MP & CMP Jobban/Staff Complaint

[Mono]

Your Byond ID:Mon0

Character Name:Richard Holden

Type Of Ban (Job-ban, Timed Ban, Permaban):Jobban

Admin who banned you (if known):ZDashe

Total Ban Duration:N/A

Remaining Duration:N/A

What other servers do you play on? tg, vg

Are you now or have you been banned on any of them? one dayban tg a couple years ago

Reason for ban (If you have a Permaban, it should be the EXACT MESSAGE YOU GET WHEN YOU LOGIN with the Error code that looks like this: X##XXX##. If you do not provide this EXACTLY you can't be unbanned): MP - went SSD as MP without going to cryo by Adminbot (Friendly Robot) on Wed, April 12th of 2017/CMP - Shot and killed a prisoner as CMP. Broke marine law. Was previously MP banned.

Link to previous appeals for the same ban (if applicable):viewtopic.php?f=87&t=12357&p=132252#p132252

Your appeal, including evidence (screenshots, etc):Went CMP for a round and things went well for most of the round. We had basically no command staff until we got an XO 10 minutes before the planet fell and xenos came. So earlier in the round I had brigged delta spec for hooliganism and then resisting arrest(he had stolen the megaphone and refused to just turn it over). While I'm taking him to brig Max Knight runs up and tries to grab him and run. I tase them both and take Delta spec to the brig. I go back later for Max and have to add on disrespect and resisting arrest to his charges. Round goes fine afterwards with marines losing the planet hard and Max claiming that he had wanted to miss the entire op. He gets let out with a couple insults and punches me infront of the the other mp before evading arrest. Now the xenos are coming and the ship is in full evac as they slaughter everyone on the lower levels. I hole up with an MT and a couple marines to make sure people get out on the escape pods. In the middle of this Max, who had been openly speaking over the radio on how he wanted the MPs to die, decides to run up to me and punch twice. At this point code Delta has been declared and the SD is active, and this guy thinks his best choice is to assault one of his allies in the middle of a full blown invasion of the ship. His crimes add up to be way over the necessary time for either perma or to request an execution and the brig is not an option considering the xenos control the lower levels. The XO has barely spoken over the radios and I have no idea if they're even still alive, so I made a judgement call based and shot the fucker. If the suspect cannot be subdued with non-lethal force,the Chief MP may authorize lethal force in extreme situations, primarily when Marine lives and/or the safety of the ship are at risk. ZDashe messages me a bit afterwards and disregards all the immediate evidence of there being basically no means to properly secure him as a prisoner. This wasn't me tasing him, cuffing him, and then executing him inside a pod. This was a me shooting a repeat offender, attacking me in during the highest possible alert level, while the crew is getting slaughtered. The code Delta message for clarification https://i.gyazo.com/883860a20a4683f4cc4 ... e5a957.png.

Tl;Dr: A marine was being very obviously shit and attacking me in the middle of an evac and got shot for it.

[ZDashe]

Incident logs:

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[09:06:13]ATTACK: Max Knight's CKey/(Max Knight) punched Mon0/(Richard Holden)
[09:06:15]ATTACK: Max Knight's CKey/(Max Knight) punched Mon0/(Richard Holden)
[09:06:19]ATTACK: Richard Holden (mon0) shot Max Knight (Max Knight's CKey) with a the taser bolt (<A HREF='?_src_=holder;adminplayerobservecoodjump=1;X=181;Y=137;Z=3'>JMP</a>) (<a href='?priv_msg=[0x500000b]'>PM</a>)
[09:06:20]ATTACK: Richard Holden (mon0) shot Max Knight (Max Knight's CKey) with a the taser bolt (<A HREF='?_src_=holder;adminplayerobservecoodjump=1;X=181;Y=139;Z=3'>JMP</a>) (<a href='?priv_msg=[0x500000b]'>PM</a>)
[09:06:26]ATTACK: Richard Holden (mon0) shot Max Knight (Max Knight's CKey) with a the shotgun slug (<A HREF='?_src_=holder;adminplayerobservecoodjump=1;X=182;Y=142;Z=3'>JMP</a>) (<a href='?priv_msg=[0x500000b]'>PM</a>)
[09:06:28]ATTACK: Richard Holden (mon0) shot Max Knight (Max Knight's CKey) with a the shotgun slug (<A HREF='?_src_=holder;adminplayerobservecoodjump=1;X=182;Y=142;Z=3'>JMP</a>) (<a href='?priv_msg=[0x500000b]'>PM</a>)
[09:06:30]ATTACK: Richard Holden (mon0) shot Unknown (as Max Knight) (aflameablepigeon) with a the shotgun slug (<A HREF='?_src_=holder;adminplayerobservecoodjump=1;X=182;Y=142;Z=3'>JMP</a>) (<a href='?priv_msg=[0x500000b]'>PM</a>)
[09:06:43]ADMIN: HELP: Max Knight's CKey/(Max Knight): lol a mp killed me for punching him - heard by 4 non-AFK admins.

