Time to downsize?

Renomaki · Post by **Renomaki** » 17 Mar 2018, 22:53

With the still somewhat recent update to cargo that limits how much of a single item we can order before the costs become excessive, I think maybe it is time we start thinking about reworking our old defenses.

Back in ye old days, metal was cheap as dirt (or before that, you could print stack after stack for FREE), meaning engineers would often have more metal than they knew what to do with. Hell, there were too many rounds where we ended up with hundreds and hundreds of wasted sheets of metal because most engineers didn't even know what to do with all that extra metal (or were too lazy to keep building after a certain point in the round).

The metal that would get used would often be used to make excessive, massive superfortresses that couldn't be properly manned and defended, with xenos often being able to exploit weaknesses in the design due to there often not being enough eyes to keep watch on things. Hell, Big Red is the best example of this, where attacks from the north almost always crush whatever massive defense the marines set up, wasting hundreds and HUNDREDS of cargo points in the process. Massive Nexus FoBs are another example, which have an interesting habit of having a weak southern flank.

Of course, despite how often massive fortresses didn't really work, marines kept building them anyways because "it's cheap, why not?"

Welp, not anymore. Now cargo inflation is a thing, where buying the same item over and over again gets more expensive over time. Which means that getting 500 metal sheets is not going to happen anymore if cargo wants to have money on the side to order other things, such as ammo and medical supplies.

So now we have to consider changing how we build outposts and FoBs. We can't make megaforts without causing strain to cargo's budget, so we need to think about "downsizing" a tad, to save points.

The question is... How?

I myself am still attempting to perfect my "pillbox" designs, and in a recent round managed to find success in a very small box setup inside of Medbay during a round of LV, which one marine fell in love with due to how he was able to hold off countless xenos all by himself within it. While they could be weak against boilers without proper preparation for such attacks, they are much more cost efficient, reliable and study than the massive defenses most engineers focus on building. However, this only can only do so much.

So, how would other engineers handle the fact that building supplies are not going to come as often as they used to?

Forst · Post by **Forst** » 17 Mar 2018, 23:04

Start assigning a few marines some wrenches and crowbars, and have them dismantle anything that isn't nailed down.

Surrealistik · Post by **Surrealistik** » 17 Mar 2018, 23:05

Renomaki wrote: ↑
17 Mar 2018, 22:53
So, how would other engineers handle the fact that building supplies are not going to come as often as they used to?

Play Xeno and thrash marines with my completely unlimited, fast building thick resin walls until this change is reverted.

TheMaskedMan2 · Post by **TheMaskedMan2** » 17 Mar 2018, 23:08

Super-fortresses were overrated anyways. Any Xeno Hive with a brain. (Which actually is less common than you'd think... but the point still stands.) Would usually find a flank or weak point and exploit that. Row after row of barricades and hell all wasted on a massive FOB. There's no point to it.

I really believe the meta of "Super-FOBs" needs to die with limited metal like this. A massive defense is not a good offense, and Engineers should work on constructing a secure, decently defended FOB. Nothing massive. Then use the rest of the metal for frontline barricades. You don't need to fortify the entire map and paths to the frontline. Just little mini FOBs, much like Reno's "Pillbox" idea, or something as simple as blocking off Xeno tunnels and hive locations. Build these barricades as you move up, in a way that they can be used offensively, instead of wasted on a massive fortress that is never even used.

Surrealistik · Post by **Surrealistik** » 17 Mar 2018, 23:14

It's not that there's no metal for super forts, it's that there's inadequate metal for essentials like a well (not excessively) defended FOB + push bases + barricade replacement due to wear/attrition.

solidfury7 · Post by **solidfury7** » 17 Mar 2018, 23:30

I really dislike the changes, I understand why they did it, but I think it's a misguided change, it COULD be viable for stuff like ammo and explosives.

However as a Commander, SL and a Xeno, I understand that one xeno can destroy a full FOB/outpost/checkpoint extremely easy.

All people will do now is put everything IN to the super FOB, mini outposts are just not worth the essential metal anymore.

Renomaki · Post by **Renomaki** » 17 Mar 2018, 23:39

I think we'll start seeing a lot more sandbag usage to make up for the lack of metal. Heck, we might even end up with FoBs that are mostly just sandbags.

Sure, it takes time to shovel, but once the bags are full, you can nearly instantly plop them down, they are stronger than metal, and can easily be taken apart and moved.

