Meta/strategy discussion

[TicTac]

I'm one of the players that enjoys the strategy and meta behind the gamemode of Colonial Marines, don't get me wrong, roleplay and trying desperately to be robust are fun too, but the strategy is the really interesting part. The problem with the most recent patch is that it's broken a lot of the strategies as we know it, and despite trying my hardest to excuse it as marine players not "Catching on" to the new strategy... It doesn't seem to be the case. So I'd like to kinda just spitball some things that the new update did to the meta.

-Shotgun is less viable now. I think that prior to defender/warrior, shotguns were already becoming more and more prevelant, but with the addition of the praetorian spray, the tail sweep, and the new castes that are VERY tanky, it's barely viable to use shotguns. I think we saw some change to this strategy with a lot of marines choosing to not wear armor, with the idea being that if you're hit, you're already going to either die or get chain stunned. With this strategy of armor being punishable (to my knowledge), this takes away much of the viability of shotguns. The rifles aren't much more effective, with the defenders being able to tank shots for days, AP is the obvious answer, but AP is much more expensive now, so it's not as widely available as it would need to be.

-Tanks are... Weird. At best, they can do a lot of damage, and can hold an FOB for a short time, at worst, they bait a squad into a wipe. The main problem with the tank is that none of the maps are designed with a tank in mind, it doesn't fit in, literally. Big red is probably the best, but despite that, the amount of commitment the marines have to put into using the tank to its full effect leaves them crippled if it doesn't perform.

-Fobs are impossible to hold now. I think that the addition of the praetorian spray is the main issue, Praetorians can disable 5 marines on the frontline for 5-6 seconds, which is pretty big, but then when they stand, there's a good chance they take FF. Crushers have always traditionally been the leading force in breaking the FOB, but defenders are able to just stand in front of an FOB and turtle up and just... Sit there. I see it a lot, which leads me to think that the strategy is to run the marines out of ammo.

-Xenos evolve too quickly. There's no incentive for the xenos to just not rush to combat, they have every advantage. The more centralized the marines are, the better off they are, the early parts of the round is where they rule. I think implementing some way to allow a trickle of T3s, rather than a wave of T3s just before the marines land would be a lot more interesting, it would force the xenos to prioritize certain xenso over others. Xenos have always been the faction that benefits from just waiting, but lately we've seen 1 hr. stomps by xenos, they're winning without taking advantage of their big strength.

-Marines lack options. Marines main options per squad are "Which specialist do we have?" and "What are our orders?" beyond that, rank and file marines choose rifle or shotgun, and attachments have little impact on the scale of the game. It would be nice to see squads be able to pick from 2 specialists or 2 smartgunners, or mortars being more prevelant, more options for the marines to pull out that could impact the game. Part of the problem is the predictability of the marines for the xenos. Xenos know the marines will go to engineering, secure power, then push, if they start losing, fall back to FOB, if they lose that, evac. Giving marines an option to pull back, but deploy a mortar and right as they pull back, mortar their position, then quickly sweep back and massacre the xenos would be very interesting, and give command some interesting options. I know mortars are an option now, but making them cheaper, or more accessible would be nice. Perhaps some change to requisition over time would be nice, to reflect the ship becoming increasingly mobilized as the threat of xenos becomes more apparent.

-I kinda touched on this before, and I think this is a personal theory/grevience, but the amount of xenos metagaming and using that to their advantage without punishment is very annoying. Xenos will very often setup near engineering on maps like big red, and attack suddenly and without warning to wipe an entire squad. They'll see the red light of a CAS and immediatlly go in hivemind "RED DOT!" and all sprint away. Even predators, when they use their detonation will always have xenos SPRINT away at the first sign of the self-destruct gauntlet. CIC And SD are always rushed on ship offences, with medbay being a close second, though I think that's harder to argue, as it's in the center of the ship. I really don't know how to solve this, it puts the admins in a very awkward scenario, because a lot of the time the xenos can just claim "I wandered toward SD, found people in there, and reported it.", which is hard to combat.

