Incident involving Solarflare

[Cirukcaller]

Your Byond Key: Cirukcaller

Your Character Name: Jared Howland

Their Byond key: Solarflare

Approximate time and date of the incident (Central Us Time for best results): Oh dear. Well, it was about one-two hours from here back, and I'm uncertain what U.S Central time sides against mine own to Central America. I guess it would've been at around 11-PM 12-AM time.

Which Staff Protocols (http://cm-ss13.com/viewtop ... =57&t=5647) were broken: On the Protocol tab- he failed to send me a message to explain my actions, reasoning and taking of consequences. In fact, he didn't contact me whatsoever at any given time to my knowledge. I also want to say, but this one I cannot prove, that he didn't quite investigate the situation in terms of listening to my point of view. When I sent my first adminhelp in complaint to the event, he immediately - and I do mean immediately - clicked the "Its being solved." Or, if it wasn't him, it must've been another admin- sadly, a brief disconnect eliminated those logs from my reach so I'll need someone to corroborate. I sent a very lengthy adminhelp, so you can see my concern in it not being heeded to. I also sent another adminhelp with proof of the character I had issues with at the time looting me, which also went ignored and unreplied to.

Description of the incident: A non-descript player looted my character. He took my character's rifle and incinerator, leaving me with his own unmodified rifle and taking off with mine and said incinerator. I went after him, and from my previous experiences rather than enact righteous vengeance and voicing some verse from the Bible I, which logs can also corroborate, questioned him upon why he had taken my goods. He ignored me, and so I chose to go down the less lethal path- I disarmed him aiming for him to release the incinerator he was holding with one hand. Me disarming him immediately prompted him to two-hand his incinerator, to signal he was about to set me on fire, but as fate would have it my disarming him caused him to discharge and accidentally set himself on fire.

Given the incident, and himself damaged even if the intention was to retrieve my incinerator, I decided that it wasn't worth it and that I had already earned what best I could from an already shitty situation, so I left him be. Deciding to just settle for the shitty rifle with the mag light, I am about to start dismantling the rifle to set an RDS I had found closely before the incinerator man who had stolen my goods and ignored my attempts at diplomacy immediately wandered to me and set me ablaze with the flamer. He didn't just hit me with the invisible incinerating projectile, he largely fucked me with the pathing of it as well. Immediately in crit, immediately about to die, I pull out my rifle and spray him as he continues to set me ablaze. We both die. He is revived, while another player completely ICly involved in the issue undresses my character, ID and everything, before hiding my corpse in a morgue casket, which robs me of the chance of being revived and reintegrated into the round despite being the one originally wronged, and assaulted both. I voiced this as concern to the administration and, as logs will prove, it was also largely - utterly - ignored as well. Perhaps they were busy, if so I can understand, but being left in the dark before being banned for something I personally see unfair really sucks my dudes.

Evidence (screenshots, logs, etc): https://imgur.com/UotwEft Here's the proof that the player did indeed loot me wordlessly while the shuttle was being spammed with players speaking. https://i.imgur.com/1ABLcda.png Here is the reason of the ban. Me being set ablaze and looted, prior to being ignored and merely 'disarming' the player before said player set me ablaze should've been taken as improper escalation from him, rather than myself. All I did was defend myself. If firing at someone with your gun that has just set you aflames with an incinerator is improper escalation, then I personally believe re-evaluation is in order towards this rule, or maybe it just doesn't happen enough to matter.

How you would punish the accused: I honestly have no idea. I've never been an admin in this situation; I've never been a moderator in this situation, and I'm uncertain of what the administration of this server considers fair repentance for judgements that, this one in example, still haven't been considered even valid towards Solarflare in question. All in all, I figure you'd know what to do with your own more than me, really.

[NGGJamie]

All right, so here's a rundown of the staff PMs between Solarmare, the SL, the third party, and you. There's a bit that was also said in staff-chat that is relevant to give the events context. Bolded lines are where he PMed the complainant for ease of spotting.

