What it really means to be a commander

[Renomaki]

You know, lately with the mild drama surrounding Rocco and his admittingly sad removal from the command roster, I am moved to try and explain what being a CO is about, and let me get this out of the way now: It isn't about getting victory by any means necessary.

Yes, winning as a CO is GREAT. You feel like your leadership helped lead the marines to victory, and all your efforts of keeping everyone together and focused on the objective had paid off. I know I had several intense games as a CO that, after hours of uncertainly, ended in glorious victory that was very satisfying, sometimes in the most unexpected of ways.

However, as great as winning is, you have to remember to keep in mind that going OVERBOARD to win is not what we want with our COs here.

I'm talking about COs that do shit like forcing all the specs to go Sadar or face punishment, the COs that set up FoBs at Hydro/Medbay for clear meta reasons, COs that immediately organize a full scale invasion of the Barrens for no real good reason other than "welp, the fog risen, lets go kick whatever asses that might be there". In other words, the kind of CO that focuses so much on winning that they don't give a shit about things like creativity and roleplay.

When I talk about things like creativity, I'm talking about things like briefings and announcements, as well as providing marines a reason to do things such as cross the river other than because "we just have to". Hell, we are visiting a colony in deep space, far from the normal protection of the common military, it coulda gone dark for any number of reasons! It isn't always because "Oh, someone musta sent the distress by accident"... If it seems so minor, why bring RPGS and miniguns? You wouldn't be bringing heavy weapons for what you assume to be a very minor op.

What about FoBs? Surely there is a better explanation as to why we are building a base of operation planetside, right? If you assume this op is so short, why bother making a planetside HQ in the first place? If you are gonna build one, think of a reason as to WHY, don't just go "because I say so".

See where I am going with this? COs, after all, are a HIGH RP ROLE, and because of that, they are expected to do a bit of story telling themselves to provide marines something to work off of, and thus make things more interesting and create sparks for roleplay among marines themselves.

In fact, a lot of the time, you may find yourselves RPing in the favor of the aliens, if only for the sake of fair play. After all, were it not for RP rules, I'd probably just start plopping OBs near LZ1 every round and baiting xenos into it for quick wins, cracking open the emergency armory and handing out heavy weapons to grunts for no logical reason other than to kill things faster, and using every powergamey trick in the book to win at all costs.. When of course that isn't very fair for the xenos and makes victory cheapened when you know

In a way, being a CO is kinda like being a game master, where you are pulling the strings of the game in an attempt to either win against your enemy, or lose gracefully against them in a climactic final battle for the colony, all while trying to ensure that everyone is having a good time... Even your enemies (since before the fog, marine metarushes always did suck and I'm glad we have some protection against that shit now so COs don't have to yank that leash so hard every round).

Now, I know what you are thinking: "well, if the CO's job is to be creative, why can't we do our own thing without being nagged by staff?"

Well, how about you ask yourself a question or two about something you wanna do.

1: is this powergaming? While finding new and creative ways to prepare for the mission is nice and all, there is a limit how far you can go before it starts to edge on meta/powergaming turf, such as breaking out the grenade launcher in the emergency armory to hand to one of your recon squads or sending a whole team of fully kitted doctors down on the first drop. Remember, you aren't sent knowing what is goin on down there, only on but a guess.

2: would this be fun for everyone? Some ideas might seem good on paper, but you might wanna take a moment to think of not just how mere marines would feel about it, but the enemy as well. Doing something that could be considered meta or cheap (such as the aforementioned placing of several OBs near LZ1 to bomb xenos attempting to steal the rasp) isn't fun for anyone. And no, just because xenos tend to be assholes a lot of the time doesn't justify it.

3: Would this be logical? Why are you here? You aren't totally sure, which is why you are sending your men down to investigate. Weyland clearly has requested your help for this op beforehand, otherwise their CL wouldn't be present. Was the colony attacked by raiders, or did it go rouge? Maybe a natural disaster happened and caused a lot of damage, requiring relief teams to be sent? Whatever your belief, you need to prepare accordingly. Saying you are here for one reason and then suddenly doing something completely random (such as burning and pillaging the colony for all her goods) is a little out of character for your mission...

I know I probably spent most of this topic babbling on and on about nonsense, but I do have a point to make, and that is that the CO shouldn't be focused fully on winning all the time. Your focus should be on trying to be a good leader throughout the game while trying to ensure that most of your marines are having a good time, while also trying to keep things fare and square during the match. If you can't win, then lose with dignity and fight bravely to the last to truly challenge your enemy.