-Final point, sorry, this is long, is that xenos don't feel very specialized. Defender is just as tanky as the crusher, which takes away from the crushers identity, but all xenos all move at similar speeds, with some just being the best at speeds. We don't get any xenos that are "weak" at something, just xenos that are particularly strong at one thing. I think the exception would be boiler and drone caste, but as far as the combat castes go, there's little reason to go lurker over defender, defender has similar offensive stats, significantly better defence, and serves a better role in the hive. I think part of the problem might be the power creep pushing some xenos into obscurity because of how weak they are in comparison to the new, updated ones. I would like to see a world where xenos evolutions and castes are situational, and calling any "Bad" would be difficult.


So yeah, this post was a lot longer than I anticipated, I guess I really just wanted to talk about the new update in relation to the balance of meta. I really tried to look at it as the marines just failing to adapt, but I think it's hard to do so. I'd love to hear what other have to think, I saw some COs talking about how hopeless they felt, how no strategy seems to work in this meta.

Edit: Oh, also, one of the new castes has a stun that I guess paralyzes similar to if you get half-screeched by queen? I don't know if it's a bug, but it's one of the most annoying things to be standing up, but unable to do anything, I think it would be much nicer to just be thrown to the ground.

[kroack]

Just to your first point, it's entirely possible to stunlock a lot of these new powerful T2s with shotgun slugs, if more than a few marines are baring down on a warrior at a time with slugs, they can keep her down while the rest kill it with pulse rifles.

Can confirm, even one shotgunner with rifleman can stunlock and kill a warrior. rip me.

[Dolth]

Hey there, the following applies on a general overall.

1- The problem
Current marine loadouts do not bring enough firepower to take down a combat xeno in an average situation, either you die either it flees and heal. This is EXACTLY why we CANNOT hold a FOB. Xenos tank shots while dealing material/human damage, pull back and heal.

2- The solutions
If xeno pulling back when hurt and healing is the issue, then you HAVE TO either block/control its movement or inflict a burst of damage that will take LESS TIME than required to escape to safety.

3- How to
Stunlocking while allow you to destroy T1 and T2. Requires teamwork, a good example would be having a slug shotty followed by pyro with blue flame, one slug stun, one dead xeno.
For unstunnable aliens you need to trap them. Be advised, chasing is considered 'movement control' as you keep in range. Yet closing cades behind crushers works, other castes just need coordination (Go on, try to take down that beefy ravager that runs faster, cannot be stunned neither flamed).

4- Bonus
Use goddamn cords with OB. Max offset is 5. First number is west to east, 0 being center, -5 being 5 tile west/left, second value is south to north, -5 being 5 tiles south/down.
Regardless and this is important; What always worked and will always work in any PvP game and IRL, is surprise. So I kindly invite you all to have a brainstorm to surprise xeno in ordrr to prevent them from backing/healing while bringing damage. (OB with offsets behind walls, flanks, hidden claymore at max tile with M56D manned so the xeno does NOT see you until he explodes and appear on far screen. Masterkeys. Remote airlocks. Shocked airlocks.)
Just be creative while respect those rules and thinking objectively.

I hope that's not too much of an invasive answer Tik Tok, but here are my thoughts.

[Pogo92]

I think adding a second Specialist to every squad would be a net boon to the game in general. Everyone wants to be a specialist, a second set of specialists will allow the marine squad to respond better and more uniquely to different situations, and it balances the power difference imposed by the new castes. Everyone is happy.

[Butlerblock]

Idk why you guys are talking about the current meta when for the past week CM has been in its worst state since the past year or so.

1. New castes were just released, and their numbers have been highly overtuned, give the devs some time to balance this shit out

2. Tanks were also just added, and since it’s a hard mechanic to learn, at first it’s definitely going to be an FF machine and hinder the marines more than it helps.

3. Nearly a month ago movement speeds were experimented on and it fucked almost every caste and certain specialists up, sometimes helping them, usually hurting them

How about instead of coming up with solutions that the devs need to fix, or finding your own “”””adaptations””””, why not just wait for the devs to smooth stuff out and rebalance the game.

[spookydonut]

Wow is this bizarro world, Butlerblock is the voice of reason.

