MPs have become antags?

[taketheshot56]

So lately ive seen alot and I mean ALOT of CMPs and their MP forces deciding they need to take down the commander for little things.
Its getting stupid it really is. I remember when MPs and the CO worked hand in hand and things were fine, but suddenly lately weve seen things like the jester and Awan situation which have been blown out of proportions by command issuing arrest orders.

It seems every other round a commander is being detained for something by the MP team. At this point it is getting ridiculous. I play MP ALOT, like quite a bit and ive been seeing this too much, entire rounds ruined because the CMP has decided to go on a little power trip. Now dont get me wrong some CMPs have done great and working with the command team marines in turn have done great. But in my opinion the amount of commanders being relieved from duty in the past two weeks is getting out of hand. But that is just my opinion.

Thoughts?

[Sleepy Retard]

Considering that many commanders have been removed from HC orders - yes.

MPs are frustrating, they add nothing, and they literally ruin rounds because having no CO is actually crippling - XOs and SOs are too brain dead to function without a centre head

[Bancrose]

I can also concur, I've had to deal with MPs and High Command ordered arrests quite a bit lately, and for the most petty and ridiculous shit I have ever seen. But so this is not a thread of stirring the pot and so that this is a constructive discussion.

Its also gotten to the point where I can confidently say that MP's and CMP's might have actually lost us those rounds that looks like it was in favor of marines. The 3 mps on LV that flashbanged and tasered my men on the front line, Watching them get dragged off and murdered by Warriors and Ravs. The CL incident where he asked if I wanted ultrazine and I said go give it to the CMO or something. I somehow get a High Command issued arrest for drug dealing. Like I have no idea what is going on atm.

What would you recommend we suggest to the staff in order to make this more enjoyable for us. I spoke to Lordington about clarifying what an Unlawful Order is. If anyone of you have suggestions, this would probably be a nice place to say it.

[NoahKirchner]

I don't understand why MPs have all collectively decided to become as shitty as possible to the other people in the rounds in just this moment but it's very annoying. Tasing on the front lines, arresting the CO for stuff that is so minor and minute like eating breakfast in pajamas (Not even giving a briefing!) make it very clear that MP actions are just soft grief and an attempt for CMPs to wave around their lawboner. It's annoying and it makes me not want to play anything but squad marine, and even if I play a squad marine position it makes me want to not talk to anybody or do anything interesting. It's annoying, frustrating and entirely preventable if people just weren't cunts for no reason.

[taketheshot56]

Like i for one think MPs are an important part of the server, but these last two weeks. Ive been trying to wrap my head around it. Changes need to be made, the CO needs to become the word of law on his ship again. CMP needs to be adapted as a role to a more warden type, rather than overarching figure out to get the CO.

[ThesoldierLLJK]

MP role should be to stop fist fights, vandalism, hooliganism, and thieves. It should also be a RP role which I try to do as an MP.
But lately with all the hurf durf lets remove the CO or hurf durf lets kill the MP's for arresting the CO, I don't want to play it anymore.

[Renomaki]

The irony is without MPs, the ship would degrade into chaos and we'd have to resort to either a more vigilante system, or have MORE staff intervention, and if there is one thing people hate, it is staff intervention (hell, we had a whole day dedicated to what would happen if there are NO staff intervention, and it was outright madness).

MPs are needed to keep the peace on the ship and ensure marines aren't starting stupid shit for the sake of being assholes and giving command staff a harder time than they already have. If we want to enjoy a server with more IC interaction and less OOC intervention by staff, then we need to fix the Military Police.

How is the question, however.

[davidofmk771]

The irony is without MPs, the ship would degrade into chaos and we'd have to resort to either a more vigilante system, or have MORE staff intervention, and if there is one thing people hate, it is staff intervention (hell, we had a whole day dedicated to what would happen if there are NO staff intervention, and it was outright madness).

MPs are needed to keep the peace on the ship and ensure marines aren't starting stupid shit for the sake of being assholes and giving command staff a harder time than they already have. If we want to enjoy a server with more IC interaction and less OOC intervention by staff, then we need to fix the Military Police.

I don't think this is true. The real reason we have MPs is so that the charges applied by marine law no longer have to be handled OOCly by staff.

