A Depressing Mutiny Trend

[FGRSentinel]

With news that Squad Preference is going away, with one of the reasons given being that it's hoped to improve the image of MPs, I've made a point of reading up on and keeping track of major incidents involving MPs and I've noticed a fairly concerning trend related to another change that happened a while back. As the title says, it's about the current Mutiny rules. The last time I was involved in a large-scale mutiny, there were a fair number of people killed or denied medical treatment... by MPs and SOs in a round where the CO was taken prisoner almost immediately after the mutiny started.

Between my own experiences and what I've heard ingame and on the forum, it seems that half the MPs and Command Staff either don't understand or don't care that the protections of the current Mutiny rules extends to mutineers as well, but not only that... They also occasionally exploit the fact that the mutiny rules prevent the CO's death and fail to provide any defined success conditions to refuse to accept that the mutiny actually managed to relieve the CO. I actually remember a round where they were so stubborn in their refusal to accept this that they continued to fight the mutiny even after the XO and 3 (if not all four) SOs had joined the mutiny, the CO had stopped giving orders, and the XO was more or less officially in charge of the ship and OP... Basically, they kept it going so long that you could probably mistake the CO and MPs for mutineers. I'm sure more than just that one round have been ruined by things like this, but that's the only one I was in.

Has anyone else noticed this or is it just me?

[Renomaki]

A mutiny often depends on a number of factors, the CO being one of the biggest factors.

For instance, some (if not MOST) COs are very quick to pull out the smartgun the moment they get word of a mutiny, wordlessly slaughtering the mutineers the second they come in sight of them. Very commonly they'll even go so far as to abandon the entire mission just to call back an army of loyalist to assist them, throwing the game just so they could remain in a position of power.

... Now that I think about it, I think that is the MAJORITY of COs... I remember one time as a CMP where a mutiny was taking place and I tried to deescalate it, but my CO (I can't recall who, think it was crunk or something) was incredibly bloodthirsty and waving his gun around, refusing any attempt at negotiation, which eventually resulted in a bloody fight that got a lot of good people killed. I can't remember who fired the first shot, but I know for sure it wasn't me.

I think some people tend to get a tad too excited to get to shoot their own marines for some reason, failing to realize how such actions may give them a bad reputation in the future. I don't mean to brag or anything, but I had several mutinies in my time, and every single one of them I calmly talked to the mutineers, engaged in diplomacy, and eventually went into exile within the confines of my office/bedroom, all while behaving as a proper officer would.

Heck, I had a lot of memorable moments BECAUSE of mutinies, such as the time my troops under my command grew tired of my brutal tactics and kicked me out of power, only to win them back when I helped kill a queen with a grenade launcher during a vital moment. I lost the respect of my men one moment, only to become a hero in their eyes the next. And that isn't even talking about all the times where I got booted, only to have my staff begging for me to come back.

A proper officer should not be so quick to draw their smartgun, and in the event of mutiny should either attempt to regain the loyalty of those that betray him, or accept defeat and calmly spend the duration of the mission in a sort of exile within their office, sipping tea and checking in on the new commander every now and then to ensure the replacement is doing well.

[FGRSentinel]

Yeah, that's the kind of thing I mean. The worst part is, a lot of COs know they can't be killed by the mutineers under the Mutiny Rules, but they can BE mutineers whenever they want. This results in things like a CO who has 20 marines walk into the CIC without warning to remove his headset and strap him to a chair still refusing to step down because they know they just have to stall for time until the MPs and loyalist marines show up to rescue them, then they can just walk through the aftermath and decap all the wounded mutineers if they want and nobody can say anything about it. The current rules require the mutineers to trust the CO to have some common decency and accept defeat, but more often than not it seems like mutinies just drag on and on because the mutineers don't want to risk a ban for accidentially decapitating someone while the MPs and CO just commit war crimes half the time. My rule of thumb is, at this point, that if the mutineers start permakilling people, it usually means the Xenos are going to win anyways or it's reached a point where there's literally no other way for it to de-escalate except to put people down permanently..

[RunAwayScientist]

It seems like the first few mutinies after the rule change were cheeky, amusing, interesting, and warranted.

Now they're getting borderline.

[FGRSentinel]

Not entirely sure. The one I mentioned that went on for over half an hour was actually valid in every way and was meant to force the CO to rescind an order that seriously hurt the Marines (and which we later found out actually violated a serious taboo) and the mutiny started with Charlie swarming the bridge to take the CO hostage. It was the loyalists that fired the first shot and kept the mutiny going after that.

