Spaghetti's Med Bay Ban Appeal Electric Boogaloo Part 1

BobatNight · Post by **BobatNight** » 28 Apr 2018, 16:23

Your Byond ID:
bobatnight
Character Name:
Sal 'Spaghetti' Spanelli
Type Of Ban (Job-ban (include the job), Timed Ban, Permaban):

Admin who banned you (if known):
Awan
Total Ban Duration:
1440 Minutes, Medical Job ban
Remaining Duration:
Full
What other servers do you play on?
Oracle, Aurora
Are you now or have you been banned on any servers? Which ones?
Nope
Reason for ban (If you have a Permaban, it should be the EXACT MESSAGE YOU GET WHEN YOU LOGIN with the Error code that looks like this: X##XXX##. If you do not provide this EXACTLY you can't be unbanned):
Not appealing the 24 hour ban for IC in OOC. Medical Job Ban appeal only.
Link to previous appeals for the same ban (if applicable):

Your appeal, including evidence (screenshots, etc): Was accused of self-antag multiple times over the course of my time on CM. I don't see it that way, I see myself as a valued Med Bay player.
I also disagree with staff's views on self-antag and escalation of force in most if not all examples of my notes given for roleplayed situations.
An example would be me dropping a grenade to escape a PO who took it upon himself to try and subdue me, his method was firing a Mod 88 Pistol at me and chasing me around the upper-deck.
Another example would be firing at a MP in research after exhausting all other options to contain the situation, verbal/pushes/stuns.
At no time have I ever tried to kill the other player or disable their abilities to participate in the round any further.
The last example was the past round where a RO and CT assaulted myself and stole Diamonds that a PFC had given me. I was in a sort of communication with staff who replied to my prayers at one time regarding the Diamonds, less than 1 minute after the Prayer reply I prayed again to say the diamonds had been stolen and I was going after the RO. The RO knew exactly what was going on when I returned and attempted to knock me over when I managed to chloral both the CT and RO, I drug the RO out into the hallways and used her to open Cargo's doors. Before I could search her person for the stolen Diamonds I was chased by MPs, during this time myself and the CT had an exchange over the comms. Only when I was captured did Awan contact me about the 'kidnapping'. There's a great deal of discussion here on what constitutes a lethal, Chloral Hydrate, AS DEFINED BY CM'S GUIDE, IS A SEDATIVE.
As far as self-antagging goes, I cannot find any rules in relation to it besides Predator and CL. I'm also not sure in what world someone wouldn't retaliate after being robbed and assaulted, unfortunately it seems staff believe no reasonable person would ever take matters into their own hands. Even going so far as to say that MPs MUST be contacted, this is nowhere in your rule set either.
I believe the rules are applied loosely and without any real standard, and situations that're clearly being handled ICly are then brought out to OOC for no apparent reason. I'm not sure if this is due to meta-buddies within the community and staff, or there's a layer of favoritism given to some older community members. (CO's executing cats, Meta-Family relations between CL/CMP, MTs routinely perma-brigged for their ridiculous actions.) Another issue might be Trial-Mods or other junior staff being to eager to apply punishments and notes in order to boost their standing or appear active as a Staff member.
Not once in any of these instances was a player killed or their ability to participate in the round removed, every situation could and should have been left to be handled ICly as it was in every instance being dealt with ICly.
I'm not entirely sure the level of linear play round-to-round that CM is hoping for, personal freedom and choice should be encouraged in a roleplaying server, not discouraged. None of these instances were without provocation or a reasonable reason.
I don't see the Medical Job ban as reasonable, there's been few and far between instances of 'questionable' Chem usage, beyond that I play the role as well as could be asked for by making useful chems, triage and an abundance of the surgeries. I don't know anyone who would feel poorly about their experiences with me in Med Bay, the only issues seem to come from Staff who catch wind of a situation unfolding ICly after the fact. It seems like more could be handled ICly instead of drawing it out onto the forums or thru admin messages in-game. If any players involved or have had experiences that they view as negative, in rounds which I play in Med Bay, I'd like to hear from them as I've never been made aware to any issues besides with Staff.
I do not believe I ever self-antagged, if we want to be sticklers we can go with improper escalation but even that's a stretch in my eyes. If the staff really believes this is justified and by their perception these were rule breaks, then that's fine, it's your server and you can define and perceive things how you see fit. I'm only human with an opinion like everyone else.