► Show Spoiler

[23:16:13]ADMIN: PM: Solarmare/(Kane Laborde)->UngluedToast/(Laslow Clements): Why did you shoot him to death?
[23:16:40]ADMIN: PM: UngluedToast/(Laslow Clements)->Solarmare/(Kane Laborde): He opened fire on an SL after following him trying to disarm him.
[23:17:58]ADMIN: PM: Solarmare/(Kane Laborde)->Klive45/(Abli Haniabla): Why did you use a flamer on Jared?
[23:21:54]ADMIN: PM: Solarmare/(Kane Laborde)->Klive45/(Abli Haniabla): Don't use a lethal weapon on the case a misfire, you can punch them if they caused a misfire
[23:22:23]ADMIN: PM: Solarmare/(Kane Laborde)->Klive45/(Abli Haniabla): Usiing a flamer straight out on somone can kill them and is more or less an attempt of straight up murder after a misfire
[23:22:40]ADMIN: PM: Klive45/(Abli Haniabla)->Solarmare/(Kane Laborde): Ok understood.
[23:23:02]ADMIN: PM: Klive45/(Abli Haniabla)->Solarmare/(Kane Laborde): Just wanted to share what happened
[23:23:18]ADMIN: PM: Solarmare/(Kane Laborde)->Klive45/(Abli Haniabla): Avoid using a lethal response in the future in response to something without properly escalating it. Ahelp if you feel you need to use lethals or are being griefed and shot.
[23:23:42]ADMIN: PM: Klive45/(Abli Haniabla)->Solarmare/(Kane Laborde): I can Ahelp Friendly fire?
[23:24:36]ADMIN: PM: Solarmare/(Kane Laborde)->Klive45/(Abli Haniabla): Friendly fire for the most part is accidental, if it's being used intentionally however without a proper escalation
[23:24:57]ADMIN: PM: Solarmare/(Kane Laborde)->Klive45/(Abli Haniabla): Like someone shooting you after punching them for example, that's improper escalation.
[23:25:35]ADMIN: PM: Klive45/(Abli Haniabla)->Solarmare/(Kane Laborde): Then to be honest. i was really upset that he came after me even when he saw me with it. Like didnt he expect me to take it back from him?
[23:26:17]ADMIN: PM: Solarmare/(Kane Laborde)->Klive45/(Abli Haniabla): At that points an IC issue, up to the point where you fired on him with the flamer it would have been fine.
[23:29:12]ADMIN: PM: Solarmare/(Kane Laborde)->Cirukcaller/(mouse): Oh huh, didn't see your ghost
[23:29:38]ADMIN: PM: Solarmare/(Kane Laborde)->Cirukcaller/(mouse): Alright so, you firing at the guy who flamed you was improper escalation
[23:30:03]ADMIN: PM: Solarmare/(Kane Laborde)->Cirukcaller/(mouse): At the point he flamed you, you should have ahelped as that was improper escalation
[23:34:42]ADMIN: PM: Solarmare/(Solarmare)->Klive45/(Klive45): From punshing to a lethal melee weapon yes
[23:35:09]ADMIN: PM: Solarmare/(Solarmare)->Klive45/(Klive45): A rifle without attachments isn't much good so that wouldn't justify shooting them unless it had a bayonet
[23:35:39]ADMIN: PM: Klive45/(Klive45)->Solarmare/(Solarmare): Hmm?
[23:36:01]ADMIN: PM: Solarmare/(Solarmare)->Klive45/(Klive45): Beyond that you should be trying to resolve the issue by speaking, if there's no actual interaction between you then it's basically just low rp grief to each other

In that 4 minute span between the last PM to Cirukcaller and his next PM to Klive45, he stated in Mod Say that you logged out while he was PMing you, so he went through with a ban.

Here are the AHelps that went through as some of them tell relevant stories.

► Show Spoiler

[23:16:11]ADMIN: HELP: Cirukcaller/(Jared Howland): I was killed by Delta SL in an ensuing argument after he stole my incinerator and set me on fire after I tried to reclaim him. I shot him in self-defense, and PFC Laslow Clements decides to completely loot my dead body- he didn't just remove my armor and weapons, he undressed me and removed everything, even my ID. Then he went and hid my body inside a morgue casket. - heard by 3 non-AFK admins.
[23:18:44]ADMIN: HELP: Cirukcaller/(Jared Howland): https://i.imgur.com/UotwEft.png Here is proof of logs that the Delta SL did indeed loot me for my rifle and my incinerator. At no given point was I offline- I just didn't notice at the time due to several chat spam, comprehensively from the numbers of players playing. - heard by 2 non-AFK admins.
[23:18:54]ADMIN: HELP: Klive45/(Abli Haniabla): DEAD: Jared Howland says, ;And you took that incinerator off of me, I have the logs; This man. took my incinerator after the dropship landed forcing me to drop it.. I took it off his body and went away., He comes up to me and starts disarming me. The incinerator goes off setting me ablaze and i roasted him for it. - heard by 2 non-AFK admins.