[Heckenshutze]

Wow is this bizarro world, Butlerblock is the voice of reason.

it's clearly a bug, fix please.

[TicTac]

Idk why you guys are talking about the current meta when for the past week CM has been in its worst state since the past year or so.

1. New castes were just released, and their numbers have been highly overtuned, give the devs some time to balance this shit out

2. Tanks were also just added, and since it’s a hard mechanic to learn, at first it’s definitely going to be an FF machine and hinder the marines more than it helps.

3. Nearly a month ago movement speeds were experimented on and it fucked almost every caste and certain specialists up, sometimes helping them, usually hurting them

How about instead of coming up with solutions that the devs need to fix, or finding your own “”””adaptations””””, why not just wait for the devs to smooth stuff out and rebalance the game.

This post seems really silly to me. You're basically telling the players to do nothing to try and play differently because something got changed, just wait for the devs to change the game and hand you the new playstyle. Part of my point is that some of the new castes features might not be overpowered, but counter the strategies marines use, and are you really going to tell me the tanks fit smoothly on the maps we have? The movement changes haven't done much to change the overall strategies of the game either.

This post was intended to try and find a way to work with the update we've been given and instead you turn it around and say "Just wait, don't try."

Just to your first point, it's entirely possible to stunlock a lot of these new powerful T2s with shotgun slugs, if more than a few marines are baring down on a warrior at a time with slugs, they can keep her down while the rest kill it with pulse rifles.

Can confirm, even one shotgunner with rifleman can stunlock and kill a warrior. rip me.

Good point. I think that shells were very in, and are going out of style.

[Dolth]

Again, they tank much more bullets, so you have to rely on flamers for those defenders. Damages goes thru armor. Or use M56D or AP. Flanks doesnt work much now as our firepower turned into shit.

[Kesserline]

I tried to wait for Devs, but as you can see, I keep on waiting.

The heart of the damaged gameplay for this game have lied since the Queen got overpowered.

I will tell you a single story but with different outcomes :

- Marines land. Marines rox. Xenos lose. Queen wakes up to save the Hive. Queen loses because real shitty. Marines win.
- Marines land. Marines rox. Xenos lose. Queen wakes up to save the Hive. Queen fucks everything. Marines are repelled on the Almayer. Marines win on the Almayer.
- Marines land. Marines rox. Xenos lose. Queen wakes up to save the Hive. Queen fucks everything. Marines are repelled on the Almayer. Marines lose.
- Marines land. Marines rox. Xenos lose. Queen wakes up to save the Hive. Queen fucks everything. Marines are not repelled on the Almayer, but can't advance. Round is delayed. Marines win.
- Marines land. Marines rox. Xenos lose. Queen wakes up to save the Hive. Queen fucks everything. Marines are not repelled on the Almayer, but can't advance. Round is delayed. Marines are finally repelled on the Almayer. Marines lose.
- Marines land. Marines rox. Xenos lose. Queen wakes up to save the Hive. Queen fucks everything. Marines are not repelled on the Almayer, but can't advance. Round is delayed. Marines are finally repelled on the Almayer. Marines win.

Aaaand the last one : Marines land. Marines sux. Xenos win. Queen doesn't wake up because the Hive rekted everyone. (Actually, she just wakes up to call the DS, and the hive does the rest).

This what happened the moment the Devs gave the Queen the charge and the directional crest armor. The rounds just literally looked alike. Everytime, the Queen wakes up to fuck EVERYTHING. No matter what you do, no matter how shiny you bright, no matter how many miracles you can pull off, you have to face the Queen. And you need 10 robustos with full AP and decent weaponry to put her down. But most of the time, most of the robustos die while defeating the Hive, and you still have the Overmegaqueen to fight.

With all the outcomes I told you : ONLY ONE describes what happens when the Hive rox, and not just the Queen. All the rest of the times, Marines can be the best, and yet, lose, mostly because of the Queen alone.

This game is based on the Imperfect Balance principle. Yep. No problem. But this is still a videogame made to be enjoyed. In all these outcomes, as nearly every rounds relie on the Queen's performance : where is the fun ? (When you are not able to truely create bonds with other players and make some quality RP and bullshit-comms that can makes your day)
_______________________________

This situation was from one month and a half ago. Did it change drastically for the better ? Or are we still in a global and similar mess ? Or in a even worse situation ?