Imperator_Titan · Post by **Imperator_Titan** » 28 Apr 2018, 16:28

Notes:

► Show Spoiler

BobatNight · Post by **BobatNight** » 28 Apr 2018, 16:51

Honestly the write up of these two notes is just pretty lazy and heavy with opinion instead of other notes that were more to the point and factual.
Warned HEAVILY for self antagging. Drugged and cuffed an MP, dragged them to the morgue and started stripping them as doctor. Other crewmen intervened resulting in a fight (involving a grenade from the player). This should really be their last note for this. by X on Tue, April 17th of 2018

Ic in ooc was complaining in discord about me/staff disapproving of his actions in the round and giving a jobban for it. Medical ban was because he was drugging and abducting people (The Ro) as a doctor. He was warned for drugging people already. But still considers it good rp because '"they stole his diamonds" I did give them ic alternatives for the next time. by X on Sat, April 28th of 2018

Your IC alternatives were telling me I had to go to the MPs, that no sane person would take matters into their own hands.

Solarmare · Post by **Solarmare** » 28 Apr 2018, 16:53

Chloral hydrate as defined by our own guide is: Chemical, Toxin. With this note on dosage: N/A: Always poisonous. 5U or less recommended.
I'll leave looking into this for other staff as I was involved in making the decision, but it was on the basis of two previous notes of drugging and abducting individuals as well you seeming to think it was reasonable course of action that could be repeated without issue from the pm's of the staff member who was handling you. I would say it's not even that it was chloral hydrate, but soporific would have been equally an issue though it lacked the toxin damage for what was done. The day ban in the end was mostly placed because of the IC in OOC in discord.

BobatNight · Post by **BobatNight** » 28 Apr 2018, 17:00

Powerful sedative that's lethally toxic at high doses. ~ Chloral Hydrate

It's a sedative that produces toxins, I'm sure we wouldn't call the Chem for radiation damage a lethal chem just because of the slight damage it produces.

Post by **NGGJamie** » 28 Apr 2018, 17:48

Chloral Hydrate is a pretty lethal chem to inject into someone and doing so could legitimately put you into self-antag territory. You're trying to lawyer rules and blame staff when you appear to have legitimately committed a job-ban worthy offense. It would seem that you have an incorrect understanding of how our rules are applied. The rules are not some legal document that can be scrutinized for imperfections to use as a defense. They are intended to have enough information to tell people how the game should be played, with staff giving more abstract interpretations based on what the rules say. Therefore, by trying to base your appeal around verbiage in the rules and guides, you are fundamentally missing the point of their application and enforcement.

The ultimate determining factor in whether an appeal succeeds is the Managers/Host's opinion on whether a rule was applied correctly by the staff member, or if the player in question has learned from the punishment they received in the time since the ban. In this case, my answers to these questions would be that yes, the rules were applied correctly here, and no, you do not seem to get the point of what you've done wrong. Trying to lawyer your way through an appeal will get you precisely nowhere.

