshutze]

Hugger combat is cancer. In all of its forms.

I never use huggers as Xeno. Not because I'm trying to be robust but because I see it dull, boring and sometimes hard as F..

[Fuppy]

I'd still like to get an official word from the staff on its legitimacy though. It's a system no one enjoys for obvious reasons (dull alien combat, marine salt).

Anyways, my OP's topic wasn't purely about bashing the current combat system. I want to know if facehugger combat has any behind the scenes rules that should be addressed, and if not, if there should be rules made for it. If ahelps from marine players who died to the facehugger+decap combo are going to be acted upon by moderators then the aliens need to know what is/isn't allowed beyond loose implications like " Remember: The more hosts you get and keep alive, the bigger your team." (this is also solely talking about nested hosts, so...).

[apophis775]

There are NO specific rules on "killing infected or Hugged enemies" right now. This might be something we should look at in the near future.

However, at the moment, "Hugger Decapping" does nothing except hurts the aliens long-term. Once someone is infected, they could on the side of "Xeno victory". It can be VERY beneficial for you to infect someone who runs back to get surgery opposed to killing them outright.

I suppose a temporary counter to this, could be that if you kill someone and they have a hugger on them, the hugger dies. Maybe not a big issue when fighting in the nest, but definitly an issue when fighting on front lines or during invasions.

HOWEVER, there is a question of Marines "abusing" the fact that they are infected and can run past huggers/eggs. We are addressing that problem and hoping to find a solution soon.

[Heckenshutze]

I'd still like to get an official word from the staff on its legitimacy though. It's a system no one enjoys for obvious reasons (dull alien combat, marine salt).

Anyways, my OP's topic wasn't purely about bashing the current combat system. I want to know if facehugger combat has any behind the scenes rules that should be addressed, and if not, if there should be rules made for it. If ahelps from marine players who died to the facehugger+decap combo are going to be acted upon by moderators then the aliens need to know what is/isn't allowed beyond loose implications like " Remember: The more hosts you get and keep alive, the bigger your team." (this is also solely talking about nested hosts, so...).

They'll tell you Hugger Combat is getting removed. Expect a massive update soon. (perhaps for X-mas eve)

[Fuppy]

Thanks for the in depth response, Apophis. It cleared up pretty much everything else I wanted an answer to.

[Recounted]

hugger combat needs to be reworked completely. Carriers who just waste them to decap marines does it just gain their salt (cough 352 im looking at you) is causing the hive to wait for the queen to spew out more and wait for those to be ready to be thrown on marines. Pretty much just hurting the hive more than helping.

[Crab_Spider]

HOWEVER, there is a question of Marines "abusing" the fact that they are infected and can run past huggers/eggs. We are addressing that problem and hoping to find a solution soon.

Can we keep this? I mean it's a problem that lends itself an easy fix as one stun is enough to fuck you over and keep you out. Infection takes full effect in 20 minutes for unnested, and in this game, 20 minutes flies by fast when in battle. Marines don't gain much from being infected except they're immune to hugger stuns.

[Nubs]

Maybe if you're infected and running around/fighting it makes the larvae pop sooner?

[Crab_Spider]

Maybe if you're infected and running around/fighting it makes the larvae pop sooner?

It shouldn't. The pheromones in the nest increasing incubation rate due to how there's even more plasma it's giving off. When you get infected (it turns out I was wrong), it takes 10-15 minutes before you burst. Fighting for that long will get you killed, and if you're deep in those caves you might as well just shoot yourself/

[apophis775]

Can we keep this? I mean it's a problem that lends itself an easy fix as one stun is enough to fuck you over and keep you out. Infection takes full effect in 20 minutes for unnested, and in this game, 20 minutes flies by fast when in battle. Marines don't gain much from being infected except they're immune to hugger stuns.

Infection to burst, should only be around 6-8 minutes.

2 Minutes for the "infection"
Then, 4 cycles of ~80 seconds.

Meaning it should be around 5-6 minutes for burst from infection.

[LocalizedDownpour]

I would say don't allow slashing as long as the hugger is alive. Once it screeches and die then you can slash this would stop the biggest issue with hugger combat.

[LocalizedDownpour]

Also make the sub about twice as long. It also promises a nesting, unless the Marine is with a group, and his buddies fight off the attacker.

As opposed to a elite hunter hugging someone and dodging or soaking some shots while he rips and tears someone's face. This was never done lore wise as one you got hugged, to steal a phrase... Game over man, game over.

[MrJJJ]

This is just gonna happen over and over until dev team finally fixes it, i am not sure why this keeps popping up over and over.