If people aren't willing to reduce the amount of metal put into building outposts and FoBs, then they are going to have to get ready to do a lot of shoveling. I myself personally like sandbags more than metal barricades, honestly.

Either that or we finally get that sweet update that allows us to build proper trenches in LV and Red, just like how we can do that on Ice.

Mann handle · Post by **Mann handle** » 17 Mar 2018, 23:47

I don't think a general downsize is needed so to speak but a few smaller things that need to come about, sure the prices are complete ass for some maps but think about all the Big Red FoBs that had layer after layer of what would mostly be wasted material due to the fact that xenos could only break through after seriously incapacitating the marines rather than over coming the defenses (that or a Tcomms flank). In this instance engineers should be a little more sparing of material and stop building four layer fortresses with the total amount of space being something of a crawl space. Still these updates were rather misguided for the most part.

Engineers should also adapt and stop asking for metal non stop, sure it's easier to use and transport but supplementing the cost of metal with sandbags would help alleviate some of the massive chokehold that cargo is suffering right now. Also marines and engineers should work together whether it be sandbag duty or reclamation tasks such as dismantling chairs and tables for metal.

Also I've noticed that command is not actually planning about materials and requisition points, they just ask for a shopping list of things and hope they can get it all in some cases not taking no for an answer. Staff need to learn that after 2 mortar crates we'll be so dry that getting metal up as well is a pipe dream. Also they keep asking for the same old shopping list including; Metal / plasteel, AP ammo, Spec ammo even when the spec who is asking for it STILL has half of his ammo anyway, Mortar ammo (when you have a round where it's actually getting used quite well). They need to learn that sandbags as unwieldy as they are, exist and become more efficient points wise than metal. Specs need to actually use the damn ammo they get before they ask for more. Also AP really doesn't grow on trees any more.

Again I think the req changes were rather heavy handed for an issue mostly related to xenos being either really bald or really shit in the recent weeks. But we should attempt to adapt to the changes (that i'm somewhat enjoying really), the logistical challenge is now there and it's a puzzle we'll have to work out (while dismantling parts of the Almayer for metal to send down). Still, some of the prices are rather insane to start off with, 20 for a stack of metal that will turn into 50 after 10 stacks? While that sounds insane to think you'll buy 10 stacks, it's actually surprisingly common if not somewhat needed in rounds where xenos turtle well and marines are just a little bit unlucky (not bad but unlucky) where xenos actually don't decide to be shit that round and defend well.

One major issue this update has is that prison station is now going to be complete shit when we can't actually provide metal after 30 mins due to the sky rocketing costs

TheMaskedMan2 · Post by **TheMaskedMan2** » 18 Mar 2018, 00:05

Renomaki wrote: ↑
17 Mar 2018, 23:39
I think we'll start seeing a lot more sandbag usage to make up for the lack of metal. Heck, we might even end up with FoBs that are mostly just sandbags.

Sure, it takes time to shovel, but once the bags are full, you can nearly instantly plop them down, they are stronger than metal, and can easily be taken apart and moved.

I'm going to be honest, sandbags are completely tedious. I don't know if it's designed that way on purpose or whatever, but I would honestly not mind if we could just fill 10 up at once with one click, but just make it take 10x as long as it would to individually click. The clicking makes my brain numb.

Also about Prison Station? Honestly, they should just add a little garden or something on the eastern side of the station for Marines to get sand for sandbags from.

Aceluke123 · Post by **Aceluke123** » 18 Mar 2018, 00:26

I haven’t seen what it’s like with prison station’s lack of material usage. How have rounds gone with metal downgrades currently?

Nickvr628 · Post by **Nickvr628** » 18 Mar 2018, 07:48

Filling sandbags is mind numbing, but whatever squad is the first FOB squad can do it. It gives the grunts something to do.

Also, cargo techs can still recycle guns and shit inside their autolaythe for metal, and then eject the sheets. It is a safe bet that nobody will need the literal hundreds of pistols and pistol magazines, you can get thousands of metal from those.

Super FOBs need to die. They are too spread out, always undermanned, and have glaring flaws in their defenses. Small 5x5 mini fobs are so much better, they can be manned by 4 marines effectively, and can hold of Xenos really well. Bill Carson did a decent stalrategy where he sent each squad to a different location to build a small FOB, and rotated us through each one. It ensured we always had defensive positions to fall back on, and also split the xeno’s attack between several locations.

Solarmare · Post by **Solarmare** » 18 Mar 2018, 12:07

Large FOB'S never really did a thing other than make a Xeno offense take longer than it should have, and a breach in it is basically the end of one anyway.

