Specs and leading

[Urytion]

A discussion came up in Dsay today after a round with a particularly bad spec aSL, and it was basically "should specs be the 2IC for squads?" The main argument is that specs have the best weapons for fucking up xenos. Between stuns, high damage, sniping, and fire, they're better put to use unga'ing the dunga instead of leading and coordinating squads.

I would say, as the system currently exists, yes because there is nobody else that can do it. As ranks are tied to roles, the Spec is the next ranking, so it is expected that they would take command if the SL dies/doesn't come out of cryo. But I agree they aren't necessarily suited to the role, but nobody else really is. Medics are too busy treating wounded, engineers are too busy trying to stop the FOB from imploding, the smartgunner has the same problem the spec has, and privates are (lorewise and also sometimes in actual gameplay) idiots and shouldn't be leading squads unless they're the only ones left. I've led as a medic and it is hell trying to heal everybody and coordinate a squad and keep the CO from ordering you to fix bayonets and hug the queen.

I heard a few proposals, like creating a new role explicitly for the purpose of creating a 2IC. Like a fireteam leader or a radioman who takes the rank of sergeant, and spec is bumped down to corporal. The SL is basically a standard marine with access to fancier toys, and this 2IC rank would be a continuation of that. An idea I saw was that you have a rank set preference in your character gen. The SL is SSGT by default, then each squad is composed of one SGT, 8-10 corporals, and X privates. Priority assigned to role, then squad, then rank. This means that the person taking the sergeant role will hopefully be ready to lead should bad things happen, instead of taking the role with the biggest fanciest gun.

Thoughts on a new 2IC role or rank set preference? Any other ideas or discussion?

[Skimmy2]

While I wouldnt be opposed to a Assistant Squad Leader, I find that the current system functions well enough as is.

It helps to force the Specialist/Engineers into Fire Team Leading roles and make them understand their responsibilities during Briefing, this encourages leadership and taking initiative once the Squad Lead is down.

[Gnorse]

I've seen specialists and smartgunners who outright REFUSE to be a squad leader, I had to lead the squad as a PFC when both the spec and smartie were alive.
so yeah, I'm all for adding a fireteam leader. It would lower the stress levels of squad leaders during highpop and would act as a stepping stone for those who want to play command roles for the first time.

[Sulaboy]

I don't like adding a second in command. When you queue up for a specialist slot you should understand you might need to lead the squad. Playing as spec is supposed to be more than getting big gun kill everything, it is a leadership role and should be kept that way. It's actually amazing how often specialists tell LTs to set someone else as aSL just because they don't want the responsibility.

[Urytion]

I don't like adding a second in command. When you queue up for a specialist slot you should understand you might need to lead the squad. Playing as spec is supposed to be more than getting big gun kill everything, it is a leadership role and should be kept that way. It's actually amazing how often specialists tell LTs to set someone else as aSL just because they don't want the responsibility.

In a way, I agree with you. It's much like complaining about an SO not willing to step up and take leadership even though they're in a secondary leadership position. But if that's the case, make it a clear and understood part of the job. Passing it off because you "don't want the responsibility" shouldn't be accepted under the current system, because it's literally what they signed up for.

[Gnorse]

But still, forcing the guy with the big gun to be the squad leader does lower his killing power quite a bit.

[Sulaboy]

In a way, I agree with you. It's much like complaining about an SO not willing to step up and take leadership even though they're in a secondary leadership position. But if that's the case, make it a clear and understood part of the job. Passing it off because you "don't want the responsibility" shouldn't be accepted under the current system, because it's literally what they signed up for.

Exactly, you should know as spec that you could have to lead the squad. I wish there was a way to enforce this, but any way I can think of is too invasive or impossible to reliably pull off. I just wish we could find a way to really show the point that spec is a leader role.

[Urytion]

Exactly, you should know as spec that you could have to lead the squad. I wish there was a way to enforce this, but any way I can think of is too invasive or impossible to reliably pull off. I just wish we could find a way to really show the point that spec is a leader role.

The only way I could see it working is making it a "you're not doing your job" punishable thing. Doctors not healing? They get slapped. Engis not fixing? They get slapped. Spec not leading after the SL dies? They get slapped.

I don't WANT to do that, because I think that's just too much in character policing, but that's the only way I can see it happening.