I know my babbling will probably fall on deaf ears, but I just wanted to ramble a bit about COs and how focusing on winning as hard as possible can often just lead to detriments more than anything, and how some leaders tend to have trouble determining the difference between creativity and powergaming.

[Swagile]

Being steamrolled by xenos time after time again isn't fun either, so thats most likely why we have this mentality within quite a lot of XO's and recent CO's. Nor is it fun to be arrested by a MP as a Combat Medic because you asked for Peri on your first drop, which is the other side of the "anti-metagame" movement going on.

A good CO can strike a balance between those, but unfortunately I haven't really seen that done except from you and and Jester. Most CO's are their extremely powergamey, extremely anti-powergame, or they just fucking suck and makes you wonder why they still have the CO whitelist.

[OatzAndHoes]

I get and agree with your point that COs should RP, but I've got a few points to refute here.

1."Building a FOB without explanation is meta"
In nearly every sort of modern operation military forces set up defensive zones. The ones set up in CM are not nearly the size of a real life FOB, and are much closer in size to a combat outpost or COP(although they are even smaller than most IRL COPs). Building a COP or some sort of defensive position upon deploying into an unknown climate would be SOP for an operation like this.

2. "Why bring RPGs and miniguns"
Again, a military force that is used to dealing with terrorists, rebels, and pirates would not go down into an unknown situation like this without coming prepared. The smartgun doesn't really fit the description of a minigun, its more like a futuristic LMG, which every section(or whatever the US equivalent is) would have 2 of. SADARs fit the mold of a Carl Gustav type recoiless rifle, which is commonly seen in infantry platoons for taking out enemy armour or positions.

3. "Setting a beacon at LZ1 is powergaming"
When setting up a defensive position one of the things that is SOP is to set up predetermined firing coordinates for indirect fire support. One of those points is often your own defensive position in order to shell it if you have to fall back. This isn't some highly situational thing, it's a tactic taught day one on defensive week in infantry school.

RPing as a CO is good and should be strongly encouraged, but that doesn't mean they should act like an idiot either.

[Marcus Jackson]

I get and agree with your point that COs should RP, but I've got a few points to refute here.

1."Building a FOB without explanation is meta"
In nearly every sort of modern operation military forces set up defensive zones. The ones set up in CM are not nearly the size of a real life FOB, and are much closer in size to a combat outpost or COP(although they are even smaller than most IRL COPs). Building a COP or some sort of defensive position upon deploying into an unknown climate would be SOP for an operation like this.

2. "Why bring RPGs and miniguns"
Again, a military force that is used to dealing with terrorists, rebels, and pirates would not go down into an unknown situation like this without coming prepared. The smartgun doesn't really fit the description of a minigun, its more like a futuristic LMG, which every section(or whatever the US equivalent is) would have 2 of. SADARs fit the mold of a Carl Gustav type recoiless rifle, which is commonly seen in infantry platoons for taking out enemy armour or positions.

3. "Setting a beacon at LZ1 is powergaming"
When setting up a defensive position one of the things that is SOP is to set up predetermined firing coordinates for indirect fire support. One of those points is often your own defensive position in order to shell it if you have to fall back. This isn't some highly situational thing, it's a tactic taught day one on defensive week in infantry school.

RPing as a CO is good and should be strongly encouraged, but that doesn't mean they should act like an idiot either.

Honestly, to be on the CO white-list you should have to answer some hypothetical questions based around tactics and deployment or something, as sometimes I feel like the SL's are the ones that have to come up with the over-arching plan to win, rather than the smaller squad based tactics like we're supposed to.

[Rocco Ward]

In some situations command should rest upon the squad leaders, especially when bridge doesn't have eyes on the ground it's hard to tell what is happening. In those situations your only resource is comms, which is sparingly being used during a real time battle.

[Marcus Jackson]

In some situations command should rest upon the squad leaders, especially when bridge doesn't have eyes on the ground it's hard to tell what is happening. In those situations your only resource is comms, which is sparingly being used during a real time battle.

Yeah, that's fine, it's in the job description. But when Xur, Myself, and 2 others are having to juggle leading each of our squads, listening to the command staff fumble around rather than asking important questions or (even just making tactics on their own rather than us having to hold their hands), and also being in the middle of combat, is a bit much to ask when some of the problems can be easily divided up.