However, I have heard of and even witnessed some strange situations. CO's arrests being ordered over very silly things (both for the CO and WO) and very late into the round, often when the shuttle crash stage begins. It is clear that when marines see their leader being arrested by MPs who have no real idea what they're actually going to do with the CO when there's a hijacked DS headed straight for the ship.

Recently, I played an MP round which was quite a reverse of all this, funnily. The CL bought an ultrazine bottle, and showed it to the CO, who didnt care much. the CO said to 'give it to the CMO or something'. Accordingly, the CL offered it to the CMO, and when denied, simply dropped it in medbay. The CMO reported this, and I picked up the bottle in medbay.

This is where it got fishy. Lots of words went around on MP comms about how the CL said the CO ordered it distributed (told to a fellow MP by an SO I recall), and the WO began to demand that we all just forget about the case and subsequently gave the pill bottle back to the CMO, who 'lost' it somehow, leaving it in the hands of a researcher. Throughout this time, I wrote a fax to high command about the situation, and my grievances to the CMP, who by then had specifically ordered me off the case, which was still being handled due to my fellow MP's more subtle interest.

In the end, the CL sold out the CO, along with a few other key witnesses, and Provost called in an arrest order on the CO for the illegal distribution of combat stims. However, by this time, the ship was already hijacked and in the air, so we all chose to hold off on the arrest until after the xenos were defeated (I think they were?)

My point being, that both the MPs, CL, and the witnesses worked together (both intentionally and not) to get a basically false charge placed on the CO for a slip of phrasing, but in the end, we did not choose to effect the round by forcing him to comply to an arrest that has no endpoint but either release or death in handcuffs. I'm very worried about these MPs who attempt to arrest the CO at endgame and then demand bans for those who react reasonably to a generally alien part of the crew attempting to remove their leadership in a direct time of crisis (the shuttle hijack and crash).

Now the round this part is about is still going, so I wont say much, but I see a reaction brewing against this which is also unreasonable. You are SANE MARINES! There are proper and improper reactons to seeing a friend getting arrested in the middle of a seemingly standard bug hunt operation, and killings of any time are not proper.

[Avalanchee]

You just can't RP as a MP because you need to follow those gay instructors otherwise you get bwoinked

[RedsPro]

I played MP and CMP yesterday. During my CMP round i decided to be lenient and use my head. Minimum sentences only and i overlooked minor stuff for the betterment of the OP. Powerhungry players who want to flex a power boner because they cant fucking be touched IC were not a fan of that. The CO at the time allegedly gave Ultrazine to the Doctors, after a small investigation none of his fibers were found on the bottle and the only evidence was some people said the CO talked to the CMO. I said no arrest will be made and i wont take him out of power during a combat OP against an unknown enemy thats fucking shredding our troops. I got ahelped a lot apparently. So some people did they're own investigation and brought me the evidence. i said if any charges will be filed it will be after the OP is over. They faxed the Provost Marshall and got me removed from CMP and got an arrest warrent for the CO. As the Drop ship was crashing. In my honest opinion they're maybe like five good MP mains. All the people who play MP are either absolute shit at the game or dont know the rules and are power hungry dickheads that like to be better then other players. The next round i played regular MP and told a PO to "Shut up cunt we can contain it" About a fucking SCP. An actual statue that is breaking peoples neck. That is time for panic. Its funny that my decision to arrest the CO after the OP was note worthy but when a mentor does it its overlooked. MP's shouldn't have so much OOC protection especially when all they do is soft grief Marines.

[ThePiachu]

I think the solution for the CMP or the CO being a shitter and breaking or abusing the laws is ahelp / fax to the high command. The CMP, the CO and the CL each have a fax machine, and they should use this power to keep one another in check. Job bans exist for a reason if someone is going completely out of line as well. Or you know, shame them for their actions - viewtopic.php?f=135&t=17471 .

[RedsPro]

Thats exactly the problem. Mp's literally cant be touched in game. They cant take five minutes to talk to someone and CMP's cant decide weather or not to press charges. If you don't press charges against a CO all the MP's get hurt that they cant be the ones to cuff a CO and ruin the round for all the marines planetside. The problem is they are absolute shitters. they use and abuse the MP status as much as they can to get they're powerboner rocks off.

[ThePiachu]

I mean, I had one round as a CL where I had to report the only MP to the high command for openly and repeatedly insulting their superior over general comms. If it's that level of shittery, that calls for a small intervention from the admins. I almost feel if what you're describing is the situation in most rounds, there might be a crackdown coming for "low-RP MPs", which means hey - if you want to verbally berate someone, play as CMP often and put them in their place.

