Discussion On Command-Civilian/Medical Interaction

[Steelpoint]

I participated in a round as a Researcher, where our medbay consisted of me and one Doctor. In this round, before the other Doctor joined, I gave two Squad Medics one bottle each of Peri Pills. Afterwards the Commander (Jack Knight) warned me to not give away drugs to anyone, which I begrudgingly agreed to. Shortly after, the newly arrived Doctor began to pump out PeriDex pills, and I placed fifteen Medical HUDs around the lower hanger ladder for the Marines to take.

After this the Commander ordered the Military Police to confiscate all the huds, and to arrest me and the Doctor. I should note that I was not given any warning on this, he simply yelled how he disagreed with the medical huds being placed, before I was promptly arrested.

Eventually me and the Doctor were given twenty minute sentences. Which eventually resulted in multiple Marines having to wait for surgical treatment, and other Marines getting delayed treatment for larva removal which resulted in them dying in surgery.

Eventually some of the Combat Medics were arrested for a reason I could not figure out due to me being in the brig.

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The above story is for context.

The main issue I'm asking is to discuss one main point.

I feel right now that if a Commander wants to be a "hard ass" they can punish medical personal for distributing even the most common of medical aids to qualified Combat Medics with sentences ranging from 15 to 30 minutes. I disagree with the idea that MPs and CO's even have the option to overwhelmingly punish Doctors and Researchers for extremely minor issues.

While technically distributing drugs is against Marine law, but I have to wonder why its against the law for Doctors to issue MEDICAL drugs to qualified Combat Medics. Or why distributing extremely cheap HUDs is worthy of a extra five minutes in the brig.

This feels very un-fun, the round in question was massively disrupted due to these events. The research department was abandoned and medical aid was extremely limited due to all medical personal being in jail. Its a massive commitment to play a role like a Doctor or Researcher where you spend most of your time idle, instead of picking a more action oriented role like Standard, so I would like better assurances that a Commander can't one shot brig all of Medbay off the cuff.

[NoahKirchner]

Just don't be a little shit so you can arrest people as MP. That is all.

[MrJJJ]

I seen a few mods/admins try to point out in dchat how it made for a "interesting round"

I would like to kind of call bull on that, peri is very, very important, i once got shot and only my organs were damaged, i had to get peri to survive, otherwise, a doctor would have to sit with me through my entire trip just to make sure i won't suffocate.

Its very NOT uncommon for a marine to get damaged organs, not allowing medics to have that fucks the marines bad, VERY, it means more paincritted people, more deaths, and more morale lose, this is the very reason why this thing exist, marines are able to keep fighting on ground until they are infected or are too broken to keep fighting (to the point they become splint man), which is when they retreat, internal organs dying out made this alot more common.

Seriously, i know that some people like to follow marine law to the letter, but how the hell is handing out a thing that saves life, and is in the vendors, considered "unauthorized drug".

[Crab_Spider]

I seen a few mods/admins try to point out in dchat how it made for a "interesting round"

I would like to kind of call bull on that, peri is very, very important, i once got shot and only my organs were damaged, i had to get peri to survive, otherwise, a doctor would have to sit with me through my entire trip just to make sure i won't suffocate.

Its very NOT uncommon for a marine to get damaged organs, not allowing medics to have that fucks the marines bad, VERY, it means more paincritted people, more deaths, and more morale lose, this is the very reason why this thing exist, marines are able to keep fighting on ground until they are infected or are too broken to keep fighting (to the point they become splint man), which is when they retreat, internal organs dying out made this alot more common.

Seriously, i know that some people like to follow marine law to the letter, but how the hell is handing out a thing that saves life, and is in the vendors, considered "unauthorized drug".

It's not in MarineMed venders and therefore it's illegal to distribute, just like giving oxycodene is illegal to distribute.

[Steelpoint]

The main issue I have is that was the first round I've ever seen a Commander come down so hard on Medbay for giving Medics Peri.

Hell, the guide on this games WIKI tells you to go to Medbay and ask for Peri from the doctors!

Its just absurd.

It's not in MarineMed venders and therefore it's illegal to distribute, just like giving oxycodene is illegal to distribute.

@Crab_Spider You do know that the Medic Belt Bags come with oxycodene?

[MrJJJ]

It's not in MarineMed venders and therefore it's illegal to distribute, just like giving oxycodene is illegal to distribute.