[Heckenshutze]

Usually anyone that volunteers to be aSL is better than any other candidate, even if it's just a PFC.

Since you can't bwoink people for that, just put them to arrest, pick another aSL and move on.

[Retrokinesis]

I'd really like to see a Designated ASL or the like as well, especially with the new vendors that won't let aSLs grab beacons and such. My nightmare as SO is a SPC aSL who never runs off alone, refuses to lead anyone, and never talks at all. Especially when they start talking, but only because you made someone else aSL and they're complaining about it.

[FearTheBlackout]

Specialists and Smartgunners should be forced to suck it up. If you want to be a slightly more important Squad Marine, you should accept leadership when things come down to the wire.

Honestly, Smartgunners should be Corporals and Engineers/Medics should be Lance Corporals so they can actually be the third-in-command.

[Szunti]

New 2IC role is an awesome idea. Specs and smartgunners want to shoot things, not lead. Why bond two unrelated things together?
I don't even know why do we have rank other than staff sergeant. I've never got an order from anyone else than the SL or aSL. When I play as engineer I give shovel and sandbags to the first private. I was always lucky and they took it, but I don't think I could use my rank if they started cursing me instead, because corporals are not recognized as superiors in practice.

[ThesoldierLLJK]

I think a PFC should volunteer in lieu of a smartgunner/spec/eng/medic. Or create an assistant leader role, like everyone suggests. When you make a spec aSL, you're taking that gun/equipment out of the fight.

[Park]

In the job description of the squad specialist you have to understand that in the case that your squad leader is MIA, WIA, or AWOL there is a chance that you will have to lead your squad. Being surprised that you have to lead your squad in this instance is like expecting not the command the CIC as an XO when a CO is heading planet-side. It seems selfish to me to shirk these responsibilities because you 'only want to shoot things'. You can argue all day that making the specialist aSL will lower his personal killing power but a squad lacking cohesion and direction will lower the entire platoon's killing power.

[ghost120]

I believe that spec as second to be SL is a good choice as:

1. It will scare off baldos
1.1 Marines won't suffer THAT HEAVY FF from e.g. B18 and his nades
2. Spec's equipment won't be lost that quickly
3. Less people who want to set spec on high

[Retrokinesis]

I believe that spec as second to be SL is a good choice as:

1. It will scare off baldos
1.1 Marines won't suffer THAT HEAVY FF from e.g. B18 and his nades
2. Spec's equipment won't be lost that quickly
3. Less people who want to set spec on high

#3 is good in theory but, at least in my experience, it doesn't actually stop people who have no interest in leading from rolling spec anyway. They just don't do it when they have to, and the only thing you can really do as SO is mark them for insub and appoint someone else.

[superjo98]

I honestly really hope the bald ASL spec you were talking about wasn't me, but I think that specs should be capable of leading their squad. I have had to be a spec ASL from round start 2 times and I found that if you find a way to balance out leading and shooting then you will be fine. But that's just my dumb opinion on things. If an actual 2IC squad role was added in I wouldn't object and it would help people who want to get into squad leading get experience by playing it.

[ghost120]

#3 is good in theory but, at least in my experience, it doesn't actually stop people who have no interest in leading from rolling spec anyway. They just don't do it when they have to, and the only thing you can really do as SO is mark them for insub and appoint someone else.

Yes, but if he will be constantly reported for insub, he's finally gonna get bwoinked.

[Sulaboy]

Yes, but if he will be constantly reported for insub, he's finally gonna get bwoinked.

You know, it might be a good idea to enforce leading by rank. With how often it happens it's low RP, but then again I'm really against the idea of having people get in trouble for being bad at a role.

[waswar]

An assistant rank would be pretty cool. Whilst the nifty weapons of Specs interest me, I don't want to deprive the ungas of this highly desired role, but at the same time, if I want to get leadership experience, I would almost have to eventually, which is meh.

[Renomaki]

Honestly, the best way to fix this issue is to simply have SLs be less combative overall.

All too often I see NCOs just charge deep into combat, guns blazing, even going completely silent as they slaughter as many aliens as they can... Until they bite off more than they can chew and get torn to shreds, forcing their spec to take their place while not having the tools to do their job effectively.