A minimum needs to be placed on them, the rest on what actually aids on offense where points matters.

Mann handle · Post by **Mann handle** » 18 Mar 2018, 20:13

Right let's add to this a little, it's a little off topic in spots but I have some numbers from a relatively long game where marines won on LV. It was last round even, lasted over 2.5 hours. I did run cargo solo for a while after the other two starters went SSD within the first 40 mins so I'm fairly sure that all the orders are here.

► Show Spoiler

The prices for boxes when the orders stopped coming in came to;

► Show Spoiler

Now if you totted up the whole of the first spoiler which was the complete audit for the ships orders you get

► Show Spoiler

Now for the conditions of the FOBs and how marines spent all that AP I have no idea, but we did win the long battle for LV doing so and incuring rather big loses doing so. Things I noticed in that round was that Command rarly speaks to Req, so req is often behind with the orders needed. You also have the fact that cargo techs have such tiny as fuck text that command will not see unless they are sharp that round which would either delay orders or have command forget there is someone still in cargo when the RO is not around. Costs spike in an extreme manner, Metal started at 20 goes to 21 -> 23 -> 25 and then after that it rockets upwards. I did however offset this with the fact that I was getting all my crates back that round so I could completely capitalize on the returns.

In short, if the marines want to win rounds, even with the req costs.
Most of it relies on a command who plans accordingly and squads who make do with what they have and are willing to find substitutes for things they can't have (same for command as well). It also relies on cargo getting back ALL of the crates it sends down.

Now what does that have to do with FOBs? Well supplementation of metal for sandbags or salvaging of metal. Actively defending the defenses they do have currently. Better planning for more compact FOBs.

Kesserline · Post by **Kesserline** » 19 Mar 2018, 05:16

I abandonned RO role due to this update.

Several reasons :

- FOBs are always made on a fortress basis (I dislike that, but retarded engineers keep doing them). One or two layers max of FOB, with smart chokepoints defended is more cost-effective than the 18 layers that the Engineers keep trying to do. (For example on Prison, if you defend Tcomms by guarding the north-sec locker, you have a crossfiring position for your south FOB, and it requires less metal, and also you protect comms, but unless it's me or Dolth as engineers NONE will fortify this area.) Usually, you have to spit at least 200 metals to make the engineers stop crying for your demotion, now it means around 80 points. 80 points. 80 POINTS.

- Req is like PFCs, their points are their ammo. Basically, if you increase the cost of EVERYTHING for them, you limit their "ammo" therefore, their margin of freedom, therefore, the interest in playing those roles.

- Req had several "metas" varying between personnalities : full supportive (not wasting a single point on bullshit, just answering squad orders and supplying them like it's raining points) to full crazy (going with wide amounts of points delivered by RO on a "personal" strategy, like APRs, HPRs, and shits that make you look like Santa Claus).

- The current req system, with the cost increase, FORCES the marine to make a blitzkrieg war before the attrition FORCES them to retreat before the Xenos do. Yep. You read it well. Depending on the demand groundside and the waste caused by baldies/cunts/retarded, Req crew will be willing to sell their souls for a few points more, at one hour mark post deployment.

If the metarushing is harshly punished, but, on the other hand, you punish marines for being agressive (with is the only reliable way for the USCM to win), then, don't bother deploying groundside. (The "metarushing" notion needs to be seriously displayed and explained, because some Xenos keep crying "METARUSHING" while they are the cause of marines being led to the Hive).

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If you can't have a single margin of freedom, you just have an ultra boring shipside role, unless it was intended to look like Engineering department, which is either fusionned to fix reactors non-stop, or doing shenanigans because nothing to do while waiting for reactors to breakdown again.

I will make a suggestion on Gitlab to give an opportunity for serious ROs to have incentive, and bald ROs to still being punished.

misto · Post by **misto** » 19 Mar 2018, 05:30

the funniest fobs were on ice colony when clueless engis who didnt know the map made 50 layers of cades in the metal plating place west of the lz and south of the hangar, you know the place. then maybe one or two layers guarding the north pass into the LZ, and completely neglecting the NE pass into the LZ. delicioso

point is, barricades were rarely ever a critical deciding factor outside of perfect chokepoints like the SD room and now they're even further neutered by becoming rapidly overpriced

Surrealistik · Post by **Surrealistik** » 19 Mar 2018, 05:34

misto wrote: ↑
19 Mar 2018, 05:30
the funniest fobs were on ice colony when clueless engis who didnt know the map made 50 layers of cades in the metal plating place west of the lz and south of the hangar, you know the place. then maybe one or two layers guarding the north pass into the LZ, and completely neglecting the NE pass into the LZ. delicioso

point is, barricades were rarely ever a critical deciding factor outside of perfect chokepoints like the SD room and now they're even further neutered by becoming rapidly overpriced

Wrong.

