Shot a person who moved on purpose during an aim...

[Mattmaster77]

Beyond ID: Mattmaster77

Character name: Carl Winston

Admin who banned you: LordKilly

Initial duration: 1440 minutes

Duration remaining: (Ban was issued recently) 23.2 hours. (Was 23.9 but it took me that long)

Reason for ban: Griefed Mark Hanford, shot him, continued and then argued how, "He moved on my aim, I couldn't stop" when he could've stopped aiming or healed him.. (copied straight from window of the round I was banned on)

Your appeal, including evidence (an http://www.imgur.com album is recommended for multiple screenshots): Okay, gotta explain what happened first, I saw Mark and Natasha arguing in the hallway of the Nostromo, I was an LO (randomly picked, was trying to get CO) trying to get a Nostromo Survivor: Fiora to get an ID, very shortly later she entered the briefing room, shortly following me, I convince her to get one and then Mark puts Natasha on the table, throws her, and punches her, all in front of me and the survivor. I pulled out my pistol (not the revolver) and aim my gun at him, toggled firerate (so he couldn't run away with one shot and cause manhunt), and called for MP(Han). When the MP did arrive, Mark moved knowing he would get shot and said "SEE?! ARREST HIM!" or something along the line where a person tries to get rid of a person trying to stop them. He then continued to move as the MP moved towards him and thus caused me to fire more shots roughly 5-6 that hit him, and then fell unconscious. The MP dragged him off and Mark later succumbed to his wounds. (SIDE NOTES: I remember seeing him going to a locker with an ID of an LO with it still there, but when I looked back there, both were gone, I assumed he stole it as well. In LOOC people said the person playing Mark was banned for strapping C4 on a person for pissing Mark off, and people said it wasn't my fault, and if there was someone to blame, it was the MP. I had a flash earlier, had to use it on two people trying to run away after they broke into the bridge when the MP was coming, and I couldn't get another, if I did have one, this probably wouldn't be happening right now. This was also the same round where there was the Alpha or Riot in the beginning of the round/lobby.) When I got Fiora their ID (finally), I got PMed by Lord saying that I griefed him. Not sure if Mark ahelped so I could get banned or Lord just wanted to stop "grief." We debated over the case, he said I could have given him medical attention, I said none of us were medics, he said that I could have stopped aiming, I said he can just run away with a bullet and outrun the MP who had armor on, and he said that the MP could have stunned him when he had a riot shield and a baton out, once again I said that he could outrun him, he also said that he didn't want to hear my side of the story completely from start to finish. Then a round restart happened due to marines suddenly killing all aliens, I closed window after he said I was going to be banned, but I then came back to the round that ensued after I vented about it, which didn't take too long, and was banned after a tiny debate. I'll post logs of the round that I was banned on. Not sure if the players of Han, Fiora, and Natasha will see this, so Its just my account and Lord's for now.

-- Moderator private message --
Mod PM from-LordeKilly: You there?
Click on the moderator's name to reply.
PM to-Admins: Were you the person talking to me before
-- Moderator private message --
Mod PM from-LordeKilly: Yes.
Click on the moderator's name to reply.
PM to-Admins: You do know you are listening to a past griefer over me.
-- Moderator private message --
Mod PM from-LordeKilly: I'm aware, but this situation is your fault, because you could have fixed it in so many different ways.
Click on the moderator's name to reply.
PM to-Admins: Name them.
-- Moderator private message --
Mod PM from-LordeKilly: You could've fixed him, cloned him, stopped shooting, had the MP stun him, then stop shooting.
Click on the moderator's name to reply.
-- Moderator private message --
Mod PM from-LordeKilly: A long list.
Click on the moderator's name to reply.
PM to-Admins: Name it, I'm here all day buddy.
-- Moderator private message --
Mod PM from-LordeKilly: That's the list.
Click on the moderator's name to reply.
PM to-Admins: Thats not a long list.
-- Moderator private message --
Mod PM from-LordeKilly: It's pretty long. You chose to do nothing.
Click on the moderator's name to reply.
PM to-Admins: Lets see, he could have ran off and made it a bitch for the MP to get him, if there was an extra flash in the meeting room, I would have flashed him, but there wasn't.
-- Moderator private message --
Mod PM from-LordeKilly: Listen, i'm issuing a ban, if you think you can prove it's not your fault, appeal on the forums.
Click on the moderator's name to reply.
-- Moderator private message --
Mod PM from-LordeKilly: I'll give you a link and all.
Click on the moderator's name to reply.
PM to-Admins: You will be hearing about this.
-- Moderator private message --
Mod PM from-LordeKilly: The admins may take your side, or they wont.
Click on the moderator's name to reply.
You have been banned by lordekilly.
Reason: Griefed Mark Hanford, shot him, continued and then argued how, "He moved on my aim, I couldn't stop" when he could've stopped aiming or healed him..
This is a temporary ban, it will be removed in 1440 minutes.
To try to resolve this matter head to viewforum.php?f=76
Connection died.