Attack logs between the two specifically:

► Show Spoiler

[23:12:53]ATTACK: Cirukcaller/(Jared Howland) disarmed Abli Haniabla (klive45)
[23:12:54]ATTACK: Cirukcaller/(Jared Howland) disarmed Abli Haniabla (klive45)
[23:12:55]ATTACK: Cirukcaller/(Jared Howland) disarmed Abli Haniabla (klive45)
[23:12:57]ATTACK: Cirukcaller/(Jared Howland) disarmed Abli Haniabla (klive45)
[23:12:59]ATTACK: Cirukcaller/(Jared Howland) disarmed Abli Haniabla (klive45)
[23:13:00]ATTACK: Cirukcaller/(Jared Howland) disarmed Abli Haniabla (klive45)
[23:13:01]ATTACK: Cirukcaller/(Jared Howland) disarmed Abli Haniabla (klive45)
[23:13:02]ATTACK: Cirukcaller/(Jared Howland) disarmed Abli Haniabla (klive45)
[23:13:04]ATTACK: Cirukcaller/(Jared Howland) disarmed Abli Haniabla (klive45)
[23:13:36]ATTACK: Abli Haniabla (klive45) shot Jared Howland (cirukcaller) with a M240A1 incinerator unit
[23:13:39]ATTACK: Jared Howland (cirukcaller) shot Abli Haniabla (klive45) with a the rifle bullet
[23:13:39]ATTACK: Jared Howland (cirukcaller) shot Abli Haniabla (klive45) with a the rifle bullet
[23:13:41]ATTACK: Jared Howland (cirukcaller) shot Abli Haniabla (klive45) with a the rifle bullet
[23:13:41]ATTACK: Jared Howland (cirukcaller) shot Abli Haniabla (klive45) with a the rifle bullet
[23:13:42]ATTACK: Abli Haniabla (klive45) shot Jared Howland (cirukcaller) with a M240A1 incinerator unit (Wielded)
[23:13:43]ATTACK: Laslow Clements (ungluedtoast) shot Jared Howland (cirukcaller) with a the rifle bullet
[23:13:44]ATTACK: Jared Howland (cirukcaller) shot Abli Haniabla (klive45) with a the rifle bullet
[23:13:43]ATTACK: Laslow Clements (ungluedtoast) shot Jared Howland (cirukcaller) with a the rifle bullet
[23:13:44]ATTACK: Laslow Clements (ungluedtoast) shot Jared Howland (cirukcaller) with a the rifle bullet
[23:13:44]ATTACK: Jared Howland (cirukcaller) shot Abli Haniabla (klive45) with a the rifle bullet
[23:13:45]ATTACK: Laslow Clements (ungluedtoast) shot Jared Howland (cirukcaller) with a the rifle bullet

Chat logs leading up to the incident:

► Show Spoiler

[23:08:45]SAY: Jared Howland/Cirukcaller : We're going to lose grounds zero.
[23:09:10]SAY: Jared Howland/Cirukcaller : You can make a large bet.
[23:09:13]SAY: Jared Howland/Cirukcaller : That bum's in town.
[23:09:26]SAY: Abli Haniabla/Klive45 : HELP
[23:09:40]SAY: Abli Haniabla/Klive45 : Its still getting hotter!
[23:10:01]SAY: Jared Howland/Cirukcaller : ALAMO DOWN WHEN!
[23:10:43]SAY: Abli Haniabla/Klive45 : Where ma flamer
[23:12:42]SAY: Abli Haniabla/Klive45 : SCREECHER DESTROYED
[23:12:50]SAY: Jared Howland/Cirukcaller : Why did you take my gun and incinerator?
[23:13:12]SAY: Jared Howland/Cirukcaller : Jesus.
[23:14:03]SAY: Ghost/Cirukcaller : This fucking marine just saw him set me on fire
[23:14:08]SAY: Ghost/Cirukcaller : And he decides to kill me instead of help me kill him
[23:14:14]SAY: Ghost/Cirukcaller : Jesus fuck, what a fucking retard

Edit: The player being accused's notes:

► Show Spoiler

Warned for leaving ID in computer as LO. by x Moderator) on Tue, June 2nd of 2015

Banned from Commander - Suicideing as commander, Createing masisive breach as commander, Please apeal this ban on our fourms http://cm-ss13.com/ by Adminbot (Friendly Robot) on Wed, June 3rd of 2015 Remove

Player made a strong grenade as researcher and blew a hole in Sulaco as aliens were attacking. Strictly warned... as he owned up to it. by x (Moderator) on Wed, February 10th of 2016

Opened the shuttle shutters because he didn't know it already launched. Dunno how he didnt notice a guy falling next to him and the whole screen shaking. by x (Mapper) on Sun, May 8th of 2016