Squad leaders should be focusing on the leadership aspect of the job, not just acting like PFCs with more tools to kill shit with. Otherwise they hurt their squad HARD in the long run, not only forcing their spec to pick up the slack, but also leaving their squad handicapped due to a lack of useful tools (such as supply beacons).

As for the specs themselves, though? Well, they are supposed to be jobs with a considerable about of responsibility to them, they aren't just grunts with bigger guns. They are men who specialize in various fields that can get shit done when it needs to get done. I expect a great deal of maturity and intelligence from people in the spec role, just as I expect the same from my NCO.

Heck, imagine if predators didn't have any sense of responsibility! I think that is the best example I can think of as a comparison, because predators are constantly walking on eggshells to avoid shitting up the round, and it is easier said than done. The same could be said about specs, who people rely on heavily to not be idiots who charge into stupid situations and get themselves killed early in the game.

While I agree that having specs take over for their dead NCO kinda sucks, on the other hand it is the price you pay for being granted such power:

"With great power comes great responsibility" - Spiderman.

[Geikkamir]

I don't like adding a second in command. When you queue up for a specialist slot you should understand you might need to lead the squad. Playing as spec is supposed to be more than getting big gun kill everything, it is a leadership role and should be kept that way. It's actually amazing how often specialists tell LTs to set someone else as aSL just because they don't want the responsibility.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it just doesn't actually work that way in reality. People don't roll spec to be second in command, they roll spec because they get to play with the must fun, interesting weapons in the squad. You can moan all you want about it, but so long as specs are the only ones who get to have any variety in their loadouts, this is going to be the case.

[Sulaboy]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it just doesn't actually work that way in reality. People don't roll spec to be second in command, they roll spec because they get to play with the must fun, interesting weapons in the squad. You can moan all you want about it, but so long as specs are the only ones who get to have any variety in their loadouts, this is going to be the case.

You see this is the problem. The specialist role is supposed to be a second in command, that fact that people only choose it for the gun is unhealthy for he game. If the specialist role was only for a neat gun I'd rather it be removed entirely. While people will still role spec just to be bald and do some shooting it shouldn't be that way, they are a part of the squad like everyone else. People should understand that being a specialist means you will be leading the squad if the SL dies. Heck instead of telling the SO that you refuse to be aSL because gotta shoot those guns, you could focus on making sure the SL doesn't do anything stupid and you'll never need to be aSL.

[Geikkamir]

You see this is the problem. The specialist role is supposed to be a second in command, that fact that people only choose it for the gun is unhealthy for he game. If the specialist role was only for a neat gun I'd rather it be removed entirely. While people will still role spec just to be bald and do some shooting it shouldn't be that way, they are a part of the squad like everyone else. People should understand that being a specialist means you will be leading the squad if the SL dies. Heck instead of telling the SO that you refuse to be aSL because gotta shoot those guns, you could focus on making sure the SL doesn't do anything stupid and you'll never need to be aSL.

You can complain all you want about how "it's x people's fault for playing this way" or "there's nothing wrong with how things are, people just need to learn to do what I want them to" but that's not going to change the way that things actually are in reality. Just because there's an ideal fantasy you have of how the game should play out doesn't mean that that's how the game's design actually will play out. Specs get all the fun guns. People want to play with the fun guns instead of the dumb, shitty boring ones that they normally get. Thus, they're going to play spec regardless of whether or not they're interested in command because that's what they have to do to play with the fun guns. You can either look at what's actually happening in your game, what people are actually doing with it as it's designed and what aspects of it they're actually interested in and enjoy, or you can whine about how they're all too "bad" or "immature" and deflect from the real problem and get nowhere. Honestly, the sooner people around here get this, the better.

If you don't want people who aren't interested in leading taking up spec slots, then you have to disconnect leading from the things they find desirable about playing spec. That's pretty much all there is to it.

[Sulaboy]

-Snip

Has access to heavier more powerful weaponry and equipment to their disposal. Combat professional, lead the squad if needed.

Neglect of duty: Failure to perform their role to an acceptable standard. For example, a Commander failing to properly organize and ensure his personnel are given orders. Failing to follow proper procedures is also considered Neglect of Duty.

This can be cause for demotion.

Specialists who refuse to lead are breaking marine law, the problem is they can't face any punishment.