[davidofmk771]

I played MP and CMP yesterday. During my CMP round i decided to be lenient and use my head. Minimum sentences only and i overlooked minor stuff for the betterment of the OP.

See, this is just as much part of the problem. The MPs are not fun guys who ignore the law when its convenient, otherwise there is no point to marine law in the first place. Most of what it governs are conveniences that would otherwise simply be governed by staff intervention.

Nobody was investigating because of the accusations against the CO or CL, we were investigating because possession and distribution of ultrazine is illegal 100% of the time. What you suggested is we ignore a clear crime and even re-distribute the illegal combat stims, which COULD have resulted in staff intervention, possibly a job ban from CMP. That's why I chose to handle it ICly with a fax.

My point is that MPs are supposed to play one way, and the marines can play according to that. But demanding intervention in the post-hijack stage because you were attacked or even killed for attempting to remove the leadership? It just kills RP because some egos got in the way.

[Retrokinesis]

Now, let me start by saying I've played MP a fair bit but don't find it particularly enjoyable and the one time I played CMP was possibly the least enjoyable round I've ever experienced. It's an utterly thankless job where everyone regards you about as well as they do the CL, except you have actual duties to perform instead of just handing out drugs and making a general nuisance of yourself. I've also never had any problems with MPs in any other role I've played; I've never been arrested and the one time I was called into the brig was for questioning in someone else's case.

But this issue does seem to be happening an awful lot lately. In some sense that's completely unavoidable? Server administration actively wants less staff involvement in rule enforcement now, which necessitates MPs doing it IC instead. And the new marine law is written to allow more discretion and hopefully stop MPs from being required to act as in-character mods at all times or risk a job ban. And, like any rule change, there are going to be some growing pains while people work out where the limits and loopholes are. It will definitely need some clarification and updating but, in the meantime, I feel like we can identify three causes for these recent incidents:

1. Command, especially the actual commander. The CO has incredibly broad authority. They have literal life-or-death power over almost everyone on the ship in the form of BEs, let alone less-direct methods like ordering deliberate suicide charges or refusing to call evac when it's possible to do so. And even that's not enough; I've heard a lot of COs annoyed at the fact that they can't BE civilians or MPs, because the idea that there are some people they can't kill on a whim is infuriating to them. If COs want ultimate godlike authority, then they need to start being held to a higher standard. The CO whitelist is widely regarded as being the easiest to pass and people are almost never removed from it regardless of what they do, despite the CO having way more potential to take people out of the round than a predator or synth. One could argue that a predator's purpose is to take people out of the round, albeit in hopefully-interesting ways, but they have extremely strict rules on when, how, and who that will get them de-whitelisted in a heartbeat if they violate. And synths can kill but, unlike marines, are expected to adhere to marine law 100% of the time and lack the emotions to escalate violently like marines often do when they feel wronged.

We've established that COs aren't obligated to attempt to try to "win". Indeed, many of them are often barely involved in the round at all. And that's fine, because tying command eligibility to winrate would mean we have no command ever. Their actual job is supposedly to provide good RP experiences... but they can often be very low-RP and deliberately antagonistic. So what, exactly, is their purpose beyond "do whatever I like with the assurance that I am almost certainly not going to be punished for it no matter what"? I'm not suggesting everyone be de-whitelisted or that CO become a 100% high-RP at all times role. But establishing some actual rules for what the person who has the single greatest ability to ruin everything can and can't do would be nice.

2. MPs, often but not always including the CMP. Yes, some people do play MPs like Judge Dredd, stalking people to catch every infraction no matter how minor. Under the new marine law, that's at least no longer the only valid way to play MP without risking a job ban for failing to enforce the law. Some people are always going to be jerks and choose to play MP like that, but that's a consequence of marine law allowing them to do so because of things like maximum sentences and few crimes with mandatory warnings for first offenses. MPs have been given more discretion about when they enforce marine law but I feel like they should maybe be given less discretion in what sentences they impose, both to avoid the appearance of bias (you getting the maximum and someone else getting the minimum for the same crime because the MP dislikes you) and to stop validhunting MPs from giving the maximum to everyone for everything because it amuses them.