Barricades are critical as they're needed for the push bases to triage/medvac/rally/regroup/resupply that make a sustained marine offensive possible barring a terrible Beano defense that crumbles the moment it gets hit by a marine murderball.

Currently you're lucky to have anywhere near enough materials left after setting up a reasonable FOB for the leap frogging push bases you need to upkeep such a sustained offense, and that's assuming no material losses due to Beanos.

misto · Post by **misto** » 19 Mar 2018, 05:50

leap frogging push bases were constantly decimated by acid puke the moment anyone blinked, if the engi hadn't been FFd or slashed into submission before then. this price rise cost is a solution to a problem that wasn't there

Kesserline · Post by **Kesserline** » 19 Mar 2018, 05:53

Totally agree with Sur.

Many times, I ordered some light fortifications, even a simple 3 tiles, one layer cade pointing to the most obvious counter-attack direction. Many times, this simple 3 tiles or even 2 tiles cade allowed to hold, and even crush the counter attack. (Place a HMG, or some gudshit marines, and you'll see the results).

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Most of the time, an offensive cannot be from 100% on a steady pace. You have blitzkriegs, but you can't blitzkrieg all the way from LZ1 to the Hive (non-counting the metarushing).

You can only make short offensives, otherwise, you are heavily overextending and ANY solid counter-offensives from the Xenos will BREAK and PUSH you back from all the "ground" you gained.

Unless you SECURE the ground gained by the means of small fortifications or outpost, you can be repelled from Lambda to LZ1 in a single maneuver from Xenos.

Beiler · Post by **Beiler** » 19 Mar 2018, 08:57

MARINES DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW CADES WORK.
STILL.
Marines hugging the 'cades makes me depressed.
...
Besides that, I agree with the main topic at hand.
There's absolutely no reason ANY materials found, ordered or brought should be wasted on anything other than essentials. I see plenty of people attempting to build cades along the entire front. Areas like the walkway from the Nexus to Hydro are spam-caded without reason frequently, and it leads to major xeno victories when the material that could've been used on defense is now nothing more than scrap.
On top of that, why waste the sandbags or metal on a rearward defense when the cade could instead be used for pushes and spit protection?

edda · Post by **edda** » 19 Mar 2018, 11:20

The biggest killer from the Req changes is that it's hard to fortify Nexus-Hydro on LV now.

Simo94 · Post by **Simo94** » 19 Mar 2018, 11:39

Nexus was never a good FOB place really, I mean if you have to defend FOUR flanks in an FOB you may aswell make it out in the open

Nickvr628 · Post by **Nickvr628** » 19 Mar 2018, 12:08

Honestly Hydro makes a really good FOB, you just need to ensure you defend it and can move supplies and fresh marines back and forth to it.

Kesserline · Post by **Kesserline** » 19 Mar 2018, 12:18

Nickvr628 wrote: ↑
19 Mar 2018, 12:08
Honestly Hydro makes a really good FOB, you just need to ensure you defend it and can move supplies and fresh marines back and forth to it.

I agree.

The most decent locations to fortify are LZ1/Nexus/Hydro, so as to have firing bases until the frontline.

But they are firingbases more than true FOBs, they are still pretty hard to defend against a full scale offensive from the Hive.

Several COs tried other metas, like LZ2 FOB, or even the Cargo FOB, it didn't work that well everytime.

Nickvr628 · Post by **Nickvr628** » 19 Mar 2018, 13:14

I am waiting for a Commander to demand the FOB be at lambada labs.

Bonus points if he makes it non-meta by giving some legitimate IC reason to doing it.

OCCUPY OBJECTIVE BY FORCE HOO RAH

Iatots · Post by **Iatots** » 21 Mar 2018, 08:33

If it weren't for the sporadic human-vs-human interaction I would suggest decreasing the dismantling time of fortifications. Having to abandon your position for a push and leaving behind 20 barricades feels bad. Even on 3 hours ice rounds the game is too fast paced to have a warning enough in advance to properly retreat from a position.

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