Rules, Meta, and their enforcement.

[JJG]

One thing that I started to notice is constant complains and wars over rules; what is and what isn't meta; what is and what isn't a rule break.

The whole "Xenos can't Meta" slogan while meant to be a joke is actually the ONLY correct way of making a multiplayer game. Players will break rules, staff, because they are people, will give incorrect rulings. None of these problems exist if the mechanics of the game do not allow them to exist. You can't break a rule that is hardcoded into the game.

If marines could go 200% their regular speed by pressing a button and then you make a rule saying that they aren't allowed to press that button, how long do you think it takes before someone presses the button?

So why not have all of these problems fixed by devs in the code and design of the game? Why not mechanically fix them?

• It gives staff more time to help people instead of having to go investigate ahelps.

• No one will get salty over getting an unfair punishment because what they did was in the gray area and some other staff members might have ruled differently.

• And not a single player will get away with breaking a rule because it is straight up impossible to do so.

As an example I am going to use the whole prison meta rush discussion that has been going on for a while.
Solution: The same solution that is already in; Podlocks! Neither side can advance until they are down. Neither side can change when they go down. If you think the marines still hold too much of an advantage, increase the time it takes for the podlocks to go down. This way it requires precisely ZERO staff intervention or attention. People can not meta, if the mechanics of the game don't allow it. Which means, you can remove the rule about metarushing completely.

You don't want people camping the tank ladder? (fix the map, problem solved, good call)

You don't want xenos dragging defibbable corpses from the front all the way back to the hive? Change the code so they straight up can't.

On the other hand this also means embracing the fact that so long as the game allows it, no mechanical abuse of the game is meta.
If xenos can drag corpses and devs don't fix it then its intended and thats the end of the discussion.

What I am trying to say is that trying to enforce so many different rules and meta things using staff (people) is an absolutely horrible idea that does not will not and can never, lead to good results.

[Casany]

They’re not. There are gonna be a multitude of blanket excuses posted here by staff as to why they don’t but the jist of it is that they just don’t.

Don’t expect anything to come of this, sadly. Nothing ever does.

[Jeser]

Man, we were complaining about retarded body dragging for years, just a reminder. There weren't even steps to prevent that, the only change was made that aliens can't devour already dead bodies which is even irrelevant now since we have stupid devour bug that devs don't want to fix, clearly. Like, the only hope new administration will either slap devs team to do at least something or finally admit and make in rules new line that xenos know everything about marines and are allowed play-to-win.

[Nantei]

For dragging corpses I honestly cannot understand why anyone would be in favor of it. Other than the obvious necessity of infected corpses or clearing a nest slot (which would be fixable mechanically as well), there's really no added fun to it. Like, is there anyone out there who is honestly like, "Yes, now I get to drag the spec all the way across the map to ensure he is never revived. That was fun."

Bottom line: I don't think letting xenos hide bodies like it's a fucking easter egg hunt adds anything good to the game. Xenos can't slash to decap corpses for this reason, why are we still allowing them to work around it?

[Lorem123]

Xenos are still allowed to do this because the staff all have a huge xeno bias. It's very blatant and most players are able to see it. Simple as that.

[NethIafins]

So why not have all of these problems fixed by devs in the code and design of the game? Why not mechanically fix them?

• It gives staff more time to help people instead of having to go investigate ahelps.

• No one will get salty over getting an unfair punishment because what they did was in the gray area and some other staff members might have ruled differently.

• And not a single player will get away with breaking a rule because it is straight up impossible to do so.

Fixing shit takes time that could be spent on new features/maps

As an example I am going to use the whole prison meta rush discussion that has been going on for a while.
Solution: The same solution that is already in; Podlocks! Neither side can advance until they are down. Neither side can change when they go down. If you think the marines still hold too much of an advantage, increase the time it takes for the podlocks to go down. This way it requires precisely ZERO staff intervention or attention. People can not meta, if the mechanics of the game don't allow it. Which means, you can remove the rule about metarushing completely.

You can rush podlocks on deployment with C4, if that's what you talking about. See big red.
If we are talking about non-destructable podlocks, then queen can't escape initial confinement. See prison.

You don't want people camping the tank ladder? (fix the map, problem solved, good call)

You can't "just fix the map". You need to find problem and check if the solution does not induce more problems.
Current tank ladder is like 4th iteration and we still have issues

You don't want xenos dragging defibbable corpses from the front all the way back to the hive? Change the code so they straight up can't.

Then you will have clogged up hives and light everywhere because marine light doesn't turn off when they die. If it did, then medics won't be able to find them.

On the other hand this also means embracing the fact that so long as the game allows it, no mechanical abuse of the game is meta.
If xenos can drag corpses and devs don't fix it then its intended and thats the end of the discussion.