One thing is what I thought was weird is that he said I could have cloned him when the MP was the one who dragged him off, I had no clue he had died from the wounds that Mark seemed to have wanted. I provided my reasons to his solutions to the "situation." Its your choice if you unban from CM or have me wait. This is my first post on this forums, I only did it because I wanted to continue having fun on CM until another server is back up, and I will be staying on this when the alpha comes out if the server that I usually play on is up, since its new and cool and stuff (I wasn't one of the rioters during the round where people said Alpha or Riot.) and I will try the best I can to avoid any more incidents like the one I posted from happening, but if people like Mark who probably did it on purpose to did it to get me banned I can't really guarantee it will be avoided.

[LordeKilly]

Alright, after speaking with Mark, he provided logs that show how Matt proceded to FOLLOW him after Mark ran, still aiming and firing, which he could have stopped. Matt had continued to shoot him until Mark almost died. From what I saw, the MP was there, could've dealt with a running Hanford, but the LO took the law into his own hands, [which is also a rule violation] and shot him dead.

[Aeleto]

Hans 'Majoren' Gruber says, "Wow, calm down"
Mark Hanford says, "MAKE THAT GUY STOP."
Carl Winston says, "Stop."
Carl Winston fires the M4A3 Service Pistol by reflex!
Hans 'Majoren' Gruber is hit by the bullet in the chest!
Hans 'Majoren' Gruber blocks the bullet with the riot shield!
Carl Winston fires the M4A3 Service Pistol by reflex!
Carl Winston says, "Moving"
Mark Hanford is hit by the bullet in the chest!
Derek Ford [Sulaco] says, "Carl Winston, you have people lined up at your station"
Carl Winston fires the M4A3 Service Pistol by reflex!
Something feels like it shattered in your chest!
Mark Hanford screams!
Mark Hanford is hit by the bullet in the chest!
The wound on your chest widens with a nasty ripping voice.
Carl Winston fires the M4A3 Service Pistol by reflex!
Hans 'Majoren' Gruber is hit by the bullet in the chest!
Hans 'Majoren' Gruber blocks the bullet with the riot shield!
Carl Winston fires the M4A3 Service Pistol by reflex!
Mark Hanford is hit by the bullet in the chest!

I've only moved after the MP came, and even with the MP right at your face, you kept shooting me (shooting Hans on the process) and even went around him to keep the line of fire. Luckily did not die because the docs managed to treat me in time. Also, regarding my issue with Natasha, all I've ever did was table her, then throw to somewhere far to avoid further harassment because she was punching me earlier.

A unarmed doc is clearly a threat, right?

[Juninho77]

Oh, boy. What a cascade of bad decisions we have here.

First of all, before I put my thoughts in here, let me start by saying that I did not check the logs yet. They will only be available to me tomorrow, by which I think it's gonna be to late to say anything at all. Now let's get to my thoughts.

---

Everyone's wrong.
Yes, Killy, even you.

Mattmaster77: As a LO, you should not be drawing your weapons unless you have a violent marine. There is a disagreement over whether Aeleto punched someone or not, but even so you shouldn't be drawing your weapon that easily. It's for emergencies.

With regards to your enforcing Marine Law, I don't see a particular problem with it. Pretty much with western-based laws, a citizen has the right to arrest someone if they "believe on reasonable grounds that the other person is committing or has just committed an offence." If that's true for citizens, I'd say it is also true for a higher-ranking officer in a military ship.

And with regards to the shooting, you should not have kept shooting the marine after they attempted to move. Yes, I can see how you can make a bad call in the heat of the moment, but enforcing the Marine Law while a MP is right in front of you is wrong. End of story.

---

Hans 'Majoren' Gruber, the MP:He should have stunned someone. Either the marine or the LO. The situation got out of hand because of omission from the MP.

And, on a side note, riot shield and stun baton? Really? Grab a f***ing taser.

---

LordeKilly: I understand that this may be taken out of context. If that's the case, I apologize in advance. But this worries me:

Mod PM from-LordeKilly: Listen, i'm issuing a ban, if you think you can prove it's not your fault, appeal on the forums.

In Law there's a thing called "presumption of innocence." Take a look. It's a very handy tool for staff, and I think everyone should apply this to their judgments.

