Staff Report: Solarmare

[Symbiosis]

Your Byond Key: Symbiosis

Your Character Name: Drone

Their Byond key: Solarmare

Approximate time and date of the incident (Central Us Time for best results): Not sure on the exact time, I wasn't PM'ed during the round (I stayed logged in 15-20 minutes after I died) and only approached later.

Which Staff Protocols (viewtopic.php?f=57&t=5647) were broken:
Enforcement of the rules
- Whenever a player receives a punishment they should know why and what they are being punished for.
- Ensure that all incidents are adequately investigated before giving a ruling.
- We are not a government repressing their citizens. Don’t hassle players for literally everything.

Description of the incident: I was a Larva that hatched on the Almayer mid surgery. I popped up on top of a surgery table and managed to break the ankles of the Doctors and Marines in Medbay. Eventually built a small hive in Engineering and destroyed a few things. Went back to Medbay and saw Hosts being worked on the same table I hatched on. I decided due to my weakness as a Drone that I'd melt the "tool" being used.

I eventually melted a vendor they were using and three surgical tables. I was killed and sat ghosted for a while, watching the round. Was never approached until Solarmare approached me via PM's on Discord.

Evidence (screenshots, logs, etc):

FlyingFlame - Today at 4:17 PM
I'll be warning you about metagaming where you only tried to melt the operating tables and a vendor as a drone since you logged off
No reason to specifically go after those
MrMiyagi - Today at 4:18 PM
Hey, yeah, so I don't believe that was metagaming. I hatched on the tables, and if anything it's an inconvenience. They can use rolled beds, can they not? I also spent time in Engineering melting random stuff.
I did my best to cause havoc as a Drone on the Almayer.
Any reason I wasn't PM'ed while I was on? I was dead about 15 minutes.
I've also melted vendors as a Drone/Queen for ages. Was this a recent rule change on the Xeno page?
FlyingFlame - Today at 4:20 PM
I was only aware of things afterwards, and as far things went that round you only melted the operating tables.
and a vending machine
MrMiyagi - Today at 4:20 PM
I also melted a vendor, and destroyed a bunch in Engineering.
Feel free to log dive. I didn't even bee line for Medical.
Examples that are NOT Metagaming:

