Lynn 'Cybele' Fischer - Don't be a dick, Improper Escalation.

[BeyondMyLife]

Your Byond Key:BeyondMyLife

Your Character Name:Laiq 'Jinn' Al Assaid

Accused Byond Key(if known):((Not known))

Character Name: Lynn 'Cybele' Fischer

Approximate time and date of the incident (Central US Time for fastest results):2:45 AM Monday June 5 2017

What rule(s) were broken:Literal and utter grief they caused another marines murder through improper escalation ((As I saw it))

Description of the incident:Earlier in the round, we had to escape onto DS2, to survive, it was Lynn, most of alpha squad, and a few others, we were running on big red through medbay, then down south after we got cornered, I killed a runner with my pulse rifle, getting my chest broken in the process, and they put me on a bed ((I was the only medic)) and a PFC picks up my medkit, after i tell them to stick me with an auto-injector to help with my pain, instead they proceed to empty most of the medkit on the ground, and run, I began calling them an idiot about 3 times, and as xenos were outside of a room we were in, in the big red, she began to shove me outside into the Xenos, over and over, the pilot, Lexis Muller tried to shove me back in, and she pushed him away and shoved the bed I was on out into the xenos, as a result, I was utterly killed, and shortly after, the PO was too, in his attempt to save my life, then she was killed, then the SL, Ico, her actions resulted in the death of quite literally, most of the remainder of alpha squad, and all of the survivors, as everyone ran out to help, and was killed in the slaughter because being called an 'idiot' warranted her shoving somebody into xenos.

Evidence (screenshots, logs, etc): http://prntscr.com/fg17hd http://prntscr.com/fg17kg

How you would punish the accused: A ban if possible, honestly, this was just over the top for a simple IC insult to them.

[Karmac]

I'd say something like that definitely deserves punishment.

It's the same kinda thing we punish xenos for doing.

[apophis775]

Have any witnesses post here. We'll get this investigated when we have a chance, but witnesses will speed it up.

[Feweh]

Heres the problem.

Because it was mostly shoving and pushing you around... There are 0 logs that we can verify to determine the extent of what would be "Rule 1, dont be a dick".

[BeyondMyLife]

Ico was there, 'Mullter' I can't reemember the name, the pictures should tell about muller

Joseph Simms.. Let me find mullers full name

Lexis Muller.

[Feweh]

Ico was there, 'Mullter' I can't reemember the name, the pictures should tell about muller

Joseph Simms.. Let me find mullers full name

Lexis Muller.

Even if these players said they saw him pushing you towards xenos... I cant do anything about it without logs.

1.The might be your friend.
2. Maybe they didnt see the whole picture? Perhaps you pushed the other guy earlier and he wanted some IC revenge.
3. The offending player had a really good reason for doing so that isn't clear, ie; He was trying to save his own ass.

[BeyondMyLife]

Lets get this pretty clear, the xenos were outside a door, we had a clear way to get out if we all went south, there was no 'saving her own ass' He literally shoved me out because he was called an idiot, that's not justified in the least bit


Second, I don't even know these players, Otherwise I would have called them by their usernames, or wouldn't have edited this like eight times in order to find the full name

Third, I hadn't touched that player the entire time, I was on a stretcher, and they were perfectly fine, unwounded, how in the literal hell would I push them in pain crit, with a broken chest, and internal bleeding, while strapped to a stretcher in the middle of a warzone.


That was the first time meeting them the entire round, it was pretty blatantly a big 'fuck you' to being called an idiot ((Which shouldn't ever fucking warrant a death))

[Westhybrid]

Hi there. I witnessed the events unfold.

So, to recap for context, we had been routed back to the Almayer, lost pretty much everyone, and then managed to grab DS-Two and shuttle down by the skin of our teeth. We had five of us. Lynn, Laiq, Muller, the LT and myself, plus a corpse Laiq was trying to revive for a while. There were about 9 or so (I think? Something in that ballpark) aliens still on the surface, and we were mostly injured and kept getting attacked. We had no where to really bunker down, and we were running constantly. The round had been going on for well over two, maybe three hours, and we were pretty much holding the round up since the heavy-hitting aliens had no way back to the surface from the Almayer.