---

Aeleto: At this point I am making a great deal of effort to remain impartial. Aeleto, or Mark, is a player whom I value very much. He's an incredibly efficient doctor, and having him in my squad always made me feel a little safer.

But I still think Aeleto's actions were the pivot of this whole situation. I am referring to moving around in order to cause Mattmaster77 to automatically shoot him after the MP arrived. No, Matt shouldn't have shot you. And still, I believe you moved because you knew you'd be putting the LO in trouble. You invited the LO to shoot you, and the LO complied (and this was the one mistake from the LO's side). You also went behind the MP, I believe to make the MP be shot and involve as many people as you could into this shitstorm.

I believe you Intentionally caused someone to shoot you by taking advantage of BYOND's atrocious controls when you knew you would get admin assistance in case you died, and you knew that the LO would be in trouble for shooting you. This (inviting harm to get someone else in trouble) is an issue that Rahlzel (link for staff only) has predicted in the past. I think that doing something like that... Well, from an RP standpoint it's not acceptable, and from an OOC standpoint it's just appaling.

I hope I'm wrong about this, but knowing you I think you'd be just sly enough to do something like that.

---

All that said, I think this punishment was extremely excessive, especially considering that Mattmaster77 is a first offender and that Aeleto did not die. There are some cases in which griefing is clear-cut and we have a very black-and-white situation, with bad guys on one side and innocent people on the other. This is not one of such cases. From what I read here, I believe everyone made a mistake. Paraphrasing V, certainly there are some more responsible than others, but if you want to find the guilty, just look up from this post.

My suggestion is that this ban is lifted.

[apophis775]

Ok. I have investigated the logs personally (for the second time, as I was contacted by another server host on behalf of Matt about the incident and investigated earlier).

The issue comes down to this:

Once the MP arrived, Matt should have lowered his gun and gone back to work. At that point, it's not his job or concern to enforce Marine Law. the ONLY person beyond an MP who can enforce marine law, is the commander.


I read through, around 70 pages of logs, and from what I gather, others made aggressive moves on Aeleto first. I'm not sure how he ended up with the Id (it doesn't log who picks up what items), but I do know, that taking an ID is NOT a crime the Lo should be killing someone with. If appears, Aeleto was not the inital aggressor (that goes to "pyro" the marine who attacked him first, and several times), and I'm going to assume from the fact that he died to shit-bullets from the LO handgun, he wasn't wearing marine armor, so he was either a researcher, medic, or unarmed marine.

As Such, EVEN IF HE WAS MOVING, you should have ceased fire. AFter you hit him the first few times, there was no way, he was going to get away, especially with an MP there.

The original ban STANDS and will NOT be removed.

In the future, leave enforcing the laws to the MPs if you are an LO. If you NEED to hold someone until an MP arrives, MAKE DAMN WELL SURE that you release them once the MP arrives. Killing another unconsenting marine (there are ways to kill a "consenting" marine with RP) is punishable by 24 hour ban, pretty much no exceptions unless it was an obvious accident. Which this was not, while I don't think your intent was to grief, I do believe that you over-stepped your bounds as a LO, and broke Marine rule 1, that marines are NOT to use lethal force on one another.


As soon as the MP was there, you should have lowered your weapon, and I did hear from a witness, that you gave a bit of chase, after he tried to break line-of-sight (if anyone else witnessed the event, please contact me).


HOWEVER, Aeleto, you KNOW that the gun would hvae fired if you moved, so you had no reason to move. You were the victim in this, but consider yourself being watched more closely by me., because the situation is still a bit questionable.


If there is anything to be learned from this it's the following: LET MPS DO THEIR JOB. Don't take the law into your own hands, if your not the commander or an MP.

[Clayton_Kelly]

With regards to your enforcing Marine Law, I don't see a particular problem with it. Pretty much with western-based laws, a citizen has the right to arrest someone if they "believe on reasonable grounds that the other person is committing or has just committed an offence." If that's true for citizens, I'd say it is also true for a higher-ranking officer in a military ship.

You're absolutely correct, and I may be wrong on some details, but there is a certain extent that this applies too in general for the United States; that being - a citizen can arrest someone committing a felony and not just any offense. Which is usually a murder, burglary, or rape.

I know i'm not contributing as a witness in this case, but I thought it might be useful for admins to know for future reference if they rely on such things. My apologies for intruding.

[apophis775]

I restored the last post, but here's the thing:

Marine Law and our rules SPECIFICALLY STATES that ONLY MPs and the COMMANDER can enforce the law.