It might also be worth taking another look at the CMP role specifically. Ideally, they would act as a "voice of reason" that curbs the worst excesses of certain MPs or COs due to their ability to overrule the CO in matters of law. But they often don't and there might not be one on when you really need them. The idea of whitelisting CMP but giving them an Elder Predator-esque ability to allow very selective breaches of marine law or pardon obvious crimes for the sake of the round is one I've thought about, but I have no idea what other people would think of that.

3. Staff. Specifically, staff acting in High Command roles like the Provost-Marshall. The connecting thread between these incidents is that they occurred with the explicit backing and approval of High Command, which is IC approval from your boss' boss who is above the law and OOC approval from the staff responsible for enforcing server rules. Any MP operating under the instructions of the Provost-Marshall would be 100% justified in assuming their actions are backed ICly and OOCly by the people who write the rules and that they would be told if what they were doing was incorrect or unlawful. Staff interaction is tons of fun and, as someone who plays CL with some frequency, getting an actual response to your fax can make the round for you right there. But maybe we should take a step back and acknowledge that removing the CO of a military vessel during an active combat operation is a really big deal, especially if that removal was requested by the MPs due to perceived lawbreaking and not the rest of command due to perceived incompetence or malice. I'm not saying that it's never or even rarely acceptable, but it should never be the immediate response to any issue.

A lot of this comes from how new the new marine law and server rules are, and I'm sure we'll work out the kinks with it in time. But I do feel at least some of it is a result of the roles themselves and how we expect them to be behave, so there are definitely changes we can make there as well. Ultimately, I'm confident we'll figure it out and stop incidents like these from happening again without gutting the parts of the game some people truly enjoy or reversing the policy decisions made by staff in order to make things more enjoyable for everyone.

[davidofmk771]

Well maybe that's one thing we need to talk about: faxes.

What power do they hold exactly? Are they truly indications of OOC judgments dictated to the MP staff by admins, or rather suggestions with an implication that there will be no 'back-up'? My take is that faxes are worth exactly what they are, a piece of paper with an official stamp and signature. Some people seem to have the idea that if staff used IC methods to deal with situations, that OOC methods would be used to enforce them if need be, but this makes no sense.

Why even have the mechanic if its gonna be backed up by warnings and bans for those who try to prevent fax-commanded arrests during certain violate situations? I would like to refer to my earlier story: technically, charging the CO with that crime was bullshit, but how could any of us know IC? I only learned later in deadchat what the CO truly did, and I wasn't there during most of the witness interviews. The staff, when writing from the point of view of High Command, the Provost, or W-Y, have to do so from a point of view of a person behind the fax machine, and not the all seeing eye they basically hold.

So lets say a subtle and complex false arrest is ordered on the CO, and during the shuttle hijack, MPs try to arrest him and are killed. Should the people doing so be punished because the staff had to play along to make it IC? The whole point is that it is kept IC to begin with.

Maybe a compromise could be made: recently a very controversial version of this situation occurred, and partially due to that, a deathsquad was called. Obviously many saw this as unreasonable, but it gave me a good idea: a Riot Control/SWAT type ERT, non-responsive to distress beacons like deathsquads, who's job is soley to deal with the arrest of the aCO when ordered by the Provost Marshall. It could be a good middle ground between suggesting the MPs arrest the CO in a bad situation or forcing them to just let it go until after the xenos are taken care of.

This sort of thing often tends to happen at the hijacking stage i've noticed, and I think it's because of how long faxes take to get things done. This way, both the MPs who became invested in the situation over the round are placated, and if there is any violence towards the special ERT, well, who's there to get mad? The MPs? They would then have the right to truly crack down, and it would be their own fault if they were in the line of fire during the arrest. The ERT? They would just be random deads who got to play an extra special role. They should feel so lucky!

In this sort of situation, I see defusing tensions as the best way, and while I dont have the best idea of why these tensions exists sometimes, I think part of is it simply too much investment in one's character and too few punishments that dont boil down to getting kicked out of the game with a 'nananananana you cant play for 30 minutes' snark that always feels inherent to being brigged, no matter how much it is intended. I don't think there is any easy answer to either of those problems, but maybe here we can work one out that both sides of the situation can enjoy?

[Nantei]

MP's are honestly a really well designed xenomorph caste. The only thing I would change is maybe reduce their stun timers a bit.