Dumped a guy down in disposals after an iffy escalation ICly. Warned, apply severe punishment on next offense. by x (Moderator) on Wed, May 11th of 2016

Spawned as CO Steven, no surname. Has been PMed about talking about aliens on the planet at roundstart. by x (Mentor) on Sun, October 9th of 2016

Spawned as CE Stephen, no surname. Forgot it again at roundstart. by x (Mentor) on Sun, October 9th of 2016

Banned by snypehunter007|Duration: 720 minutes|Reason: Joined as "Stephen", third time for improper name; lied to staff saying: "Player PM from Klive45/(Stephen)(?): I started this game today" despite prievous notes by x (Moderator) on Sun, October 9th of 2016

Banned by jayburns|Duration: 120 minutes|Reason: Opened phoron in lower engi, seemed remorseful and didnt complain about his ban by x (TrialModerator) on Sat, October 15th of 2016

Was running around planetside fully armed and armored as a CT. Evac was not ordered. by x (Moderator) on Sun, November 6th of 2016

Banned by scrat505|Duration: 180 minutes|Reason: EORG by x (Admin) on Fri, April 28th of 2017

Banned from Requisitions Officer, Cargo Technician - SSD at roundstart as RO by Adminbot (Friendly Robot) on Sun, September 17th of 2017 Remove

RO, CT job-bans lifted on this date. by x (Moderator) on Fri, September 29th of 2017

IImproper escalation, used a flamer on someone after being pushed by them causing it to light themself on fire. by x (Moderator) on Tue, October 17th of 2017

[apophis775]

Waiting to hear from Solar, but it appears there may not have been the amount of investigation we typically look for before applying a ban.

Especially since Klive has a history of doing this at least once in the past.

Also, I wouldn't totally consider it "improper escalation" if you shoot someone who is killing you with your own gun.

[Solarmare]

As far as I saw they did try to steal the flamer off you, and I thought the incident fine up to the point where Klive decided to fire at you with the flamer. In my opinion the flamer misfiring from the disarm spam and burning Klive was more of a tragic accident, which didn't provide enough justification to use the flamer on cirukcaller at that point. At the point where they fired, and cirukcaller fired back I had determined to be improper escalation at both ends.

The incident was a bit worse than it looked and made me need more time looking into it before doing anything, as there was a third party (the noted laslow clements) that had decided to kill cirukcaller which wasn't quite justified either but I didn't have the time to speak to them since I was dealing with the first two and the round had ended by then. As far as Klive went I only saw their note history and wasn't aware of them doing this beforehand, so I had proceeded as if they had not done it previously. I thought I had pm'd cirukaller by then, but it was entirely possible I missed pming them when dealing with the other two and couldn't ask cirukcaller since they had logged off at that point. As far as the ahelps went I gave a being handled message to them.

As far as the pm's to cirukcaller were, I had tried pming them earlier but they seem to had logged off by then, the pm's you see to them were near the end of me looking into it as I had mistaken it for cirukaller logging back in and then realizing they was still offline. The reason I had banned then them is they were specifically warned to ahelp when they were being griefed such as having lethal forced used improperly against them in this case, and as they were logged off by then I couldn't notify circukaller of why I was applying it.

To summarize it all, I viewed it as a case of improper escalation on all of the three parties involved. Klive didn't seem to give much interation besides stealing the incinerator and firing at cirukaller when it misfired, as well as their apparent history of assaulting others which should be noted if true, as I was unaware of it and didn't quite have a way to be aware of it I think. I thought cirukaller justified in their actions until they fired back at klive, and had given me enough detail on their end with their ahelps though I had failed to pm cirukaller as I was PMing the other two about their actions at the time. It was a situation that ended up turning into grief between three players in my opinion. Perhaps I had misjudged by considering it improper escalation, but I believe I looked enough into it to justify my decision at that point.

[Cirukcaller]

I apologize for disconnecting. I felt ignored, waited around for a response, and just made the improper assumption that for whatever reason I was no longer part of the negotiating table of the problem that happened. I was betwixt a divide of "Okay pal, we saw what happened and we're dealing with it" so I assumed that's why my PM's went unanswered, and the less optimistic; the also less correct "We're too busy to care," but as you can tell from one of the spoilers there, I was upset. Upset due to yet again being drawn into a completely unfair situation due to players just refusing to dialogue their problems and instead loot&pull into hostilities that weren't necessary, namely looting my character while my attention was elsewhere. Voiced goes that I did try to talk to him towards the matter, and he ignored me, its why the disarming begun.

