Metarushing Vs. Being Robust.

[Gnorse]

Before I start, I'll just mention that this has nothing to do with the recent Symb/SLC Drama.

with that out of the way, We all know that xenos get stronger as time goes on (Upgrades) while Marines get weaker (*cough* Req nerf *cough*).
What I want to know is at which point is pushing your time advantage as a marine turned into Metarushing ?

[NethIafins]

At the same point as "winning" became synonymous with "having fun"

[Weaselburg]

As a Bravo marine, I can't say much about metarushing. HOWEVER, as a Beno, if you have a competent queen, she will make sure only matures go to battle unless absolutly nessecary. That said, at the end of the round you have a huge tide of mature/young beno running around the FOB, which usually works pretty well. But even then they have mature t3 support, so thats all I got for the day.

[spheretech]

For some of us, winning is fun. I mean it really makes sense, becuase if you're losing, marines are dying. Dying=not fun. Some people like to say play for the "story", but honestly, instadying to boiler gas because you never rushed the 3 boilers spamming the front line is not a fun story for me! I prefer the winning "story" over the losing. Sure losing can be fun. If you don't die on the planet like 80% of the marine force does...
edit: forgot to say this was in response to NethIafins

[HKO20006]

A Prison round today, Delta and Charlie robusted (and an OB) the hive at VIP then in Civ, while Bravo and Alpha sit in Cateen and FOB. Still, marines are accused of metarushing. (from a ghost perspective after xenos were pushed out of VIP)

On the other hand, how marine lose is usually because isolated squads got wiped one by one. To avoid being isolated, you need another squad. Though decent/robust two squads will be able to kick some asses and even win the round, then you have metarushing.

So the line between Metarushing Vs. Being Robust is a fine one.

On the other other hand, to win as Xeno, ideally, you want the whole hive working together, like Boiler gas, Queen screech, Crusher charge and tank, Rav/T1/2 drag/kill/capture hosts, essentially the entire Xeno force. But when marines bring up the entire or even half force, then you have metarushing. So to avoid being accused of metarushing, command needs to like sacrificing a squad or two for "scouting". If the hive still lose, then you have metarushing. /s

[Rio]

At the same point as "winning" became synonymous with "having fun"

You can thank the xeno hippie greytiders for that.

When one side has reduced the game to an esport the other side can't afford to roleplay, the fun part about playing spessmen.

[Heckenshutze]

Ironically, symbiosis case is a good example.

Two dumb xenos that guided the whole USCM into their hive.

[Telegnats]

To answer the question, I believe it's been a thing for the entirety of the time that the server has been active. People threw around the accusations of metarushing all the time in Boxstation/Nostromo, but I think we just said 'meta' instead of 'metarushing'.

Suffice to say that no matter what you do, someone will think you're metarushing, and someone else will think you're being robust.

[Sambalu]

The line between Metarushing and being robust can be blurry at times.
I remember a round on prison, where all squads immediately rushed to residental, placed OBs outside of the shutters and fired with maximum offset to the west. That was obviously a metarush.
However xenos slowly leading marines to the hive, while resulting in shitty rounds that end shortly after the 1-hour mark, is own their fault. Marines chasing a single xeno or two accross the entire map from first contact until they arrive at the hive feels a bit meta though.

[Gnorse]

Hey, I'm just saying, But the new update that makes it so that Req prices are increased as more supplies are bought (essentially as time goes on) Kinda encourages marines to try and destroy the hive as soon as possible

[SolarMacharius]

I think the map has to do a lot with whats considered metarushing. Its basically impossible for either side on LV or prison to meta rush because of the timers on those maps. The problem with both those maps is that they are too small (In lvs case) or too linear (in prisons case). LV you know the aliens are going to be in the caves, its just a question of whether the are on the eastern or western side of the caves. On prison, you know exactly where the aliens are going to be one hundred percent of the time, in civilian residences/VIP cell block.

On Big Red and Ice its less clear. The aliens could have moved anywhere and its a toss up on where they are going to be. On Big Red they could be in the South Labs, Lambda, or Viro(don't do this). Ice is so big they could be anywhere, which makes meta rushing basically impossible.

There is also the issue of not setting up forward hives that leads to locations being discovered. If you drag a marine with a helmet across the entire map and his light is activated, do not be surprised if his SO takes note of where on the map he is being dragged to via helmet cam. I have discovered the location of the Queen this way before, and its because no forward nest with eggs was set up. Its a bit riskier to have the infected closer to the front, but it reduces the chance of your main hive being discovered. Sometimes its not even helmet cam, its aliens running all the way back to the hive instead of dropping back and healing on weeds. Its pretty easy to be lead to the hive if you don't juke the marines by going a different direction.

As far as I am concerned, if the marines stomped its because they played well, not because they exploited the game or cheated or whatever other ridiculous accusations get thrown at them. The xenos are specifically balanced to be better so they can win more, its their fault if they can't manage to do that by employing basic communication and leadership skills.