[Meatshield]

I am new and love this game. A few observations:

I see Xenos as almost perfectly aggressive mobile cavalry, and marines as masters of defence in depth.

FOBs are not impossible to hold. In fact, a full squad can nearly always hold a well designed FOB (unless all other squads are destroyed). In game, FOBs after 10 minutes of arriving well be empty, with groups of two or three marines walking to the last location xenos were spotted. This plays into the xeno strengths mercilessly. In fact, i have played for a week, and outlive 70% of the initial invading force.

The key part of marines is understanding FOBs are not just boring places to stand around at the LZ, its one of the most crucial locations in the battle. For Marines, it's also about logistical lines and creating a front. Taking key strategic points and setting up to defend them.

One sure way CMs can win is basically constructing a massive FOB with all squads. Although maps may force the forts to take different shapes. The xenos cant do anything except slowly get whittled away if you have rows of metal cades and lines of marines firing. Even if they dont win, it will be close.

Different maps suit this strategy, but fundamentally Marines excel in hunkering down and defence, not assault (xenos are they opposite, and have massive mobility advantages over marines meaning they can swarm marines very quickly). Other strategies might include building multiple bases, with logistical paths that can be defended, in key locations that allow the xenos to be flanked if they attack.

Big Red is very tricky. But one squad securing medical, another securing the LZ, gives the CO two more squads to play with. There you can secure the whole north or western portions of the map. Running to bar is a death sentence, you have no logistical paths and will be swarmed immediately.

Prison is probably an exception here, since there are so many natural nottlenecks, xeno mobility is significantly nerfed. But really even if you could organise a human wave with marines, the battle is won through attrition

[Fcanau]

Yesterday on LV heinz went and had three FOBs made with one scouting squad and it worked rather well, securing a win for the marines. From the perspective of Charlie in cargo our engineers kind of dropped the ball but even then Benos were busy with three fortifications while being open to flanks if concentrating on any one too much. There were still places they could exploit to win but they didnt and a final push wiped them out.

Maybe turtling will be the new meta and if so im okay with it.

[Skimmy2]

Snip

How did you enjoy the Meta pre xenoqueen change with Marines 80%+ winrate?
You can just remove "queen wakes up" in all of your senarios to describe all match outcomes in the game.

[Pogo92]

I am new and love this game. A few observations:

I see Xenos as almost perfectly aggressive mobile cavalry, and marines as masters of defence in depth.

FOBs are not impossible to hold. In fact, a full squad can nearly always hold a well designed FOB (unless all other squads are destroyed). In game, FOBs after 10 minutes of arriving well be empty, with groups of two or three marines walking to the last location xenos were spotted. This plays into the xeno strengths mercilessly. In fact, i have played for a week, and outlive 70% of the initial invading force.

I would disagree with your initial premise. Specifically, the combination of Boiler Gas Clouds + Crusher + Queen Charge, and now Prae Acid Shotgun, means the Xenos can assault a FOB with little personal risk. Gas Clouds temporarily nullify defenses by themselves--Combine a preemptive Queen Charge and you can stunlock + acid cloud any marine caught. Same can be down with the Prae's acid and spit to a lesser extent. Send the Crusher's in at the same time to dent up their fortifications, and rinse and repeat until you deplete the marine forces too much for them to hold the forward lines. Realistically, with the cover of the Boiler Gas Cloud, marines can't deal enough damage to kill even T2s. So it's a matter or attrition, which plays out pretty rapidly--Usually about 10 minutes of focused assault will break a line of cades.

Also, to note, Assault is the best way for Marines to win because of one very simple factor: Xeno HP Regeneration. During a siege, it is easy enough for a Xeno to skirmish then disengage with sizzling wounds, only to be healed up within a minute or two by laying on weeds. Even worst case scenario, a concentration of Xenos can drag back a paincritted Xeno to some weeds and let them rest for a while without devoting any resources or manpower to their recovery. Obviously this is different with Marines, between broken bones, vulnerable medics, and extraction for surgery. It means the only way to reliably kill Xenos is to push forward into their forces to prevent rest, as long as Marines can maintain the momentum.