Xenos slashing APCs or cameras. - This is the only thing that even comes close to touching on whats NOT metagaming for Xenos.
If things are changing, which would be good, then the rules could use an update.
FlyingFlame - Today at 4:24 PM
I'll leave it sit for targetting the operating tables then, there isn't a reason to care about those as a xeno. Trying to specifically melt them only makes much sense from an OOC perpective.
MrMiyagi - Today at 4:24 PM
Howso?
Xenos slash rolled beds
and Medevac beds.
Melting something they are using has never been metagaming? I get it, you probably ain't a fan of me after our little spat a few months back, but give me a fair shake.
I -agree- it's scummy or bad, so isn't rolling the Marines. But warning me for metagaming isn't cool, I stay within the confines of the rules.
FlyingFlame - Today at 4:26 PM
I don't even remember anything about that if it was, it's just that the main motivation of just melting the operating tables is reliant on metaknowledge.
MrMiyagi - Today at 4:26 PM
Reliant how? I hatched on one, they are using them for surgery and treating wounded Marines on them?
I literally hatched as a Larva ON the operating table.
That's precisely why I chose that target and medbay.
If i wanted to be scummy
I would've bee lined for Telecomms.
I try to act within what would be "right".
FlyingFlame - Today at 4:28 PM
You only know that they're putting marines on them, specifically targetting them is an issue because that is mostly dependant on the knowledge that can't be replaced and that attempting it anywhere else is worse.
They're more a permanent fixture on the ship and really shouldn't be acidable anyway but, that's another issue.
MrMiyagi - Today at 4:29 PM
Doctors do surgeries on Roller Beds all the time. They brought in roller beds after I did that.
If it's an issue (which if they can't be replaced, I assume it is) then make them unmeltable.
As far as I know I thought they're replaceable with plasteel stacks?
FlyingFlame - Today at 4:30 PM
If you want a reinforced table
operating ones can't be made
MrMiyagi - Today at 4:30 PM
Regardless of my ignorance on that aspect, there's nothing in the rules about it. Xenos slash roller beds, medevac beds, etc.
All I ask is that the rules be enforced - at least equally. Trust me, I'm fine with Xeno rules to prevent scummy stuff. I'm GLAD the Xenos don't heal on the Almayer anymore.
One Lurker/Hunter could do a ton of damage. Unfortunately the only way to realistically showcase things that need changed is to do them.
FlyingFlame - Today at 4:31 PM
As far as this goes I just haven't had to deal with xenos trying to melt those tables in particular
because it doesn't make much sense to do so
MrMiyagi - Today at 4:32 PM
Neither did I as a mod. I just decided to melt them because that's where I hatched specifically.
FlyingFlame - Today at 4:32 PM
other than from an ooc perspective
MrMiyagi - Today at 4:32 PM
I thought (frankly, rightfully) that it would be warrantable since I spawned on them as a Larva.
I'm also willing to take it to the forums along with our conversation if I'm getting a note for metagaming, as far as metagaming goes, that's really a stretch. I don't spend my time trying to metagame, even when I rush the Marines I try to have a reason (them outside the hive, approaching the Hive).
Told not to do it and a rule change happening? Sure, if that's necessary (which if they can't be replaced, it is!).
I just don't do scummy stuff that's AGAINST the rules.
FlyingFlame - Today at 4:34 PM
It's something I specifically will be handling as this if I notice it again, again it's something I just haven't had to deal with because it's something that only makes sense to attempt from an ooc perspective.
I'd say though in general you don't particularly care what's on the ship so much as there are tallhosts are around on it
MrMiyagi - Today at 4:35 PM
Right, there's nothing in the rules about that. Seeing as I do have note about it I'll take it to the forums.
Unless we can resolve this amicably and ensure that the proper rules are posted regarding this?
I follow the rules.
Yeah/Naw? Don't want to make the post and waste my time if unnecessary.
FlyingFlame - Today at 4:38 PM
You can take it to the forums if you like, but it's something I specfically asked about and xenos trying to specifically target things they only know are important from an ooc perspective(prep vendors and such) have been warned about before.
MrMiyagi - Today at 4:39 PM
Yeah, here's the deal. I birth as a Larva there from a Hosts chest. I see other Doctors working on other Hosts on those same tables. I am a Drone, best thing I can do is be an inconvenience.
Destroying those tables isn't any worse than slashing roller beds or medevac beds, in fact, probably far less.
I'll go ahead and post it.
FlyingFlame - Today at 4:41 PM
You decide the tables are more important than the hosts on them is the thing, the main motivation to melt operating tables is that you would know from an OOC perspective that the damage caused by that is permanent.
MrMiyagi - Today at 4:42 PM
I can't kill things as a Drone, but I can melt their tools. Is melting a dropped weapon metagaming as a drone?
FlyingFlame - Today at 4:47 PM
Weapons don't really matter, targetting more important fixtures on the almayer does.
MrMiyagi - Today at 4:47 PM
Melting a Specs weapon after they drop it when screeched or neuroed?
That's done quite often.
Unreplaceable.
FlyingFlame - Today at 4:48 PM
more important fixtures on the almayer does
Basically if you're going drone to melt what can be done to do what permanent damage you can you're operating more on ooc logic than what a xeno would
You're going after the tables that they're lying tallhosts on, but not the tallhosts that can't do anything on them
MrMiyagi - Today at 4:49 PM
What would a Xeno operate on? Nothing is permanent seeing as roller beds can be used.
If I wanted to metagame, like I said earlier, I would've gone to Telecomms and melted in and destroyed it.
I hatched on them. Xenos -are- an inconvenience, I'm sure you understand that. The moment I hatched they couldve welded vents.

- At this point I ended the conversation, I wasn't having any luck with providing other logical situations where Xenos melt/slash things without notes.

How you would punish the accused: Just remind them that the goal of the position they're in isn't to punish and repress players but enforce the rules. Currently the Rules do not state anything about melting equipment or slashing APC's, etc. If something is viewed as scummy it's fine to change the rules or adjust the game accordingly. I would also like the note removed as while I do push the limits on things, I'm pretty damn good about following the rules.

Frankly put, Xenos are an inconvenience. If I wanted to metagame I would've gone to Telecomms. Instead I went around the ship - came back, saw more Hosts being worked on, and decided to melt the same tables I burst from.

[Solarmare]

Whenever I was made aware of the situation or was handling it, the player was already logged off at the time.
I will say that xenos are or should be an inconvenience on the almayer, where the issue arises is where they seek to do more or cause permanent damage.
In this case the motivations of it's where I was born and where hosts are put on is somehow not enough for people to consider actually melting the operating tables, as this is the first time I handled this particular issue. This is because it's a rather weak reason for actions which are mostly dependant on metaknowledge, which haven't seen it as natural to do by most xenos that have been on the almayer.

