Bill Carson - Attempted BE of a Synth

[spookydonut]

Your Byond Key: spookydonut

Your Character Name: Jane

Accused Byond Key(if known):

Character Name: Bill Carson

Approximate time and date of the incident (Central US Time for fastest results):
roughly 30-40 minutes before this post.

What rule(s) were broken: Low RP.

Description of the incident:
The commander ordered me to spy on the MPs, my reply that I must report illegal orders caused carson to attempt to choke me.
I punched him to release the grip as per my self-preservation directives.
His reply was to start firing his mateba at an immobile, chat indicating synth, hitting me 4 times and drawing the attention of the staff officers.

There is other things that occured with the commander and the MPs prior to this, however they did not directly involve me so I cannot add them to this report.

Evidence (screenshots, logs, etc):

How you would punish the accused: A reminder that as a whitelisted role, the CO is held to a higher standard of roleplay.

[awan]

Well, I was the cmp in this situation and this was quite a round.
The reason the Commander asked the Synth to spy on the mp's was because he was acussing me of insulting him and not doing my job.
Imo Neglect is one of the only crimes a cmp would ever be able to commit without it being an ooc rule violation.
Because a bad cmp can be following all other rules and still be bad. And neglect is very broad.
The reason he accused me of neglect was because I wrote 1/15 (love) letters.

► Show Spoiler

(Note: https://pastebin.com/WyCT1ZBD all of them had a diffrent name on it.)

I do realize 15 is a bit much and not many men juggle 15 females.
The love letters were written because the CL had given me permission to send personal messages using his fax machine and W-Y would deliver them. (we discussed it I do not think he actualy send a letter)
The Commander considered this neglect and we had a discussion about it ic.
He ordered an other mp to arrest me and I told the other mp that I have ultimate authority in all law matters. I did not resist in any way and was brought to the brig.
Once there USCM Command was faxed and they told the mp's to arrest the Commander for False arrest. He reacted by outing my lover letter to the entire crew. (Dick move)
The commander was arrested and send this fax back.

► Show Spoiler

https://pastebin.com/mHSFP1jA

(this is also a transcript of the conversation we had)
After this he ordered the synth to spy on me and spooky his stuff happened.
There might be 1 or 5 things missing.

Also I got into quite a position because the Commander was fucking around with me but I am quite restricted by what I can do back at him.

[Tisx]

Logs

► Show Spoiler

[13:27:54]SAY: Bill Carson/Fitchace : JANE
[13:28:10]WHISPER: Bill Carson/Fitchace : you are going to be my spy and infilitrate the CMP
[13:28:17]WHISPER: Bill Carson/Fitchace : I want you to find out what he's thinking
[13:28:34]SAY: Jane/Spookydonut : I cannot break marine law or interfere with military police matters
[13:28:38]WHISPER: Bill Carson/Fitchace :
[13:28:42]WHISPER: Bill Carson/Fitchace : YOUR FUCKING OBSERVING
[13:29:01]SAY: Jane/Spookydonut : I am programmed to report illegal orders
[13:29:09]SAY: Bill Carson/Fitchace : STUPID FUCKING ROBOT PEIC EOF SHIT
[13:29:23]ATTACK: Fitchace/(Bill Carson) grabbed the neck of Spookydonut/(Jane)
[13:29:28]ATTACK: Fitchace/(Bill Carson) strangled (kill intent) Spookydonut/(Jane)
[13:29:29]SAY: Jane/Spookydonut : What are you doing?
[13:29:33]ATTACK: Spookydonut/(Jane) punched Fitchace/(Bill Carson)
[13:29:34]SAY: Bill Carson/Fitchace : Stand still
[13:29:35]ATTACK: Spookydonut/(Jane) punched Fitchace/(Bill Carson)
[13:29:38]ATTACK: Spookydonut/(Jane) busted Fitchace/(Bill Carson)
[13:30:53]ATTACK: Bill Carson (fitchace) shot Jane (spookydonut) with a high-impact revolver bullet in the Almayer Combat Information Center
[13:30:54]ATTACK: Bill Carson (fitchace) shot Jane (spookydonut) with a high-impact revolver bullet in the Almayer Combat Information Center
[13:30:58]ATTACK: Bill Carson (fitchace) shot Jane (spookydonut) with a high-impact revolver bullet in the Almayer Combat Information Center
[13:30:58]ATTACK: Bill Carson (fitchace) shot Jane (spookydonut) with a high-impact revolver bullet in the Almayer Combat Information Center
[13:31:12]SAY: Bill Carson/Fitchace : THE FUCKING
[13:31:16]SAY: Jane/Spookydonut : Why are you shooting me?
[13:31:16]SAY: Bill Carson/Fitchace : SYNTH H URT ME
[13:31:34]SAY: Bill Carson/Fitchace : IT BASHED ME
[13:31:40]SAY: Jane/Spookydonut : You triggered my self preservation procedures when you attempted to damage my neck

[Fitchace]

Just because your talking while I shoot you for punching me doesn't mean its low RP.

In character, Bill Carson was very stressed as he just spent some time in the brig.

I wanted you to spy on the CMP, just observe. I wasn't asking you to interfere or anything, it was not an illegal order. You said no and you will now report me, so I decided to choke you which literally causes no damage to you. Then you punch me, and synthetic punches hurt a lot more than a human punch.