Its in WeylandMed Plus vendors, which are in medbay and in colony, how is that illegal to distribute? oxycodone because its addictive and can result in dangerous effect, but its still in there for EXTREME pain, authorized by doctors only, but never distributed for good reasons, peridaxon however, is legal, and there is nowhere it says its illegal, its not even addictive for christ.

[Steelpoint]

I also don't understand this weird concept that if your role does not have immediate access to a item that its now illegal for them to have it. I don't see a rule saying that Medics can't possess Peri or Oxycodene.

The only rule is a Marine Law which makes it illegal to distribute drugs. Which I think the spirit of that law is to not give away Space Drugs to the CL, not to stop Doctors giving Medics PeriDex or a KeloDerm or something.

[TehSpoderman]

The main issue I have is that was the first round I've ever seen a Commander come down so hard on Medbay for giving Medics Peri.

Hell, the guide on this games WIKI tells you to go to Medbay and ask for Peri from the doctors!

Its just absurd.



@Crab_Spider You do know that the Medic Belt Bags come with oxycodene?

Command cucked Medical and mods and admins let them do it. I dont think letting people die because they didnt get the appropriate medicine because Command didnt let Medical distribute them makes for an interesting round.

[NoahKirchner]

Command cucked Medical and mods and admins let them do it. I dont think letting people die because they didnt get the appropriate medicine because Command didnt let Medical distribute them makes for an interesting round.

An admin was the commander in that round.

[Swagile]

The Commander, Jack Knight, is a shitter who uses any reason within Marine Law to cuck people and his excuse is "its the law" whenever he griefs people.

The spirit of the law is handing it out to random standards, not people who are actually qualified to use it (Combat Medics) but Jack Knight is the type of shitter who actually thinks that brigging Combat Medics who ask for extra pills is "A-OK".

Its a separate issue because it only happens when Jack Knight pulls this shit off; most other MP's don't do this or haven't gotten to that level of being a dick yet. Plus it helps that Jack Knight is CJ, an admin, so I don't think the mods wanted to handle it so they let CJ hide behind the "ITS THE LAW" excuse.

Just a last remark, due to CJ's law lawyering when it comes to Marine Law, im suggesting a rule change to Marine Law as well to prevent people like him from going MP here: http://cm-ss13.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=12227

[TehSpoderman]

An admin was the commander in that round.

well that explains alot. admins practically rule the server so they could do anything with no repercussion. really fucking sucks

[Kavrick]

You guys are complaining that the CO is actually doing his job and partaking in HRP, are you serious?

[NoahKirchner]

You guys are complaining that the CO is actually doing his job and partaking in HRP, are you serious?

Yes, when the server is
Listed as medium RP
Poorly defined in terms of rules and roleplay guidelines
Not at all designed to ever be high RP.

[Kavrick]

Yes, when the server is
Listed as medium RP
Poorly defined in terms of rules and roleplay guidelines
Not at all designed to ever be high RP.

it's not required to partake in HRP, but it's encouraged

[NoahKirchner]

it's not required to partake in HRP, but it's encouraged

The game is, functionally, low RP at the moment. If everyone starts treating the game as high RP, you would see consistent mutinies round after round. The rules, the roleplay guidelines, and marine law all do not support a HRP playstyle. You end up grasping for straws at subsections in clauses to be able to cover everything. HRP =/= following everything you're supposed to do to a T, HRP is acting like and roleplaying a believable character, with emotions, a backstory and ambitions for the future, not doing everything perfectly.

[MrJJJ]

You guys are complaining that the CO is actually doing his job and partaking in HRP, are you serious?

>HRP
>Medium-RP server

Aside from that, the CO basically didin't allow to let medics to save lifes for some reason, which isin't HRP, but is basically being kind of a dick, any CO who knows his men will do better in battle and will have to spend less time screaming about their injuries or sitting in comas in years would allow distribution of peri to doctors, which isin't even illegal.

Need i REMIND THAT THE LAW WAS LITTERALY PLACED SPECIFICALLY FOR COMBAT DRUGS? you know, because people like SUR abused that and made marines nearly highly invincible?

[Kavrick]

The game is, functionally, low RP at the moment. If everyone starts treating the game as high RP, you would see consistent mutinies round after round. The rules, the roleplay guidelines, and marine law all do not support a HRP playstyle. You end up grasping for straws at subsections in clauses to be able to cover everything. HRP =/= following everything you're supposed to do to a T, HRP is acting like and roleplaying a believable character, with emotions, a backstory and ambitions for the future, not doing everything perfectly.

Did you even read what i said?

[NoahKirchner]

Did you even read what i said?

Yes, and my response was that HRP is not plausible, and that this is not HRP.