[Lukey111]

I think that marines need a buff to balance them out. What we really need is new guns. Maybe a currency system for marines to buy special things (I.E. maybe some armor with better stats for 5 bucks, and guns for 10). Just an idea.

[Pogo92]

I think that marines need a buff to balance them out. What we really need is new guns. Maybe a currency system for marines to buy special things (I.E. maybe some armor with better stats for 5 bucks, and guns for 10). Just an idea.

I mean, you COULD balance like that and it would be cool, but in general you want to avoid balancing through brand new features because 1. It is extraordinarly more time intensive and, 2. It is much more volatile. Unless a near-complete feature is about to be released that might resolve a major balance issue, you want to take the most expedient and efficient route to fixing it. This usually means numbers changes or tweaks to function.

[misto]

ive noticed that command feels a lot more free to authorize retreat these days than they used to be. 100+ people still alive and still retreat, sometimes even against arguably manageable enemy numbers like 20ish xenos. it's a good strategy, though, because a stiff defense of almayer is the marines' last best chance to kill off the hive or at least run down the SD timer. it's just a little funny that we all silently recognize whats going on and what we're going to do next but can't say anything about what we're obviously planning to do out of metagaming punishment terror.

[Gnorse]

ive noticed that command feels a lot more free to authorize retreat these days than they used to be. 100+ people still alive and still retreat, sometimes even against arguably manageable enemy numbers like 20ish xenos. it's a good strategy, though, because a stiff defense of almayer is the marines' last best chance to kill off the hive or at least run down the SD timer. it's just a little funny that we all silently recognize whats going on and what we're going to do next but can't say anything about what we're obviously planning to do out of metagaming punishment terror.

This.
Back before the defender/warrior updates and the swiss-knife queen, marines would throw a fit if you tried to evac with more than 20 or so marines.
Now, I've seen commanders evac with 70 marines versus 20 or so xenos and no one would say a thing, because again, we all agree that the almayer defense is the marines' best shot to wipe out the hive.

[Meatshield]

ive noticed that command feels a lot more free to authorize retreat these days than they used to be. 100+ people still alive and still retreat, sometimes even against arguably manageable enemy numbers like 20ish xenos. it's a good strategy, though, because a stiff defense of almayer is the marines' last best chance to kill off the hive or at least run down the SD timer. it's just a little funny that we all silently recognize whats going on and what we're going to do next but can't say anything about what we're obviously planning to do out of metagaming punishment terror.

To be fair, it's more to do with the DS always going down even after the evac. The problem as I see it, is that xenos know they dont need to take many risks to get to the DS. I'd like to see Marines being able to go on the offensive again (bombing the planet or something) or even just finishing the round at evac.

[Brotemis]

Orbital bombardments could be a new thing if the beacons were just used for precise firing.

Adding a new computer to the weapons room to have a longer cool down (5 to 10 minutes) and more wild firing (think -+10 to 20 squares) without requiring a beacon would be amazing. No heads up warning for xenos or marines either (for variance) and gives command something else to do.

[Blade2000Br]

I tried to wait for Devs, but as you can see, I keep on waiting.

The heart of the damaged gameplay for this game have lied since the Queen got overpowered.

I will tell you a single story but with different outcomes :

- Marines land. Marines rox. Xenos lose. Queen wakes up to save the Hive. Queen loses because real shitty. Marines win.
- Marines land. Marines rox. Xenos lose. Queen wakes up to save the Hive. Queen fucks everything. Marines are repelled on the Almayer. Marines win on the Almayer.
- Marines land. Marines rox. Xenos lose. Queen wakes up to save the Hive. Queen fucks everything. Marines are repelled on the Almayer. Marines lose.
- Marines land. Marines rox. Xenos lose. Queen wakes up to save the Hive. Queen fucks everything. Marines are not repelled on the Almayer, but can't advance. Round is delayed. Marines win.
- Marines land. Marines rox. Xenos lose. Queen wakes up to save the Hive. Queen fucks everything. Marines are not repelled on the Almayer, but can't advance. Round is delayed. Marines are finally repelled on the Almayer. Marines lose.
- Marines land. Marines rox. Xenos lose. Queen wakes up to save the Hive. Queen fucks everything. Marines are not repelled on the Almayer, but can't advance. Round is delayed. Marines are finally repelled on the Almayer. Marines win.