BobatNight · Post by **BobatNight** » 28 Apr 2018, 18:23

The rules are out dated and don't clearly define things, nobody is being a lawyer by having different interpretations or opinions. Even went onto mention that if Staff thinks that's self-antag or improper escalation, that's fine. We can have different opinions on this but it's your server so I'll have to play by your rules. There's actually nothing about self-antag there for anyone besides CL/Predator. (There's still lines about Atmos Fuckery and Medics doing surgery)

Chloral hydrate is lethal if you intend it to be lethal, an injection does minor toxin damage that is easily fixed with dylo. If you consider chloral to be a lethal by your interpretations or rules, that's again fine its your server.
Its use was never an issue before in the previous kidnappings, the Staff at the time were more focused on myself shooting with a gun and dropping a grenade than anything. Chloral use wasn't even mentioned, I'd even admitted to using Mind Breaker to make an MP seem insane so I could get him isolated. Which again was RP'd over the course of nearly the entire round with others assisting in drugging the MP in a MT Bar with Cherry Suto. The only reason it escalated to a grenade was I was being shot at by a PO with his pistol and needed to escape, I didn't think using it was improper escalation at the time as I was being attacked by lethals.

I've just been trying to figure out how to correctly do those situations, usually the issue wasn't the kidnapping or other shenannigans, it came down to using lethal force or improper escalation. I only play roles on the Almayer to RP, I'm not going out of my way to try and break the rules or be a rule lawyer, just trying to enjoy the server.

Sir Lordington · Post by **Sir Lordington** » 28 Apr 2018, 19:14

Here's the thing, you really shouldn't be fucking with people at that level, ESPECIALLY MPs given the standard they are held to. Self-antagging easily falls under the griefing and being a dick rules, so there's no discussion to be had there. I'm not going to get into the particulars of Chloral Hydrate and nonlethal vs less than lethal and such here, but if you believe the rules do not sufficiently cover certain issues or are outdated, I would encourage you to create a topic in General Discussion so as to not derail this appeal.

It falls to staff to determine what constitutes acceptable behaviour and what isn't and to interpret the rules. Therefore what constitutes proper RP and what does not as well as what conflicts are reasonable IC and what does not also falls to staff to determine. "It was RP'd" is something we hear daily, and is no excuse to take actions that step over the line.

I'll be pulling the logs shortly, but kidnapping military staff over taking diamonds that a private recovered from an AO does sound quite unreasonable as well as antagonistic. This is especially bad given that you have been warned about drugging and kidnapping people twice.

awan · Post by **awan** » 28 Apr 2018, 19:15

I am not going to go further into the dayban because that cannot be appealed and I hope you understand that is 100% valid. I am upset that while I was talking to you about rules you broke another one.

I am also not going to try and not give the entire explanation I gave ingame as to why what you did was wrong again.

The jobban is not to make you never play doctor again it is so that this kind of stuff does not happen again. And one of the reason I gave it is because you do not seem to understand that what you did is wrong. Now I might be strict or wrong on this and you are free to make your appeal.

However, if your appeal gets denied it will take 30 days before you can appeal again. I hoped this appeal would have come in a week or so from now with you understanding at least a bit more about the situation. And that I could then support I. Now if your appeal gets denied the ban will stay up for at least 30 days and that is quite long. And that will make this punishment feel all the harsher.

I am quite upset about the accusations as well. The staff is a team me being a trial mod is likely to get you a more fair treatment because trials are under a microscope and will get confirmation on nearly everything.

BobatNight · Post by **BobatNight** » 28 Apr 2018, 19:44

Awan my point was to say, like a new Cop might write tickets a lot so on and so forth.

I don't have to agree with anything to understand the message you're trying to convey, my actions weren't in line with whats expected of the role and rules. Kidnapping MPs isn't okay, there's not been a circumstance where the staff has been okay with it no matter the RP behind it or the escalation of force behind it.

I perfectly understand the way the Staff interprets this, me agreeing is irrelevant as long as I understand the expectations going forward. If I feel slighted by the MPs or other staff in the future, I'll refrain from doing some kidnapping or other ..things? Or if I do want to attempt something I'll use Ahelp instead of relying on the Prayers were noticed. (Where my intentions to 'go after' the RO were stated, directly after receiving a ' ... ' reply)

Sulaboy · Post by **Sulaboy** » 28 Apr 2018, 20:26

Posting here as kind of a character witness. BobatNight has been posting in the discord about this and discussing it with other players (including myself), I just wanted to come in and say that he seemed confused about some of the ways these problems are meant to be handled. I think he has been given a better understanding of what is appropriate and what is not, it might be a good thing to check the discord.