This was you tasing him, then killing him with a shotgun and taking them out of the round, simply because he punched you. I was willing to overlook the rules about improper escalation because I'm lenient like that, but I guess someone else will now have to apply that ban now since you insist on pursuing this issue.

Staff PMs:

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[09:08:05]ADMIN: PM: ZDashe/(-)->Mon0/(Richard Holden): Hey, why did you kill Max Knight?
[09:09:03]ADMIN: PM: ZDashe/(-)->Mon0/(Richard Holden): Right, so you killed him after you tased him for punching you
[09:09:07]ADMIN: PM: Mon0/(Richard Holden)->ZDashe/(-): We are literally in the middle of being invaded by a hostile force, hes a repeat offender that straight assaulted me in the middle of it
[09:09:23]ADMIN: PM: ZDashe/(-)->Mon0/(Richard Holden): That doesn't explain why you killed him. You're the CMP even
[09:09:38]ADMIN: PM: ZDashe/(-)->Mon0/(Richard Holden): Actually, you're job banned from MPs.
[09:09:59]ADMIN: PM: Mon0/(Richard Holden)->ZDashe/(-): The fact were being slaughtered by hostiles doesnt explain it?
[09:10:14]ADMIN: ZDashe/(-) perma-banned Mon0/(Richard Holden) from Chief MP
[09:10:34]ADMIN: PM: ZDashe/(-)->Mon0/(Richard Holden): you broke Marine law as a MP
[09:10:57]ADMIN: PM: Mon0/(Richard Holden)->ZDashe/(-): Point me to what law cover invasion by hostiles and detaining prisoners please
[09:12:04]ADMIN: PM: Mon0/(Richard Holden)->ZDashe/(-): Assaulting your allies obviously in a fucking invasion counts towards mutiny
[09:12:15]ADMIN: PM: ZDashe/(-)->Mon0/(Richard Holden): http://cm-ss13.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=5094 Marine job specific rule 5. "You must disregard an order if it is against these rules. Furthermore, you must treat Marine Law as an extension of these rules - breaking Marine Law as an MP may result in a jobban." And you killed a marine. That's improper use of lethals. Do you need me to link you to the Marine Law wiki too?
[09:13:16]ADMIN: PM: Mon0/(Richard Holden)->ZDashe/(-): You literally cannot call it improper use of lethals when we cant use the brig and the ship is in full evac
[09:14:08]ADMIN: PM: ZDashe/(-)->Mon0/(Richard Holden): Here, let me help you: http://cm-ss13.com/wiki/Marine_Law. There's no mutiny involved, and executing your prisoner like that is clearly in violation of marine law. Being invaded gives you no excuse to kill your prisoner.
[09:15:57]ADMIN: PM: Mon0/(Richard Holden)->ZDashe/(-): You have yet to point to anything that points to me breaking the rules. This isn't a typical fucking situation where I could brig him. And yes a full evac of the ship in the case of an invasion is a special fucking circumstance, or do you not know what code delta means?
[09:16:58]ADMIN: PM: ZDashe/(-)->Mon0/(Richard Holden): I have clearly linked you the marine law, and under what circumstance does it justify MPs to use lethals against their prisoners? You have never addressed your point yet.
[09:17:52]ADMIN: PM: Mon0/(Richard Holden)->ZDashe/(-): Here let me help you since you obviously didnt see the code fucking delta. https://i.gyazo.com/883860a20a4683f4cc4894902ae5a957.png
[09:18:27]ADMIN: PM: ZDashe/(-)->Mon0/(Richard Holden): And does it state that in code Delta, server rules do not apply?
[09:19:38]ADMIN: PM: Mon0/(Richard Holden)->ZDashe/(-): See that? Violations may be punished by death? What fucking server rule? MPs are authorized lethals in the corect circumstances and as the cmp I'mm free to request executionsfor criminals
[09:20:00]ADMIN: PM: Mon0/(Richard Holden)->ZDashe/(-): His timer went well into the real of execution
[09:20:12]ADMIN: PM: ZDashe/(-)->Mon0/(Richard Holden): But you request executions, what you failed to understand was you are NOT allowed to perform the execution without proper procedures, THAT is in violation of marine law 

[Snypehunter007]

Zdashe is right, you did violate marine law by executing him. You didn't have the authority to do so.