[Renomaki]

Yeah, that's fine, it's in the job description. But when Xur, Myself, and 2 others are having to juggle leading each of our squads, listening to the command staff fumble around rather than asking important questions or (even just making tactics on their own rather than us having to hold their hands), and also being in the middle of combat, is a bit much to ask when some of the problems can be easily divided up.

That is something that happens a lot, isn't it?

Very often, it seems marines are left to their own devices after being given their general objectives, with command not really doing much in the way of planning for big movements. I hate to keep using the "when I'm a CO" thing, but it does need to be said...

When I'm a CO, when there is enough justification to cross the river and attack the xenos, I normally try to get all the selected squads to rally at a set point and then attack when given the signal, hoping that it keeps the majority of the force together until the time comes to cross. Then, after all that, I regroup them again and ensure supplies are sent.

This doesn't always work, but I normally always try to direct squads during an attack, and if any are willing to flank, I am more than happy to have them flank to distract some of the xeno forces and make it easier to advance into the barrens. However, as is, a lot of the time I notice COs just give very general orders and just assume that the SLs will be able to take care of themselves.

Thing is, sometimes you have to hold their hands. Otherwise, you'd end up with cases where one squad overextends while another one scatters all over the place. SLs need orders to rely, and during big battles, it is important to direct them when you are able, to try and keep everyone organized. At least, I do anyways...

[TehSpoderman]

i feel like a commander needs to understand that they are responsible for every man down there and every death is their fault. i feel like if they have that mindset they can achieve good things.

[TehSpoderman]

btw what did Rocco do?

[Garrison]

btw what did Rocco do?

Long story short, wiped out half the hive when they tried to hijack the undefended Rasputin with 2 preemptively placed Orbital strikes. Was removed from the white-list for power gaming. (Edited for correction)


Still, I feel like there needs to be some more clarification in the rules about how the commander is too approach certain situations, or even that their goal isn't always supposed to be absolute victory. Since there are so many grey areas in the laws that make it difficult for a Commander to determine if they are at risk of breaking said rules. The whitelist readme for the Commander states that they must adhere strictly to the rules and role play guidelines. However, the guidelines for both seem to be either too broad or too narrow to really give any sort of picture of what a commander can or can't do aside from the bare essentials. (Respect the Chain of command, be in character, those sorts of things)


Reno's post however does help shed some light on it. If I ever do get the leadership skills to be a competent commander, I'd do my best to remember his words.

[Skelton]

shnip

Wasn't the problem that he put down those OB's pre-emptively in the knowledge that xenos would push back marines before they were a real threat? I believe that was the Powergaming element.

[Swagile]

LZ1 had no defences to speak of, though, so putting two OB's there to ensure it is not taken by enemy forces is a good strategy.

It would be powergaming if LZ1 had tons of defences and he still ordered OB's to be put down, but from what I understand, there was no defences because everyone focused on Jungle FOB, so making sure no one took the Rasp was a priority (especially since people still tried to use it to go up and down the Sulaco).

Also @TehSpoderman, most CO's and XO's don't give a shit about Marine lives, and to be honest thats how it should be TO AN EXTENT.

The only way to beat back the Xenos is to keep pushing and pushing and PUSHING because you will run out of ammo + medical supplies if you hunker down early. The only way bunkering works is if you have a Super FOB made by a good Engineer that can last AT LEAST ONE HOUR OF CONSTANT XENO ASSAULT, otherwise hunkering down is suicide for the marines. And in order to push back the xenos, you have to sacrifice at least THREE marines per ONE xeno kill. The ideal is ONE marine dead per ONE xeno dead but that ideal requires EXTREME competence on the Marine side, which is rare as fuck.

Unfortunately a lot of CO's and XO's take this to the extreme; they don't care AT ALL about Marine lives to the point that they don't send supplies down on time, don't send Hacked WeylandMeds, don't send down a Field Doctor, and don't get marines to send up the used up mags to be reloaded by Cargo. This usually ends up in Marine loss UNLESS xeno's are incompetent and take too much damage early on.

[OatzAndHoes]

Wasn't the problem that he put down those OB's pre-emptively in the knowledge that xenos would push back marines before they were a real threat? I believe that was the Powergaming element.