I won't say there was a specific attempt to metagame, but the strongest reasons to do it are OOC and it shouldn't really be repeated.

[Symbiosis]

Whenever I was made aware of the situation or was handling it, the player was already logged off at the time.
I will say that xenos are or should be an inconvenience on the almayer, where the issue arises is where they seek to do more or cause permanent damage.
In this case the motivations of it's where I was born and where hosts are put on is somehow not enough for people to consider actually melting the operating tables, as this is the first time I handled this particular issue. This is because it's a rather weak reason for actions which are mostly dependant on metaknowledge, which haven't seen it as natural to do by most xenos that have been on the almayer.

I won't say there was a specific attempt to metagame, but the strongest reasons to do it are OOC and it shouldn't really be repeated.

I’m glad that we’ve agreed there wasn’t a specific attempt to metagame. I think we will all agree that players should not be held accountable for oversights in rules or in objects that should not be meltable (for example, APCs are not meltable).

Assuming that since there was no rule break - and we agree I wasn’t attempting to metagame, this can be quickly resolved with the note removed and Xeno rules adjusted accordingly? (Or the object made not meltable)

[Solarmare]

What you were doing was metagaming at the end of it, going after the operating tables specifically over the hosts on them is odd enough to be OOC. I just won't say what's in other people's minds as they're doing something.

Its the kind of behavior that should be avoided and not repeated is the thing, and is why a note was placed and will remain until there's a judgement otherwise. It's not an issue unless it's the sort of acton that you choose to repeat after being made aware it's not fine. Notes are used in some cases like this where it could be considered not necessarily malicious to ensure it's an issue that a player's learned from and isn't repeating.

I'll repeat myself in xenos should just be a nuisance and little more, it's at the point where you're going drone to try and cause permanent damage to the ship because nothing else does is where you start to operate on an OOC perspective and where the issue is.

[Symbiosis]

What you were doing was metagaming at the end of it, going after the operating tables specifically over the hosts on them is odd enough to be OOC. I just won't say what's in other people's minds as they're doing something.

Its the kind of behavior that should be avoided and not repeated is the thing, and is why a note was placed and will remain until there's a judgement otherwise. It's not an issue unless it's the sort of acton that you choose to repeat after being made aware it's not fine.

It’s not an issue to use strategies or actions that are not clearly defined. That’s the beauty of a rule set, they’re used to define the limitations of the game.

Clearly you agree that Xenos are an inconvenience. If slashing roller beds (which removes them completely as well, and a vital equipment piece to boot) isn’t an issue, this isn’t an issue. If it’s unintended then it just needs addressed. I understand that I often utilize tactics, strategies, or actions that are not normally used but to suggest that there’s an undefined ruleset which will be enforced on the playerbase at the arbitrary desires of specific individuals is why I’m making this report.

The below logic is what I have issue with...

Roller Bed slashed = Gone forever, okay.
Spec Weapon Melted = Gone forever, okay.
Surgery Table melted = Gone forever, not okay.

Things get destroyed, it’s an inconvenience to die or get your stuff melted. It’s part of the game, not a huge issue that requires constant Admin involvement. If it’s unintended, fix it.

Specifically: What happens when I find a way to inconvenience you or the round in a way you haven’t thought of before but frustates or bothers you/someone else? Will this arbitrary and unspoken ruleset be used again?

[taketheshot56]

I just want to give my take as a character witness here. While symb definatly has some salt inducing xeno strats. He always follows the rules. To give him a metagaming warning is over the top. Operating tables can he perceived by xenos as "A metal slab that heals" its not game ending at all. Symb is a rule following fellow and doesn't deserve this.

[Solarmare]

It is an issue to metagame, which this is. Something not specifically stated as an example on the rules or not made mechanically impossible is not something that means it is free to do. Rules are left purposely vague so staff can ensure a general set of behavior can be handled without players trying to rules lawyer the way out of them through "this specific thing isnt in the rules."
If the ways you inconvenience a round involve acting out of character as i find this does, then they will be met with a ban for metagaming as it states. As I stated when you're going drone to melt things on the Almayer is when you're starting to operate on an OOC perspective rather than an IC one because you know the damage done by that will be permanent.
I'll just say simply, specifically melting the operating table is metagaming. It's a table that tallhosts are on and when thats your interest rather than the tallhosts beside it or on it is when you're working with metaknowledge. Saying that xenos could think it's a slab that heals is also only true if you dont realize xenos don't have actual knowledge of how healthy marines are, other than for when they're unconscious or ssd,
If it's at the point where a player noticeably takes actions that only make most sense in an OOC perspective where metagaming comes in, and in this case it's caring more about the tools or tables hosts are using rather than the hosts themselves.