Also, ban appeals and staff complaints are two different things. Make up your mind on which you are going to post.

[slc97]

So, here's the major issue at hand here. You had options for this. You could have tased him and left him. You could have tased him, cuffed him, and dragged him with you. You could have helped and been like, "Hey, this guy has been being a dick and punching people for no reason all round. Can you guys do something about it." And we woulda been like, "yeah, fuck that guy. We got this."

Instead, you chose the worst possible option. To steal from John Oliver, you were given the option to choose between soup and salad, and you said "I'll go with the N word". You can't just decide to execute someone as an MP. That's not the way this shit works.

Furthermore, Snype is correct. If this is a staff complaint, you needed to post it as a staff complaint. However, it would be a meritless staff complaint because Zdashe operated completely within protocol. I am in now way inclined to suggest this ban be removed because of this appeal.

[Mono]

So, here's the major issue at hand here. You had options for this. You could have tased him and left him. You could have tased him, cuffed him, and dragged him with you. You could have helped and been like, "Hey, this guy has been being a dick and punching people for no reason all round. Can you guys do something about it." And we woulda been like, "yeah, fuck that guy. We got this."

Instead, you chose the worst possible option. To steal from John Oliver, you were given the option to choose between soup and salad, and you said "I'll go with the N word". You can't just decide to execute someone as an MP. That's not the way this shit works.

Furthermore, Snype is correct. If this is a staff complaint, you needed to post it as a staff complaint. However, it would be a meritless staff complaint because Zdashe operated completely within protocol. I am in now way inclined to suggest this ban be removed because of this appeal.

My experience with actually ahelping something as simple as punching is for it to be rejected
Since Marine Law seems to be whats getting thrown at me: Tasing and leaving him means not doing my damn job and cuffing him means he's under my protection with effectively no pod to get us both away in. There were atleast 6 people there including an MT and doctor who needed to escape much more than either me or the marines.
I effectively got left in a situation where I was cut off from anyone who I could even ask for authorization to execute him and left as the highest command, so I made the call.

If I could edit the title I would, I get the point.

[slc97]

Except, you don't get to make the call to execute, and you especially don't get to assume what staff will do in a situation and take the rules into your own hands.

[Mono]

Except, you don't get to make the call to execute, and you especially don't get to assume what staff will do in a situation and take the rules into your own hands.

So what you're saying is that at no point, even when its code delta, even when the rest of command is unresponsive/dead, even when perma is not an option, even when contacting high command is not an option, the WO cannot allow and execution and must always operate nonlethally

[slc97]

Yup. You weren't the acting commander or the commander, therefore, you had no authority to for all execute or battlefield execute.

[Swagile]

The problem here is that in no way does Delta procedure allow the execution of a Marine without proper authorization.

The only codes that Marine Law covers is Green, Blue, and Red. Marine Law does not care about Delta code at the moment so its fluff.

The only times lethal force is allowed is in extreme cases like a mutiny, where lethal force is being used against your men or Command; that is what the CMP clause of "allowing lethal force" is about. Not shotgunning a marine point blank if he's punching you a few times. Tasering him would have been the best course of action.

The debate, however, stems on whether Marine Law should be amended to include emergency situations such as this. Should Delta code be added and allow MP's more leeway as per Marine Law? If Brig is unavailable and a person commits a crime during an increased code level, can their sentence be upped? This is a question for Apop, who maintains Marine Law currently.

[Mono]

Yup. You weren't the acting commander or the commander, therefore, you had no authority to for all execute or battlefield execute.

That's all I wanted, some clarity

The problem here is that in no way does Delta procedure allow the execution of a Marine without proper authorization.

The only codes that Marine Law covers is Green, Blue, and Red. Marine Law does not care about Delta code at the moment so its fluff.

The only times lethal force is allowed is in extreme cases like a mutiny, where lethal force is being used against your men or Command; that is what the CMP clause of "allowing lethal force" is about. Not shotgunning a marine point blank if he's punching you a few times. Tasering him would have been the best course of action.

The debate, however, stems on whether Marine Law should be amended to include emergency situations such as this. Should Delta code be added and allow MP's more leeway as per Marine Law? If Brig is unavailable and a person commits a crime during an increased code level, can their sentence be upped? This is a question for Apop, who maintains Marine Law currently.

And yes, that summarizes my issue. I was under the impression the code delta message wasn't just fluff.

I'll sit back and wait for the final decision

[Feweh]

Uh... resolved?