[Kavrick]

Yes, and my response was that HRP is not plausible, and that this is not HRP.

Are you actually saying that it's impossible to do hrp?

[NoahKirchner]

Are you actually saying that it's impossible to do hrp?

No, not at all. Bay is HRP, Aurora is HRP. Their fundamental differences to CM's way of handling RP?
Very well defined, well thought out and well written roleplay guidelines and laws to follow.
A lower, easier to keep track of playerbase.
Lack of a competitive nature.
A complete, well written and agreed upon lore.
Frequent admin intervention in rounds to encourage roleplay, faxes, roleplay events, etc
The ability to react naturally to events. IE: Not replaying the same scenario over again.

[Swagile]

Noah pretty much handled it.

The major one is the competitive nature of the game; the whole game is built around that too. Aka robusting xenos and xenos robusting marines.

[driecg36]

I dont mind shitler XO and co's, personally. I think it CAN lead to a fun RP situation and possibly make the round more interesting. The problem is that MP's often forget that marine law>command, so they just act as the co's/xo's lapdogs, while THEY should be the ones arresting the xo/co for violation of marine law, rather than leaving it up to the marines to mutiny (which is incredibly hard to pull off and often leads to your round being ruined).

Either add a clause that marines are allowed and OBLIGATED to disobey illegal orders (like IRL, but could lead to more shitters mutinying for no good reason) or make it very clear that the xo/co is not above the law on the sulaco. The mp's are the only ones who can non-lethally take down a rogue xo/co effectively, but often they just ignore marine law just because the officers tell them to.

[4thsurviver]

I dont mind shitler XO and co's, personally. I think it CAN lead to a fun RP situation and possibly make the round more interesting. The problem is that MP's often forget that marine law>command, so they just act as the co's/xo's lapdogs, while THEY should be the ones arresting the xo/co for violation of marine law, rather than leaving it up to the marines to mutiny (which is incredibly hard to pull off and often leads to your round being ruined).

Either add a clause that marines are allowed and OBLIGATED to disobey illegal orders (like IRL, but could lead to more shitters mutinying for no good reason) or make it very clear that the xo/co is not above the law on the sulaco. The mp's are the only ones who can non-lethally take down a rogue xo/co effectively, but often they just ignore marine law just because the officers tell them to.

The thing about Marine Law is it starts getting messy especially if you want to hold Marine Law itself as the highest power. In this situation the CO ordered the doctors not to hand out drugs. That means any drug distribution is illegal since CO did not approve and any doctors doing it are also guilty of insubordination since he ordered no drug distribution. Now he is within his rights to not authorize drug distribution and as MPs you have to arrest the doctors for breaking the law. However you could say that CO is either intentionally or unintentionally disrupting medical operations on the ship by not allowing the doctors to distribute medicine to medics in that case its disorderly conduct. So now you could arrest either the CO or doctors for distributing pills or be fair and arrest both since they are both guilty. Of course then you have denied the ship its commander and its medical staff and are now guilty of disorderly conduct yourself by crippling ship operations unintentionally. Also you need to double the sentence of CO since any charges against him also count as conduct unbecoming of an officer. If you have also overpowered or made the CO step down and pass command onto someone else you have just played part in a mutiny and must perma brig yourself.

[NoahKirchner]

Via marine law, any time someone threatens to kill or harm another marine, you can brig them for 15 minutes.

[driecg36]

The thing about Marine Law is it starts getting messy especially if you want to hold Marine Law itself as the highest power. In this situation the CO ordered the doctors not to hand out drugs. That means any drug distribution is illegal since CO did not approve and any doctors doing it are also guilty of insubordination since he ordered no drug distribution. Now he is within his rights to not authorize drug distribution and as MPs you have to arrest the doctors for breaking the law. However you could say that CO is either intentionally or unintentionally disrupting medical operations on the ship by not allowing the doctors to distribute medicine to medics in that case its disorderly conduct. So now you could arrest either the CO or doctors for distributing pills or be fair and arrest both since they are both guilty. Of course then you have denied the ship its commander and its medical staff and are now guilty of disorderly conduct yourself by crippling ship operations unintentionally. Also you need to double the sentence of CO since any charges against him also count as conduct unbecoming of an officer. If you have also overpowered or made the CO step down and pass command onto someone else you have just played part in a mutiny and must perma brig yourself.

Law is meant to be confusing, honestly, but a clause saying mutiny with reasonable cause against a rogue XO/CO, as long as it has the support of some officers or MPs, should be legal.