Sir Lordington · Post by **Sir Lordington** » 30 Apr 2018, 09:33

I've been busy lately, but here are the logs. Unfortunately prayers don't leave any. I'll elaborate on my findings shortly.

Logs:

► Show Spoiler

PMs:

► Show Spoiler

BobatNight · Post by **BobatNight** » 30 Apr 2018, 18:16

Well I apologize for abusing the role or taking advantage of situations to self-antag or use excessive force, that's not how I perceived it at the time and it wasn't my intention. I usually mainly play Med Bay or CL now because of the RP involved, I think Compton remembers arguing with CMO Spaghetti many a times in his career about Peri, it's a role I've always been interested in and enjoy. It's definitely not a role I want to miss out on, pretty burnt out on Xenos and PFC game play for the time being. That being said I do hope you'll let me return to Med Bay, I know I'd have several of the instances of kidnappings, (3) and escalation of force (3), and while not within the Server guidelines/rules, I did RP every instance and never attempted to kill another player. This doesn't excuse what did happen, but there was never any malicious intent besides from a RP perspective. I've been playing in Med Bay for nearly 7 months now, 99% of my time there is within the rules and as a good surgeon/chemist. Appeal is lifted, we'll bump it up to 100%.

Emeraldblood · Post by **Emeraldblood** » 03 May 2018, 14:21

The amount of entitlement I see from reading this in the initial appeal is up there. Let me start by saying that "The damage doesn't matter because we can heal them up later" is never a valid excuse and one I've seen countless times when people try to justify shooting people with pistols and so-on. Moving to the main topic here, knocking out people as a doctor because they stole something from you is stupid and illogical. When someone gets something of value stolen from them, they don't break into places to knock people out, kidnap them to backrooms with the intent to get their belongings back. One of the whole reasons we have the police force is so they can deal with this kind of stuff. On top of that, if there is an OOC rule break on the sides of the people beating you up, you report that to the staff and not try to take the rules into your own hands. The ban itself is deserved, be it good intentions or not. If you actually want to know if something is fair game to do, you can ahelp (not pray) about it and a staff will say if it's fair game or not. You can appeal this ban again in 30 days. Resolved - Job-ban is valid.

Spaghetti's Med Bay Ban Appeal Electric Boogaloo Part 1

Spaghetti's Med Bay Ban Appeal Electric Boogaloo Part 1

Re: Spaghetti's Med Bay Ban Appeal Electric Boogaloo Part 1

Re: Spaghetti's Med Bay Ban Appeal Electric Boogaloo Part 1

Re: Spaghetti's Med Bay Ban Appeal Electric Boogaloo Part 1

Re: Spaghetti's Med Bay Ban Appeal Electric Boogaloo Part 1

Re: Spaghetti's Med Bay Ban Appeal Electric Boogaloo Part 1

Re: Spaghetti's Med Bay Ban Appeal Electric Boogaloo Part 1

Re: Spaghetti's Med Bay Ban Appeal Electric Boogaloo Part 1

Re: Spaghetti's Med Bay Ban Appeal Electric Boogaloo Part 1

Re: Spaghetti's Med Bay Ban Appeal Electric Boogaloo Part 1

Re: Spaghetti's Med Bay Ban Appeal Electric Boogaloo Part 1

Re: Spaghetti's Med Bay Ban Appeal Electric Boogaloo Part 1

Re: Spaghetti's Med Bay Ban Appeal Electric Boogaloo Part 1

Re: Spaghetti's Med Bay Ban Appeal Electric Boogaloo Part 1