[HKO20006]

Yup, Xeno not expanding their hive/no outpost is one of the problem.
No weed/resin structures outside hive -> marines meet little resistance all the way -> heavy contact at the hive's doorstep -> reinforcements -> metarush.

[WinterClould]

So as OP said, there is a problem with xenos getting stronger and marines only getting weaker as the round goes on.

Marines aren't forced, but are clearly encouraged to engage and destroy the xenos rapidly before they can get older and stronger.
Xenos are encouraged to delay so they can get old enough or grow enough numbers to stomp the marines.

This is a balance problem and not a player problem. If you don't want the marines to feel pressured to kill as quick as they can don't punish them for not doing it.

I think there was a suggestion on the gitlab that had a potential fix to this.
Make young and mature xenos stronger, while making Ancient and Elite xenos a little weaker then they are now. This is allow early xenos to be a threat capable of defending themselves early in the round while also not punishing marines to bad for not killing xenos before they became unstoppable murder machines.

[QuackingFlack]

So as OP said, there is a problem with xenos getting stronger and marines only getting weaker as the round goes on.

Marines aren't forced, but are clearly encouraged to engage and destroy the xenos rapidly before they can get older and stronger.
Xenos are encouraged to delay so they can get old enough or grow enough numbers to stomp the marines.

This is a balance problem and not a player problem. If you don't want the marines to feel pressured to kill as quick as they can don't punish them for not doing it.

I think there was a suggestion on the gitlab that had a potential fix to this.
Make young and mature xenos stronger, while making Ancient and Elite xenos a little weaker then they are now. This is allow early xenos to be a threat capable of defending themselves early in the round while also not punishing marines to bad for not killing xenos before they became unstoppable murder machines.

+1 for this. When you have four Marines with AP ammo and a smartgunner shooting one xeno who can just run back like 6 tiles and heal fully shit gets twisted. There's no RP that can take place like this because if anyone in your fire-team even makes one mistake the line will falter and you will all die. Marines have limited ammo and we tend to run out pretty fast of the important crap like this.

[Thatnewguy1]

Marines do get a passive increase in strength when it comes to req. being able to churn out more mines, sentries, mortars, or variants of firearms like the HPR. Not as powerful of a boost as the Xenos upgrading but can help at crucial times.

[Surrealistik]

Marines do get a passive increase in strength when it comes to req. being able to churn out more mines, sentries, mortars, or variants of firearms like the HPR. Not as powerful of a boost as the Xenos upgrading but can help at crucial times.

No.

Time is unambiguously the enemy of marines, and this has been painfully reinforced by recent disastrous changes to Req which have made key staples like metal scarce, going on scarcer as time passes due to the incrementing price increases; marine supplies simply cannot keep up with the rate of depletion, or the xeno upgrades/evos.

Marines are all but forced into being ultra aggressive, because if they're not, they will invariably lose by attrition as every injury that requires Medvac results in at least a 20 minute delay before redeployment (sometimes up to an hour or more), and their supplies eventually get prohibitively expensive while xenos only end up being stronger than ever, nevermind resources that are invariably lost in the field, sometimes in huge amounts, like barricades, supply crates and bags that have to be abandoned. This is why blitzkrieging is by far and large the best strategy as a marine, and being a turtling, camping, defensive little bitch hiding behind advantageous terrain, sticky resin, hugger traps and thick resin walls (bonus points if you do it in areas impervious to OB/CAS) as you slowly but surely grind out marine losses is by far the best strategy as xeno.

[Slywater]

Surely you need a reason to rush (ie. orders). If you're spreading out early-round, your entire force isn't going to coincidentally fall into a hive. Usually it's quite obvious when you know where the xenos are.

[Renomaki]

This is why blitzkrieging is by far and large the best strategy as a marine, and being a turtling, camping, defensive little bitch hiding behind advantageous terrain, sticky resin, hugger traps and thick resin walls (bonus points if you do it in areas impervious to OB/CAS) as you slowly but surely grind out marine losses is by far the best strategy as xeno.

The thing is, it isn't very good RP to have marines Blitzing an enemy they have no knowledge about.

As we all know, marines have no idea what they are up against when going planetside. They go down, they set up camp, they conduct operations for the day. When they go down, they shouldn't be expecting to face xenos, and when the xenos finally arrive, they shouldn't throw EVERYTHING AT THEM right on the dot.

It would be like people calling in S.W.A.T. Teams to barge into someone's house because they saw an Arab with a cardboard box walk inside. Going some 0 to 100 without a logical reason is pretty poor RP.

Again, when you first come across the xenomorphs, they are nothing more than some local pesky wildlife, not the main threat. You are there expecting something along the lines of raiders, CLF, maybe even UPP trying to expand their borders. The xenomorphs are just random animals that get in the way.