I'll completely understand the fault that I should've PM'd upon being griefed, but I'm trying to pry here for understanding that its mere instinct that if someone sets you on fire you respond by firing back at them. I want to say that I'm the embodiment of calmness and neutrality in these matters, but truth is - as far as emotions go and I go - if someone decides to let their flamer purposefully on you immersion and OOC-bound reaction binds you to shoot back at them. I did, however, immediately adminhelp once the situation had concluded. The reason I make this complaint is because I'm frightfully meaning to not let any slight pass towards my account's notes- I don't want to paint myself any more horribly than my notes already dictate, and I genuinely care about retaining the bare minimum of understanding that I'm not the terrible human being first glance notes denote me as. That's why, saying that I improperly escalated an issue with a marine - and not just a marine, a Delta Squad leader from whom I personally would expect more seriousness - who set me on fire with a flamer, meant to go for my notes, truly hinged me on a wrong angle, you know? Its nothing personal against Solarmare, I'm sure he's got to deal with eleven situations on this angle everyday.

[Solarmare]

Hm, it's not really too much against you personally. I just tend to punish each person who carries out improper escalation because they specifically make things worse, even if it's in response. Like in this case, firing back gave a reason for the delta marine who shot you to death afterwards a reason to actually fire at you.

It's best just to ahelp, as responding back to grief with grief only encourages more I've found. I suppose I can say I considered all of it an improper escalation as it was a case where three people ended up trying to kill each other because one of them tried to steal an incinerator, which seems like an absurd result over a weapon.

[Cirukcaller]

Well, to say that three people ended up trying to kill each other because one of them tried to steal an incinerator isn't what happened whatsoever. One actually took said incinerator, he ignored any attempt at its original owner to retrieve it, his attempt at flaming said owner who tried to disarm him for retrieving it culminated in him accidentally setting himself ablaze. In response, he tries to kill the owner, who kills him in return with the help of another PFC who witnessed him first attempting to kill said owner of the incinerator. It was more-so two players trying to kill one player, it being myself, this wasn't a triangle of sorts at any given point. It was very specific, actually.

And I didn't respond to grief with grief- I was griefed, and merely acted from an IC point that made sense, which was to defend my character's survival by shooting at the player. This isn't goon- I like to pretend there's a possibility to portray a character, and its ingrained in me to avoid breaking immersion as much as is possible. Sadly, when a marine SL decides to torch my character because he's butthurt he managed to set himself on fire that goes under the radar of it.

[Solarmare]

Refer to our rules on grief, specifically that even if that wasn't your intention it can still be considered so, as far as I was concerned the situation shouldn't have occurred where they shot you with the flamer making it grief from that point. I would say responding to it with lethal force was grief, even if it may have made sense to you IC, as it only made the situation worse and encouraged the PFC to fire at you when it could have been handled appropriately otherwise by just ahelping. The SL was dealt with as well, the main difference would be they did not have a history of improper escalation as far as I was aware and you actually did.

In the end my opinion was that an incinerator being taken and misfiring on them when you tried to retrieve it wasn't enough justification for them to fire at you, but that didn't really give you justification to fire back when you could have just ahelped.

[Feweh]

I mean, if someone flamethrowered me id probably try to kill them.

The difference though, is trying to decipher was it accidental or intentional in a moments notice.

[Solarmare]

I would suppose in the end it's whether the use of the flamethrower on them was justified, if it was them the response would have been fine. I didn't see much roleplay between the two and as far as I was concerned the incident shouldn't have occurred in the first place, so I judged it to be an improper escalation on their part.

[Cirukcaller]

Well, the player has already admitted in the logs that he did indeed flamethrower me purposefully rather than accidentally. And it was purposefully, he accidentally set himself on fire as well after I disarmed him meaning to grab my flamethrower back, and his reaction - as I've said - was to actively try to kill me with his flamethrower for this mistake which was his alone. He chose to two-hand his flamethrower as I'm disarming him, 100% meaning to use it on me since for what other reason? And this in turn caused it to discharge in front of him as he tried to gain distance from me, so setting himself on fire. A person who didn't try to escalate when someone is disarming them doesn't 2 hand their incinerator to set them on fire. This guy was the one who improperly escalated from the start, all I did was defend myself- someone setting you on fire with an incinerator and you shooting them back for it is no "improper escalation" from my part. Its completely fair in terms of self-defense. He's the one who improperly escalated to the point of taking me completely out of the round with the help of another marine, who pulled off my ID. I still hold myself to the fact that I did nothing wrong other than leave the server assuming my adminhelps had been ignored.

[Feweh]

This is resolved