Aaaand the last one : Marines land. Marines sux. Xenos win. Queen doesn't wake up because the Hive rekted everyone. (Actually, she just wakes up to call the DS, and the hive does the rest).

This what happened the moment the Devs gave the Queen the charge and the directional crest armor. The rounds just literally looked alike. Everytime, the Queen wakes up to fuck EVERYTHING. No matter what you do, no matter how shiny you bright, no matter how many miracles you can pull off, you have to face the Queen. And you need 10 robustos with full AP and decent weaponry to put her down. But most of the time, most of the robustos die while defeating the Hive, and you still have the Overmegaqueen to fight.

With all the outcomes I told you : ONLY ONE describes what happens when the Hive rox, and not just the Queen. All the rest of the times, Marines can be the best, and yet, lose, mostly because of the Queen alone.

This game is based on the Imperfect Balance principle. Yep. No problem. But this is still a videogame made to be enjoyed. In all these outcomes, as nearly every rounds relie on the Queen's performance : where is the fun ? (When you are not able to truely create bonds with other players and make some quality RP and bullshit-comms that can makes your day)
_______________________________

This situation was from one month and a half ago. Did it change drastically for the better ? Or are we still in a global and similar mess ? Or in a even worse situation ?

Honestly, from what I have seen, the queen is not the key factor anymore, as apparently the tank counters her. I mean, the tank treads manage to stun any alien regardless, or so I think it still does.

The new issue are the new sliens, they are still being tweaked, but are pretty hard to handle. I as CO got my CIC sieged by solely spitters, defenders and warriors while having full bravo plus CLF, we got encircled and died one by one. It was a very tense and fun battle as the barricades fell slowly and marines and CLFs alike got dragged off/killed. It felt good.

But yeah, recentçy I haaven't seen much queen complains, so perharps people already have a way to deal with her. I think.

[Mann handle]

But yeah, recently I haven't seen much queen complains, so perhaps people already have a way to deal with her. I think.

I think it's more down to the fact that we have other xenos to complain about seeing as almost every FoB is under siege when the marines touch the ground, xenos all of a sudden don't need a queen to screech and tank and flatten battle lines. As for dealing with with the queen, I've seen more success stories that utilizes a queen's stupidity rather any grand strategy. Such as the CIC lock down trick, the drop ship lock down trick, the humble plasteel cade trick (why queens don't screech at these crucial points i don't know).

Note that all of this just require one person to be on the ball and it works stupidly well. I've seen ancient queens die in the CIC trap. All of the fault lies on the queen at this point and most of the glory goes to the people who are on the ball, some of the glory after that lies in the bait.

Still, queen stupidity doesn't mean it's not a swiss army xeno that doesn't get complaints. People have just gotten used to the idea that if a queen gets old, you are simply forced to trap it.

[BillyBoBBizWorth]

-Shotgun is less viable now. it's barely viable to use shotguns.

Negative, dont overlook the shotgun, right now it is the answer.

Xenoes win by having stun abilities that they use against you, you can also stun them and beat them at their own game with supported shotgun wielding marines.

[Casany]

Honestly, from what I have seen, the queen is not the key factor anymore, as apparently the tank counters her. I mean, the tank treads manage to stun any alien regardless, or so I think it still does.

Just today.

>Tank goes into cave to fight queen
>Fires main cannon shell at her
>DIRECT HIT
>Examine queen
>"S H E I S S L I G H T L Y I N J U R E D"

[misto]

the northeast cave flank into lz1 in bigred was -almost- blocked off by the tank's wreckage today, but sadly not quite completely. people should really spare some more thought on how useful it may be to simply fix up the tank only enough to make it mobile and park it in places to plug passages with its bulk