[NGGJamie]

I should clarify that this particular instance was confirmed with Head Staff and we agree that melting operating tables is metagaming. After glancing at the exact note that was left, it seems appropriate for the action taken.

Emerald's view may vary, but I'm not seeing any wrongdoing by Solarmare here.

[Symbiosis]

I should clarify that this particular instance was confirmed with Head Staff and we agree that melting operating tables is metagaming. After glancing at the exact note that was left, it seems appropriate for the action taken.

Emerald's view may vary, but I'm not seeing any wrongdoing by Solarmare here.

So when will the tables be adjusted to what APC’s are? I assume roller beds and medevac beds will also be adjusted in a way that they are unable to be targeted by Xenos? Will we be adjusting the Xeno rules about the colony as well? Previously they have been instructed that they can melt or destroy anything.

If not, this is laughable. No investigation was done while I was online - nor clearly were logs pulled to show the myriad of other things I melted or destroyed.

If the oversight is on the Developer side, fix it. I don’t think it’s a good precedent to set that whenever someone does something that frustrates an admin they can accuse a player of metagaming - even when a dozen comparable things ARENT metagaming.

The argument that focusing on the tools or objects instead of the tallhosts is also laughable - Xenos melt through walls, barricades, equipment nearby or equipment dropped - EVEN when able bodied Marines are nearby. If you do not like acid being used on things the Marines use, allow space cleaner to remove it.

I do things to push the envelope, but if I wanted to metagame and do REAL HARM I would’ve gone to the empty upper deck and MELTED INTO TELECOMMUNICATIONS which is completely out in the middle of nowhere.

All I’m asking it that you follow the staff protocol, please. Pull the timeline and logs that show where I birthed as a Xeno, the time I took to get BACK to Medbay after weeding/melting other areas/destroying other things, then the lack of any work to weld vents during that time.

[Symbiosis]

As a final piece of evidence, several months ago a Xeno melted the podlock buttons on Ice Colony/LZ2. No warning or notes were issued; and this prevented the Marines from moving south via LZ2. Not just inconveniencing them.

This was chalked up to Dev oversight when it was brought before the Admins. I believe Rahl is attempting to move CM in a direction where there are less inane rules and mod involvement for minor things - again, echoing STAFF PROTOCOL...

- We are not a government repressing their citizens. Don’t hassle players for literally everything.



I do not believe having the ability for Mods/Admins to punish at will for things that aren’t stated at their subjective will is a positive thing for CM - or a good precedent to set. If you want me to leave CM, just say it plainly. Don’t come at me with some goofy claims of metagaming.

[solidfury7]

I think claiming that solare broke any rules is pretty ridiculous and using them as a means to appeal a note is really disappointing to see from you symb.

Regarding the melting the surgical tables issue, it is absolutely a metagaming play, a xeno would ICly care very little about melting an inanimate object hosts lay on to receive surgery. The only reason you would melt it is because you know it would cause issues OOCly and force doctors to use rollarbeds, aka ghetto surgery which is really risky.

Comparing the melting of an inanimate object with a specialists weapon melting is completely ridiculous. One is a lethal weapon used to kill, one is a glorified table.

Comparing surgical tables and rollerbeds, is silly. One is designed to move wounded hosts from the frontlines, destroying them impedes that relocation. Destroying a surgical bed is destroying an inanimate object.

Claiming that "x is okay because y happened" is dumb, several months in an eternity of CM time, policies change, rulings change, the game changes.

Not to mention that Moderators and admins are here to enforce rules, devs add content. You've already made an absolutely excellent githib thread. However suggestion gameplay changes to mods is no different to random people ahelping it in game.

The majority of my notes (which I have a lot of) would be considered valid actions in the new age of CM. Its why nearly any admin and mod worth their salt discards any notes from more than 12 months ago.

Finally, notes are simply there for a record of behaviour and interactions with staff.

I wrote far more on this matter but the forums ate my previous post it seems.

And Symb, youre a good mate of mine but you have a conspiracy theory in your head which doesn't exist. Nobody is out to get you. There isnt a backroom club with your face attached on to an elite empress.

That's my two cents anyway, I'm on my phone so I may edit and reformat this post later.

[Symbiosis]

I think claiming that solare broke any rules is pretty ridiculous and using them as a means to appeal a note is really disappointing to see from you symb.