But really we want shipside antags, we got them. Who needs traitors when the MP's are saboteurs already, right?

[NethIafins]

No

[Amitt0]

Maybe a compromise could be made: recently a very controversial version of this situation occurred, and partially due to that, a deathsquad was called. Obviously many saw this as unreasonable, but it gave me a good idea: a Riot Control/SWAT type ERT, non-responsive to distress beacons like deathsquads, who's job is soley to deal with the arrest of the aCO when ordered by the Provost Marshall. It could be a good middle ground between suggesting the MPs arrest the CO in a bad situation or forcing them to just let it go until after the xenos are taken care of.

This sort of thing often tends to happen at the hijacking stage i've noticed, and I think it's because of how long faxes take to get things done. This way, both the MPs who became invested in the situation over the round are placated, and if there is any violence towards the special ERT, well, who's there to get mad? The MPs? They would then have the right to truly crack down, and it would be their own fault if they were in the line of fire during the arrest. The ERT? They would just be random deads who got to play an extra special role. They should feel so lucky!


Love the riot control ert idea. Gitlab that shit.

I keep my squad marine character seperate from my MP Main to try and avoid ooc grudges against my dudes.

I play MP a lot and have never had a player report made against me.
I play MP to suppress shitters and selfish low RP gimmicks NOT To be a griefer myself.
A lot of players don't read the law page and only glance at it when trying to lawyer up and squirm out of a sentence. This was evident last round I played when I detained a marine for directly disrespecting me multiple times while I was warning another member of his squad.

Disrespect is no longer a separate charge and disrespecting a superior now falls under the blanket insub charge.
I suggest more people read the updated law and procedures because the new system is designed to prevent excessive brig times to help avoid certain MPS from being dick heads.

As for these repeated incidents with COs being arrested too often I dunno. Don't have time to play as much. Maybe a couple rounds a week.

MPs are marines and are on the same side as the rest of the crew. Murdering them because UNGA is shitty.
You don't have trouble from MPs if you don't cause trouble and if an MP is being overbearing or just hunting for an excuse to arrest you then A help about it.

It's just a game, guys.

[Simo94]

>Literal giant man killing Lizards are shredding and eating marines alive planetside, and whats more, these same Lizards are on their way to the Almayer and if it falls possibly our home planet Earth right after, oh god what are we going to do?
>Literally detain the Commander of the operation for wearing a pajama when he shouldnt

idk about you ppl but I find these sorts of situations really ridiculous, the commander (or any high ranking/CiC officers for that matter) shouldn't be detained for such minor charges, and imo unless the CO has gone legitimately insane and is an active threat to the operation all arrests and charges should be saved till after the operation and all Lizards are eliminated, but that wont happen cuz how else will I get my arrest boner off?
also on that topic, can Commanders PLEASE stop ignoring the operation planetside just to focus on executing one guy on the Almayer for 30mins? that would be appreciated too.

and when it comes to admin interventions vs IC escalating, I choose admin intervention every damn time thank you, atleast admins are hand picked individuals who clearly understand what they are dealing with and are aware of consequences unlike random CMPs/MPs, I want MORE admin intervention.

[adrenalinetooth]

Hoe about we take all of the admin focus we used to distribute between all marines before the rules update and condense it towards the MPs? Perhaps even whitelist the CMP role, and give it the equivalent of an XO so they can perform like a CMP without one?Perhaps we add the provost into the standard mix as a whitelisted role, and CMP is the 2nd in command of MPs? This way, trusted players keep the MPs in check and make sure they aren't powerboning.

[Heckenshutze]

MP's are the secret xeno caste, read before it gets deleted

[Casany]

It’s not that MPs are inherently antagonistic, it’s that the staff give them permission to be. If a staff member said, ICly that some shitler MP had full permission to fuck up the COs round and lose the game, the shitler would do it. And it’s not every mod, only a few actually like allowing players to ruin marine rounds.

Just make it so only admin+ can respond to faxes. Then you’d probably get a bit more investigation done hopefully.

[Gnorse]

See, there's an easy fix.
How about we remove the OOC protection MPs get and allow marines to bash their heads in if they go over the top ?
that'll make them think twice, I promise.

[Casany]

See, there's an easy fix.
How about we remove the OOC protection MPs get and allow marines to bash their heads in if they go over the top ?
that'll make them think twice, I promise.

I’d be fine with this