Devs can't fix shit that appears just now. Devs can't fix stuff that, if fixed, induces more pain and suffering than not fixing it

What I am trying to say is that trying to enforce so many different rules and meta things using staff (people) is an absolutely horrible idea that does not will not and can never, lead to good results.

If you have slightest thought as commander/XO/queen that your actions will be considered meta-y - ahelp
if you are to attack spawnpoint of another team before 12:45 - ahelp

That's all I can give you until Managers or Host come in

[CABAL]

Embrace what I have learned: Can't enforce it, Can't allow it, then ignore it.
Nobody will achieve nothing besides constant arguments. When one, or both sides hold their position as hard as Mature Revager (666) dragging recently killed corpse from other marines, then you will not have compromise.

Do what other side is doing: They can't enforce it, they can't allow it, so they ignore it. So do we (atleast I).

[Sir Lordington]

Dragging corpses is not a problem.

[JJG]

Dragging corpses is not a problem.

This isn't about corpse dragging or any of the other things. Those were examples and that's it.
The point is that if you do not want something to happen you mechanically fix it instead of trying to have staff enforce it. Because staff enforcement, not only takes a lot of time but also is prone to error because a person is making a decision and people aren't perfect. It's an attitude change. By allowing almost everything that the mechanics of the game make possible you cut down on rules, cut down on salt, cut down on required staff to enforce them and prevent people from doing things you don't want them to do permanently. It removes gray areas and makes the entire experience for players as well as staff more streamlined so I don't understand why this isn't a goal worth striving towards.

[Sir Lordington]

• I'm in favor of the players governing themselves while we provide the tools to allow them to do so and try to make sure no one is griefing. I'm going to look closely at the Mutiny, Battlefield Execution, and "can't read this pill bottle"-type of mechanics and rules. In my mind and in a perfect world, all but the General Rules would be removed. Mechanics could enforce the rest. That's not doable right now but it's a goal.

Nobody said it's not worth working towards. It's being worked on, but it's not easy and some things may not even be doable. It takes time and effort on the part of the developers.

[Lorem123]

We know the staff are never going to deal with xeno metagaming, at least be honest about it and flat-out say that you guys allow xeno players to metagame and powergame as much as they want.

[Casany]

Literally, go into the rules. Put under examples of what is NOT metagaming “xenos dragging corpses” and anything else that is fine, and you wouldn’t have people complaining. It’s basically already an unwritten rule and as shown these past few months staff don’t care what the players have to say.

[Davidchan]

I'd be happy for the staff to just provide examples of what is metagaming for xenos, since they basically get to do whatever they want as long as the queen didn't tell them not to.

[Nantei]

Dragging corpses is not a problem.

I've actually had staff tell me it is before. The ruling has been, unsurprisingly, inconsistent. Xeno powergaming/metagaming is rarely punished. Many times I have seen xenos melt the medivendors on Big Red before landing, melt all the weapons on crashed ship. Xenos aren't supposed to have a complex understanding of tools, they shouldn't know what a medivendor does, and even if they do they have no reason to break it because they don't know any more humans are coming. It's blatant powergaming, but I have given up on ever ahelping it. Just like how a xeno will devour you and just keep you in gay baby jail until you are mercifully deleted and ghosted. It's an exploit, but nobody seems to care.

I also still disagree, just let them smash suit lights and stop making xenos an easter bunny for cadavers.

[JJG]

And here we go about the corpse dragging again. Its not about the corpse dragging. I am saying that all things that are allowed by the mechanics should simply be allowed. No gray area, no fuss. If you can mechanically corpse drag than its allowed and tough shit. (Even if its some bull crap)
But this logic should not be applied selectively but to everything.

[CSolaris]

Then you will have clogged up hives and light everywhere because marine light doesn't turn off when they die. If it did, then medics won't be able to find them.

False. Medics have their own shoulder lamp as well as the Health HUD to help us see who’s still revivable or not.

Also, corpse dragging away a body that was freshly killed, but not decapped, is indeed an issue. If you’re going to put a limit on how many of x - role such as spec can be in a squad, then it’s going to be a problem. Xenos will corpse drag and slash any marine that isn’t a PFC because they know they’re that much more valuable. Don’t tell us that it isn’t a problem because a majority of us experience otherwise. Xeno bias.

[NethIafins]

Your shoulder lamp doesn't cover entire screen.

What should be done is probably make marine roles indistinguishable

[Nantei]

Your shoulder lamp doesn't cover entire screen.

What should be done is probably make marine roles indistinguishable

It wouldn't fix the problem at all honestly. It's an issue for all marines, not just specs. And yeah, this is derailing but that's to be expected when you bring up ye olde corpse drag. I will never understand the resistance to it. It's not fun for anyone, why not mechanically disable it if we can, and fix the issues that require it to be enabled currently? Xenos can clean their nests, marines don't get turned into a scavenger hunt. More fun for everyone, no?