We reach some wing of security close the the Command airlocks, and at this point we had killed maybe two, but taken on injured. One of them being Laiq. In a panic, since we were actively getting assaulted and were trying to find a way out, Lynn threw Laiq on a rollerbed and we booked it. I remember Laiq was berating Lynn as soon as she left behind some supplies. Lynn couldn't hold them all; she had a busted hand, AND was still trying to get Laiq out of there. Laiq was in critical condition, we had our backs to the wall, and whether it was out of spite or to save the rest of us, Lynn pushed Laiq's rollerbed with Laiq on it into the hallway. Muller tried to get Laiq back but it would be too late. Muller ended up getting got, and myself and the LT ran south into the outside towards atmospherics. Lynn died outside after falling behind seconds later. LT blew his head off when we got inside. I ran around for a little while after.

I could credit Lynn for buying us some time, but what it boils down to is this: It's an IC thing. Yes, it was a fuck you to Laiq, but it was an IC fuck you to Laiq. We were holding up the round, we were roleplaying the epitaph of five marines that made it off the Almayer alive, and it was a scenario that I can see being roleplayed correctly under the context. An injured, angry Laiq berating Lynn for losing some bandages, with aliens on our heels, it's not out of the woods for Lynn to have left Laiq behind to save the others under extreme duress, in a situation where we were all going to die anyway. It doesn't matter that Lynn pushed Laiq out; the round was essentially over the moment we left the Alamayer. We were playing an epilogue.

In my opinion, reporting Lynn in this situation seems excessive, and even when I was watching it unfold, I didn't see or sense any wrongdoing.It was all RP.

[BeyondMyLife]

I cannot say that this would, or could be considered 'IC', Whenever a marine nearly killed an entire squad, shot up a bunch of people, about 6 months back, and we were getting chased by aliens, an Admin PM'd me, and demanded I go fetch a body ,in xeno infested territory, who had been banned, and when It was too dangerous, to save my own skin, I was still faced with an admin attempting to perma-ban me, for 'violating my probation' when my probation had ended.

Bottom line, IC or not, this was a shitler thing to do, and I've gotten notes/day bans/etc for it before, And murdering somebody, in that manner, didn't seem justified at all, That was improper escalation beyond hell, that's like somebody disarming you, so you pull a shotgun out and blow their head clean off their shoulders cause you didn't like the way they disarmed you, you getting the jist? The justification didn't qualify for the end-result there.




To add onto this, your saying it was the epilogue, well we don't allow end round grief on this server, so by justifying something like that, even in a epilogue, your ideally saying end round grief is okay in that same mannerism, and we should blow each others heads clean off at round end, and have a death match, That'd be like sitting at the escape pod, and because there aren't enough for everyone, you decide to kill anyone else who gets in by slugging their brains out, yeah, it might be despserate, yeah, things might be going down the drain, but you can't go about doing things like that.


Grief is never okay, in any situation.


Never. Okay.

[slc97]

So, the rules have been changes since improper escalation was a thing. The rules now state that every interaction in marine v. marine encounter be RP justified essentially.

If this was a needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few thing as West is describing it, I'm wholly inclined to say that this was an IC situation and should remain as such.

[Westhybrid]

I cannot say that this would, or could be considered 'IC', Whenever a marine nearly killed an entire squad, shot up a bunch of people, about 6 months back, and we were getting chased by aliens, an Admin PM'd me, and demanded I go fetch a body ,in xeno infested territory, who had been banned, and when It was too dangerous, to save my own skin, I was still faced with an admin attempting to perma-ban me, for 'violating my probation' when my probation had ended.

Bottom line, IC or not, this was a shitler thing to do, and I've gotten notes/day bans/etc for it before, And murdering somebody, in that manner, didn't seem justified at all, That was improper escalation beyond hell, that's like somebody disarming you, so you pull a shotgun out and blow their head clean off their shoulders cause you didn't like the way they disarmed you, you getting the jist? The justification didn't qualify for the end-result there.




To add onto this, your saying it was the epilogue, well we don't allow end round grief on this server, so by justifying something like that, even in a epilogue, your ideally saying end round grief is okay in that same mannerism, and we should blow each others heads clean off at round end, and have a death match, That'd be like sitting at the escape pod, and because there aren't enough for everyone, you decide to kill anyone else who gets in by slugging their brains out, yeah, it might be despserate, yeah, things might be going down the drain, but you can't go about doing things like that.


Grief is never okay, in any situation.


Never. Okay.

I think you're out of touch with the reality of things. Particularly what happened, but also just how this server works.

I don't know about whatever scenario happened to you whatever amount of months ago with a probation probably well earned. Lynn abandoning you is not the same as that. And anyone who has spent a considerable amount of time here knows that Admins regardless of the ruleset defer to their own judgement of what qualifies as an infraction.