I've been debating making a thread on this because it really shouldn't be considered powergaming. It's called final protective fire or FPF, and it's a pretty well known, tried and true tactic that's been taught in militaries around the globe since the First World War. When setting up a defensive position it's common practice to give preset firing coordinates for indirect fire support on or very near your own position well in advance. There was a pretty well known case of a Russian officer dying while calling in an airstrike on his own position just last year.

[Skelton]

I've been debating making a thread on this because it really shouldn't be considered powergaming. It's called final protective fire or FPF, and it's a pretty well known, tried and true tactic that's been taught in militaries around the globe since the First World War. When setting up a defensive position it's common practice to give preset firing coordinates for indirect fire support on or very near your own position well in advance. There was a pretty well known case of a Russian officer dying while calling in an airstrike on his own position just last year.

I am aware of the tactical use of such strikes, the issue I believe stemmed from the fact that Rocco always established pre determined Orbital strike zones the moment you stepped off the landing craft before any threat was established. Which would be ridiculous if the threat happened to be plague. Obviously we know it's not but our characters don't know anything before we drop.

[Marcus Jackson]

I am aware of the tactical use of such strikes, the issue I believe stemmed from the fact that Rocco always established pre determined Orbital strike zones the moment you stepped off the landing craft before any threat was established. Which would be ridiculous if the threat happened to be plague. Obviously we know it's not but our characters don't know anything before we drop.

The issue is that it's a high priority distress beacon and the distress is never described. You could make arguments that it's power-gaming due to it possibly just being a food shortage.

You could make arguments for it being a illness, which would require us to use quarantine tactics.

You could make arguments for it being pirates, which makes the pre-determined OB zones practically required.

Hell you could make arguments to it being aliens since those apparently aren't a knew thing in the AvP universe's human lore.

It goes both ways and really the player should have a chance to defend themselves on that just as much as admins have the right to go over every detail.

[Swagile]

So basically unless your a meme commander admins like, or you ahelp everything as a CO, you can't do these tactics because its metagame or powergame despite IRL Military doing this type of shit and the fact that the nature of the distress is unknown hence the military should be high on alert for ANYTHING...

So basically whats the actual point of the CO role if they aren't trusted to make their own decisions then? Since they have to be vetted by the active community and accepted by administration, what is the point if they have to be hand held for any major decisions they make? Isn't the point of the CO whitelist is that they can do controversial tactics as long as they have a plausible IC reason for doing so?

If not, then just remove the CO whitelist, as it just turns into a favortist circle jerk on who gets the cool CO hat, and not on the actual playstyle of the player appyling unless it conforms to the admins vision (which makes being a CO pointless as anything that doesn't conform gets you banned unless your liked by the admins like Bill Carson is).

[Crab_Spider]

So basically unless your a meme commander admins like, or you ahelp everything as a CO, you can't do these tactics because its metagame or powergame despite IRL Military doing this type of shit and the fact that the nature of the distress is unknown hence the military should be high on alert for ANYTHING...

So basically whats the actual point of the CO role if they aren't trusted to make their own decisions then? Since they have to be vetted by the active community and accepted by administration, what is the point if they have to be hand held for any major decisions they make? Isn't the point of the CO whitelist is that they can do controversial tactics as long as they have a plausible IC reason for doing so?

If not, then just remove the CO whitelist, as it just turns into a favortist circle jerk on who gets the cool CO hat, and not on the actual playstyle of the player appyling unless it conforms to the admins vision (which makes being a CO pointless as anything that doesn't conform gets you banned unless your liked by the admins like Bill Carson is).

Please hush.

[Marcus Jackson]

Please hush.

You gotta admit, he's not wrong.

[TehSpoderman]

You gotta admit, he's not wrong.

yeah its the harsh reality tbh. can you name me one person that the admins gave special powers to enact revenge that isnt well known? or anything special tbh?

[Casany]

yeah its the harsh reality tbh. can you name me one person that the admins gave special powers to enact revenge that isnt well known? or anything special tbh?

Actually, yeah. Can't exactly remember his name but he was a survivor who managed to round up 10 monkies in the chapel and sacrifice them to the monkey gods. He was given a CHIMP70 but it was ID locked so he died, and the admin revived him so he could continue on
Another random guy, a survivor, managed to kill 4 runners and a sentinel with just boxing gloves so he was given golden god-tier gloves and branded 'The Champ'

I do see where you're coming from though