So I shot you.

I wanted you to spy and observe the CMP and report back to see what his actions and plans are.

USCM Programming -
All USCM Synthetics are built with a 100% understanding and adherence to Marine Law. They are unable to break Marine Law. Also, a Synthetic must follow orders from USCM Command provided it does not conflict with Marine Law. Should USCM Command believe their Synthetic faulty, they may file a report to USCM High Command and the Synthetic could be remotely decommissioned. A Synthetic would also never second-guess an order from a command figure provided it causes no conflict with Marine Law or their own self-preservation. However, Synthetics are not slaves to all humans and would not take orders from non-Command personnel, nor would they circumvent emergencies to prioritize a simple order. (ie; If the CO ordered you to clean the hangar, you’d follow that order with no question but would stop to assist a wounded Marine in the hangar and return to cleaning after.)

I feel like you did go against the synthetic programming for telling the Commander it would break marine law to spy on the CMP.

[Omicega]

I was an observer for the round in question.

Just as the synth guidelines are somewhat vague about what is and isn't permitted, what level of prioritisation self-preservation should be given, and a lot of other things besides, the CO guidelines with regards BEs are just as lax if not even more so. To the best of my knowledge or ability to look I can't find anything that suggests BEing a synthetic is formally against the rules/Marine Law or in any way unlawful other than being a bad or unusual thing to have happen. If you class the synthetic as a person, then the BE is lawful by virtue of it acting like any other BE. If the synthetic is meant to be a thing it is a little muddier, but in my view this only gives her/it less rights than it would have under the other scenario and frankly if he wants to blow its head off when it can always be fixed anyway, where exactly is the problem?

This whole scenario is a muddy mess because we have two nebulous sets of guidelines clashing with each other. You could argue that Spooky caused significant harm (three synth punches are nothing to write off, they hit like predators) back after not actually being hurt at all in the first place (if what Carson says is true and a chokehold does nothing at all to a synth except immobilise them). My personal opinion, which doesn't really count for anything, is that allowing synthetics to place self-preservation over following a lawful order is a very dangerous precedent to set, aside from being able to dodge the obvious dumb loophole of an aCO telling a synth to kill itself as a form of griefing (which should fall under rule 0 anyway). This is a quick way to open the floodgates for abuse, as I see it.

I am surprised and a little disappointed this report was made in the first place, as it was posted more or less immediately after the round in question. These kinds of reactionary, immediate, knee-jerk reports are never as well thought out as they should be and that makes an already awkward situation even more hard to get one's head around. Spooky didn't even include anything under the evidence section, which to me speaks volumes about this report being rushed out as a form of stress relief and/or venting frustration rather than a genuine attempt at rectifying an OOC issue.

[spookydonut]

I.had been informed the managers had already pulled the logs 20 minutes before this report and were reviewing them. I made this report mostly for transparency of that process.

Additionally it is well established that synths do place self preservation over orders.

I had read the fax that the CO would be removed from command if they interfered with MP matters again so I would say asking the synth to spy on the CMP to see if they are doing their job correctly counts as an illegal order at that point.

[apophis775]

This whole situation seems like a clusterfuck:


1. The order by the commander was LAWFUL. He did not say to interfere, he said to observe and get into the mindset.
2. Choking a synth and then shooting him when he resists is stupid. If you are going to BE someone and they FIGURE IT OUT there's a good chance they'll resist, especially if you start harming them directly. So, there's no reason to complain about a synth that hits you in the fact if you are literally trying to break it.
3. I'm disappointed that this was caused by Love Letters from a STAFF MEMBER playing as a CMP.


I'm going to be discussing this whole situation with the managers to see just how it got to this point, because this entire situation is more than a little childish.

[awan]

3. I'm disappointed that this was caused by Love Letters from a STAFF MEMBER playing as a CMP.

My apologies. The intention was to rp mostly with the CL at first. And I also am of opinion it was not caused by this. But that any excuse would have done.
I was quite sure the only reason he wanted to brig me was because of my fax to provost about the commander ordering all his SO to set one marine to arrest for insubordination. (He did not care who even if they were dead.)

I'm going to be discussing this whole situation with the managers to see just how it got to this point, because this entire situation is more than a little childish.

There is a valid point to be made that Carson would have been upset with the fax to provost that I told him about. And that he would have been looking for any reason to brig me.

Also, I want to make clear that I as a player had almost no issues with what happened this round. And that most of the interactions between me and Carson were considered ic by me. The mp's did make some mistakes but nothing I was to bothered with.

[Emeraldblood]

This has been under discussion and will be resolved shortly. Sorry for the slow update regarding that.

[Emeraldblood]

Alright, so Carson's orders to the Synth were completely valid and the Synthetic refusing to follow them is on them. The actions of choking the Synth are questionable, but given the current RP situation of it's acceptable. The action of the synth fighting back and shooting them are both IC given the past events. For the CMP, sending love letters over the fax is not the best use of their time and not something that should be promoted as a central round theme. While this has been under discussion with the heads for a few days now, here are the following actions that will be taking for the three main players:
Spookydonut and Awan will both be having serious discussions with their respected heads (and possibly Apop, should he have anything to directly add), though no direct punishments will be given for this report.
Fitchace will not be receiving any punishments, as no rules were broken for his part.
Resolved.