Your comparison of my use of the word epilogue with EORG? Not the same thing. Lynn didn't shoot you, for one, and the reason her action is justified is not based on or a result of your actions; its based on the context. There were very valid reasons in the form of angry aliens that justify why Lynn used you as bait. IC justifications, as in, not grief. Grief, might be, if Lynn in response to your insulting her, shot you herself, that could arguably be considered grief. But pushing your crash cart away, while she was injured, while she could barely hold a gun or walk or drag your already in critical condition body, are reasonable grounds for letting you die. Self-preservation. And sure, insulting her probably put you on the lowest end of the totem pole, but she also left Muller behind, and also ended up dying mere seconds later. You all died, in the end. To assert that she singled you out is a fallacy, and so are your analogies.

And lets also talk about this: If you've played a long round, you'll know that its tiring to watch a handful of people hold up the round. This is mostly associated with maybe a single Runner dipping around the map avoiding capture, in which case, Admins do this but are not limited to: Bioscans, Mother Reports, and bombs, as a means of ending the round for the sake of the sixty-something people who are now ghosts or waiting in limbo. We, after about three hours if that, managed to complete a two hour holdout on the planet, go up to the Almayer, get slaughtered, take a shuttle BACK to the planet, and hold up the round for another fifteen minutes. The round technically should have ended when the Xenos took the Almayer. We held it up; we were clearly going to die down there. There were no Admins to spawn us goodies, there was no argument to be made that we were going to live. The bonus was that we got to roleplay and live a little longer. So when you got pushed out as bait for the aliens, you really shouldn't have had anything to be mad about. It's the difference between dying then and dying a few seconds later.

And finally, I want to say this. I could've stayed silent and just let the report flounder because there are without a doubt no logs that corroborate your claims, and everything would've just been fine. But it'd be a disservice to Lynn and that round of itself if I didn't come here and tell you you're wrong. What we did by going down to the planet, even with you getting pushed out as bait, was good roleplay. You should honestly be content that your death in, let me remind you, a simple 2d spessmen game, had more meaning than any of the other sixty marines or so that got reamed the prior three hours. I enjoyed the hell out of that last drop; it made for a good story. And its disappointing more than anything that you didn't see that, and that you took it a step further by whining and taking this too seriously.

That's the last of the input I'll have on that. It was a good round, and Lynn did nothing wrong.

[BeyondMyLife]

Actually... There weren't valid reasons for her to do that., Lynn did cause my death, and that of almost everyone there, withh er actions, including you, Yes, it could've been a good story, but she didn't speak, she didn't do anything, she was literally a silent marine who killed somebody, there's no roleplay or reasoning.


Furthermore, 'abandoning' is dropping somebody somewhere, actively seeking to murder them, is pushing a cart out into a bunch of xenos, there's a large difference, she could have left me there, and ran, however what got me mad there, was she made it her active duty to push me out in front of the xenos





Bottom line here
There is a massive line between abandoning a marine, to buy time, and actively seeking to murder them, this was the latter, and your attempting to defend a baldie for doing it, without thinking through what you are saying.




To SLC, This is the thing, we were in no danger as long as we stuck together, I wasn't slowing them down virtually at all, muller and some of the others could vouch for that, this was a essential 'baldie' who never spoke the entire time we were on the ground, She shoved me out in front of them because I called her an idiot, even shoved aside the PO, Muller, who died trying to stop her and drag me back in because it wasn't necessary, and once muller went down, she ran, this was very blatantly not a 'bait' this was a 'i dislike what you said to me, so I'm going to silently shove you out without any roleplay on the matter'

[slc97]

Okay, we have one witness claiming the issue was completely unjustified and one witness saying it was completely justified. This is a situation in which investigation is not possible and even witness testimony isn't reliable

On one side we have you a notorious troublemaker, and the other side West, a former admin. Frankly, I'm not gonna put greater weight on either side of this argument. Instead, I'm gonna say that no action should be taken unless evidence can be provided. As it seems it cannot be, this should be finished.

[BeyondMyLife]

Perhaps I can get Muller and a few others? if I can find them, that is.

[Bran232]

Yeah, I tried to drag them to safety, but they kept getting pushed back into the xenos by mentioned player. Shortly after, I succumbed to fatal wounds. I ahelped about it, you should have that in the logs.

[Feweh]

Resolved.

Even with witness statements they mean nothing. As I said, anyone could have a grudge against you or really like you and lie.

Witness statements arent valuable for situations like these. It was also round end and mattered very little.