Regarding the melting the surgical tables issue, it is absolutely a metagaming play, a xeno would ICly care very little about melting an inanimate object hosts lay on to receive surgery. The only reason you would melt it is because you know it would cause issues OOCly and force doctors to use rollarbeds, aka ghetto surgery which is really risky.

Comparing the melting of an inanimate object with a specialists weapon melting is completely ridiculous. One is a lethal weapon used to kill, one is a glorified table.

Comparing surgical tables and rollerbeds, is silly. One is designed to move wounded hosts from the frontlines, destroying them impedes that relocation. Destroying a surgical bed is destroying an inanimate object.

Claiming that "x is okay because y happened" is dumb, several months in an eternity of CM time, policies change, rulings change, the game changes.

Not to mention that Moderators and admins are here to enforce rules, devs add content. You've already made an absolutely excellent githib thread. However suggestion gameplay changes to mods is no different to random people ahelping it in game.

The majority of my notes (which I have a lot of) would be considered valid actions in the new age of CM. Its why nearly any admin and mod worth their salt discards any notes from more than 12 months ago.

Finally, notes are simply there for a record of behaviour and interactions with staff.

I wrote far more on this matter but the forums ate my previous post it seems.

And Symb, youre a good mate of mine but you have a conspiracy theory in your head which doesn't exist. Nobody is out to get you. There isnt a backroom club with your face attached on to an elite empress.

That's my two cents anyway, I'm on my phone so I may edit and reformat this post later.

I don’t think it’s a huge issue. Still. It’s an inconvenience - so isn’t decapping a Doctor as a Runner.

The Medevac bed is vital to Medics and it’s not meta to slash or melt. It’s also an inanimate object.

As far as the conspiracy theory thing and policy changes, etc. I’m not asking for Solarmare to be punished. I’m asking for policy changes and rules if they exist to be readily visible. I try to push the envelope as a player and do new things/strategies, so getting hit with notes based on subjective feelings is not a good thing. When a developer talks about me being Xeno banned for this after someone mentioned my name in Discord... it’s easy to come to the conclusion that someone is trying to grasp for straws to have a “reason” to get me Xeno banned.

A proper investigation on why was never done, I burst on a surgical table (feel free to pull the logs) - thus, upon later coming back and seeing marines being worked on, I viewed it as valid to melt said tables.

If there’s ever anything I do that has bothered anyone - at any level, I’ve complied with a request to desist. I can’t read minds, so I don’t believe that it’s right to be held to a standard that is ambiguous and subject to whims.

[WinterClould]

I feel like the act of melting the surgery table is one which has no longterm effects on the round as doctors can simply do ghetto surgery, which isn't really that bad. I do however feel it's clearly meta here. For a xeno to specifically target said table is a meta choice you're making as a player with ooc knowledge on the surgery process and not one as a xeno trying to do xeno things.

On the topic of people being anti Symbiosis, I don't feel like there's any coordinated effort to witch hunt chubs, however I do feel like there are some people on our staff with a grudge against him that wouldn't mind seeing him pushed out of our community. Which is a real shame because while his methods might not be the kind everyone enjoys, they frequently either directly get results themselves or get people angry enough to push louder together for changes that are frequently good for the game. You might not agree with the man, but on matters other then this report and politics, he's rarely wrong in my eyes.

(He totally meta'd those tables tho, they're really nothing more then sterile metal slabs in the middle of the OR, hardly noteworthy to any xeno.)

[spookydonut]

You don't get to repeatedly break the rules and then claim its fine because they were broken with good intentions.

[Symbiosis]

You don't get to repeatedly break the rules and then claim its fine because they were broken with good intentions.

Repeatedly break the rules???

I’m sorry, I understand that you’ve stated you’re anxiously awaiting my Perma in Discord, but I don’t repeatedly break the rules. I don’t know how I hurt you, but I’m very sorry for whatever pain I’ve caused you.

[freemysoul]

Locking down the topic until a +Manager passes judgment over this as it is starting to get very heated, Any further Character Evidence should be posted to me, Emerald or Nggjamie.

Edit: As of now, give all character evidence to Either Emerald or SLC.

[slc97]

I don't see any protocols being broken by Solarmare. It has regularly been maintained in the entirety of the last 2 years I've been staff here that xenos are not allowed to melt permanent ship functions that would directly cripple marines unless they are building a nest in the area. This is cleared by the Rules As Intended clause. It is entirely infeasible for us to write down every single instance of metagaming. You received a warning for this, and I see no issue with that. No further action will be taken.

Resolved