The thing is, you can usually tell the difference between what I call a "rule-valid" mutiny (one where the Mutineers think it out and try to keep the mutiny legal) and a glorified lynch mob by how the mutineers behave. In the one I mentioned, the mutiny was more a peaceful protest (except for the taking the CO hostage part) until the MPs and a loyalist Bravo swarmed in and started shooting everyone up. The firefight ended with no clear victor, but the SO that called Bravo in tried to permakill two Charlies after the firefight ended while MPs arrested medics helping people on either side while the CO apparently tried to BE the Bravo SL, the guy that led his squad to help rescue him. On the other hand, Charlie walked in with unloaded guns and both myself and their SL did everything we could to keep any shots from being fired. There's a point where you have to look at it and say "yeah, the Command Staff and MPs were just doing shit for the hell of it."

My issue is that people seem to have no problem questioning the legality of every mutiny that starts, even when the mutineers follow every rule until they get fed up with the situation almost an hour later and it's the loyalists making all the rule breaks. It just seems like COs and MPs are aware of the loopholes or gaps in the mutiny rules that allow them to basically do whatever they want or make it nearly impossible for the mutineers to "win" without someone breaking a rule, while every responsible player in a mutiny is aware that the smallest mistake from RNG risks them getting in trouble. If the first response someone gives on hearing about a mutiny that covered 75% of a round and the MPs tried to permakill people after the CO was taken prisoner in the first minute of the mutiny (which should have ended it in success for the mutineers) is to say "it probably wasn't even a proper mutiny" then I think there's an issue regarding people thinking the mutineers always break the rules, as well as the rules not giving a way for a mutiny to end quickly for circumstances like that.

[Davidchan]

Simple, add a termination terminal to the Bridge that wipes access from tags/IDs inserted. If mutineers gain control of the bridge and a CO/XO/SO (aCO) ID is inserted and wiped, an automatic announcement is made from High Command rescinding the authority of the previous commander and giving a Lawful Order to CMP/MPs to detain the terminated aCO for the remainder of the operation. Mutiny ends with this action, and any further attempts by loyalist to retake control of the bridge must be initiated as a second mutiny, otherwise its an illegal mutiny and is punished accordingly, IC and OOC.

[FGRSentinel]

This would work, except that the terminal should require a second ID be inserted to transfer command to so the CO's access isn't lost forever to the crew. The issue is that, as it stands, any possible way to end a mutiny successfully for the mutineers requires either the MPs and aCO to be graceful enough in defeat to not kill the round with their refusal to accept the situation or an active admin that's willing to have HC receive a fax reporting the mutiny took over the bridge (with their reasons for doing so) and respond with a fax or announcement stating that HC supports the mutiny. The former will never happen and the latter is unlikely because most people are either unaware that's a possible option or are afraid HC will send a strike team to kill the mutineers or something.

[ThePiachu]

Yeah, that's the kind of thing I mean. The worst part is, a lot of COs know they can't be killed by the mutineers under the Mutiny Rules, but they can BE mutineers whenever they want. This results in things like a CO who has 20 marines walk into the CIC without warning to remove his headset and strap him to a chair still refusing to step down because they know they just have to stall for time until the MPs and loyalist marines show up to rescue them, then they can just walk through the aftermath and decap all the wounded mutineers if they want and nobody can say anything about it.

Um, no. The "The Acting Commander must be given a chance to stand down peacefully." - as in you tell him "Step down now", and if they say "no", they are fair game for forceful removal. You can weld entrances to CIC or close the shutters down to prevent others from coming in to buy yourself the minute or two you need to force the CO to step down.

Secondly, the CO decapping mutineers is just Battlefield Execution - also something not to be taken lightly.

[FGRSentinel]

See, it doesn't say that in the rules. It says that neither side can intentionally permakill anyone involved and that everyone needs to be given treatment, which is generally assumed to include the CO. If this isn't the case, it's not exactly made clear and it still relies on the CMP and MPs being willing to admit the mutiny was successful for it to end there.

[Grubstank]

Yeah, I really feel something like David's idea is necessary. There needs to be a defined "end game" for mutinies. Even if they start well, they inevitably turn to a pile of poo.

Following up FGRSentinal's point - perhaps CO access could be transferred to the next highest rank automatically (ignoring cards that have already been wiped)? Ie -- CO to XO, XO to CE... although just putting in a different ID would probably be less coding, and much less messy

[Build_R_]

I saw a mutiny where an admin in OOC indicated that the mutiny has now ended and to treat everyone involved, although this works it should really be possible to end the mutiny ICly and mechanically.

[Brotemis]

I would think a change would be needed to what can be done to the commander. If by any means, the commander does not surrender peacefully, I would wager that would open them up to being blown the fuck away, including decapitation.

Why? Because it is the SUREFIRE only way to ensure that a mutiny is recognized as successful. The commander was given a chance to peacefully stand down and refused. It can be safely assumed anyone involved with the mutiny would be executed and/or put into perma and permanently removed the round anyway.

[solidfury7]

I saw a mutiny where an admin in OOC indicated that the mutiny has now ended and to treat everyone involved, although this works it should really be possible to end the mutiny ICly and mechanically.

That was due do it being a HUGE mutiny which had the crew outright destroying each other in a huge CIC battle.

It was easy to rule because the CO left the ship via pod.