I'm the kind of guy that likes to keep a certain pace, you know? You start with the setup phase, then you do some recon/patrol, then skirmish, then finally either a full out assault with whatever manpower you have, or you man the defenses and hold them off until you can rally together for a push. You can't just jump right to the assault phase right off the bat.

But then, that is just me. I like extended fights, not steamrolls.

[ExGame]

There is really not a lot that makes marines want to not destroy the hive as soon as possible, it's interesting, because in the past it used to be that marines always turtled and the devs tried to make changes to have marines get out of the FOB. Xenos excel in a war of attrition, and almost everyone knows that. That means that setting up bases, outposts, FOBs and then getting besieged is the obviously inferior option. The recent update with cargo prices meant that not only did FOB supplies get more expensive, they get even more expensive the more supplies get used or/and the longer a round takes, which makes marines want to end the round ASAP.

The robust marines know that a FOB defence will never hold for a long time, so why would you want to spend your time on that if you could go on a blitzkrieg and with enough robust marines win the round? One might argue that this is another case of "only playing to win", but there are people that think exactly like that which contribute to it and there's not a lot that will change their mind. Now we could of course nerf offensive capabillities of the marines, but that would leave marines with nothing to do but early evacuation since now they're not only bad at defending, they're also bad at attacking.

And yes, some of those blitzkriegs are meta, but it takes a long time to figure out what is and what is not meta as seen by a recent staff report.

EDIT1: There are a few solutions that I could bring up that also includes making blitzkrieg less viable.

• Upgrading as a xeno is based on something else than time (kills?).
• Speed up the process of healing for marines (more autodocs, improved medevac?)
• LV-624 like fog
• Buff defensive capabilities of marines. (cheaper FOB/defense equipment, marine "sticky resin", better defense equipment?)

In the end, having the round last a bit longer without having marines cripple away opens more ways to RP on the ground.
/EDIT1

[Surrealistik]

There is really not a lot that makes marines want to not destroy the hive as soon as possible, it's interesting, because in the past it used to be that marines always turtled and the devs tried to make changes to have marines get out of the FOB. Xenos excel in a war of attrition, and almost everyone knows that. That means that setting up bases, outposts, FOBs and then getting besieged is the obviously inferior option. The recent update with cargo prices meant that not only did FOB supplies get more expensive, they get even more expensive the more supplies get used or/and the longer a round takes, which makes marines want to end the round ASAP.

The robust marines know that a FOB defence will never hold for a long time, so why would you want to spend your time on that if you could go on a blitzkrieg and with enough robust marines win the round? One might argue that this is another case of "only playing to win", but there are people that think exactly like that which contribute to it and there's not a lot that will change their mind. Now we could of course nerf offensive capabillities of the marines, but that would leave marines with nothing to do but early evacuation since now they're not only bad at defending, they're also bad at attacking.

And yes, some of those blitzkriegs are meta, but it takes a long time to figure out what is and what is not meta as seen by a recent staff report.

When you deliberately engineer literally everything about your mechanics to strongly encourage and favour a certain playstyle to the point where it's essentially nigh mandatory unless you want to straight up lose, don't be too surprised when that playstyle becomes an entrenched meta; people respond to incentives.

[YourGuts]

So I haven't been playing as long as others here, only since about the start of 2016. But what I've noticed isn't an issue between like, meta-rushing and robust players; but the fact that this server is advertised and conducted as a y'know, medium-heavy roleplay server, one expects to roleplay. However, I've seen several players complaining in dead-chat or OOC, that say, the CO was roleplaying as marines were dying (for one example), as if there's some sort of stigma towards it. Now, I understand their perspective, roleplay, from the standpoint of winning a round, achieves literally nothing. But, the contention there is that the marines to an extent do need to roleplay with each other, and I hope at least that some actively want to. The aliens on the other hand, well, they don't have to roleplay, there's no need and little point for them to do so, it's literally just a straight up frag fest. Which is yet another advantage they have over the marines. There is jack squat you can do about that. I'm not sure if it's nostalgia, but there seems to be an influx of players I dunno, shouting "HELP INTENT RETART" in IC chat, things like that. It's all a bit blurgh. Not to say the quality of the roleplay has declined, but it feels like far less people are willing to engage in it. No shade toward Xenos players, I love and respect you all.

In conclusion, I feel like things are devolving toward an EPIC | 24/7 | TDM | server. I also echo the opinions voiced above, it's extremely difficult to moderate and judge whether it was a meta-rush or being r o b u s t, however, I feel it could also be prudent to apply the same sort of scrutiny to the xenos side of things. As they are depicted, at least the Queen is, as sentient creatures. Therefore, would they not also have some similar hesitation and skepticism toward the marine forces? You could counter that argument by saying, "Well the xenos have been fighting and killing humans for years," valid. But in the lore, from what I understand (correct me if I'm wrong), that the USCM has also encountered other forms of alien life? And would as such have some sort of familiarity with engaging? I dunno.