Legit reasons to make defense on Sulaco and new rule

[Jeser]

So, they added this rule.

Building Defenses on the Sulaco - Marines may not build defenses on the Sulaco before the Queen sends/receives drop pods/shuttles for the first time. Doing so is to be treated as metagaming and may be punished with a ban.

before the Queen sends/receives drop pods/shuttles for the first time.

And now, please, explain, how the fuck should we know that it was Queen? Maybe it was one stupid and coward enough MP/command staff, that doesn't want to say, that it was he/she, who sent/called shuttle? Or it can be Liason-android, who secretly has order to let aliens to breed more. Since he have access to shuttle and shitty politic of W-Y, it's totally IC possible. We don't have system on console that shows, from which console (Bridge/hangar/planetside/transport itself) shuttle/pod was called/sent last time. (By the way, why we don't have such fine and logical system?)

Before that rule, I saw three legit reasons to make some defense and put guard in hangar:

1. All marines evacuated from planetside. Suddenly, shuttle is flying down there, no one admits, that he sent it. Checking cams: "Holly shit, aliens infesting shuttle! We need marines to hangar in case shuttle will be called! It has aliens on board!" In one round, because of some problem with cameras, they were melted but still functional somehow. I still don't understand why marines were said guilty and meta in this case. Can anyone tell me, were cameras from shuttle removed/fixed?
2. Aliens attacking Sulaco and, by miracle, not prepared marines manage to fuck aliens up. Now marines know, that aliens can use shuttle. New rule has only this reason.
3. Some wild alien sneacks on shuttle, get killed on shuttle or escapds from it and get killed a bit later somewhere in maintence after murdering CMO and researcher (I remember that fucking runner). Marines now know, that they are vulnerable here, more aliens can sneak on shuttle before shuttle take off, kill marines on shuttle and then invade Sulaco. Common sense advises to seal hangar area and leave only one exit and put MPs there for face control to not let any more alien freaks to sneak on Sulaco.

Also, there is 4th reason, debatable, but I think it is still logical.

• If marines are sure, that aliens are sentient. How they can claim that? If aliens tries to communicate in the beginning of round, not just watch after marines, but communicate through /me and hisses, then Queen starts whisper to marines, saying something, if aliens keeps doing definitely not animal things (like, for example, stealing dislodged girders from engineers. You shouldn't understand, what it is and you shouldn't steal them. It's look very suspicious. By the way, I think aliens don't know what mines and grenades are from beginning.)

So, conclusion: you took from marines two legit reasons to build Sulaco defense, added debatable for interpreting new rule. You left no choice for marines, this rule definitely will be broken by marines, because now if marines were fucked up, evacuated, even if they know, that aliens are on shuttle, they can't set up defenses untill shuttle will took off from planet, and you can easily miss that moment, because most of marines by unknown reason can't even see shuttle display, looks like some special IDs improve sight. And MPs and command always too busy doing... something, to watch over shuttle. You are lucky if you have special pilot for it. You can barely make some defense in that time and prepare marines for defense, and if aliens have 2-3 3rd Tiers onboard, marines have very high chances to lose without mine fields and rocket launchers.

Question of Sulaco defenses can't be resolved through adding new rules. It will just cause disbalance and more rule breaking. It should be made through game mechanics. We have two good ideas that easily can be merged: this one and new shuttle design, but I couldn't find that post. So, will you implement these suggestions and change rule to be more exact?

[Rahlzel]

And now, please, explain, how the fuck should we know that it was Queen?

The only way the shuttle moves aliens is if the Queen uses the console. You'll know she moved it because when it arrives, Xenos will pour out of it.

[Jeser]

The only way the shuttle moves aliens is if the Queen uses the console. You'll know she moved it because when it arrives, Xenos will pour out of it.

And now marines are dead. Great game with only one gates.

First, Queen can launch shuttle from ground console or it is forbidden? Second:

Maybe it was one stupid and coward enough MP/command staff, that doesn't want to say, that it was he/she, who sent/called shuttle? Or it can be Liason-android, who secretly has order to let aliens to breed more. Since he have access to shuttle and shitty politic of W-Y, it's totally IC possible.

Last what marine will think of is that those fucking creatures, that has only big sharp claws and don't have access to console like marines, can use consoles. It's too unrealistic to believe, even if it so. Marines will anyway blame MPs and command staff for being deadly stupid. They don't do that, cause of failed RP in situation with shuttle.

[Steelpoint]

This new ruling reminds me of that damn joke I heard about Ripley and Hicks arguing if the Aliens cutting the power is considered metagaming.

Honestly this rule simply make it that Marines have to forfeit logic in game, and this whole situation is a outcome of a poorly designed hanger bay and dropship that punishes attackers.

[Jeser]

Honestly this rule simply make it that Marines have to forfeit logic in game.

This is main idea. This rule tell marines to not use common sense, logic and survival instinct. It provokes to being broken, more or less. As I said, it should be resolved through mechanics, not new rules.

[Kukeke11]

this rule is for situations when Marines make defenses without even a slightest threat of aliens coming on board. And that happened today, I was marine came back from planetside decided to go upstairs and boom turf is full of landmines and fking emitters and fake doors have also been set up.

[Jeser]

this rule is for situations when Marines make defenses without even a slightest threat of aliens coming on board. And that happened today, I was marine came back from planetside decided to go upstairs and boom turf is full of landmines and fking emitters and fake doors have also been set up.

If there was already alien on shuttle, it is logical. If there wasn't any aliens on Sulaco yet, this is metagame, it's simple.

[Steelpoint]

I fully agree that the insane defences like putting walls and girders next to the dropship landing is insane and stupid, but basic defences like barricades and checkpoints for when its very obvious Aliens are taking the shuttle should not be banned.

My earlier proposals include something like making the dropship land in a random fashion, such as it landing two tiles away from its normal position, as well as making the Dropship more open so you can't just block the doors and force the Aliens through a 1 tile wide exit.

[Jeser]

I fully agree that the insane defences like putting walls and girders next to the dropship landing is insane and stupid, but basic defences like barricades and checkpoints for when its very obvious Aliens are taking the shuttle should not be banned.

My earlier proposals include something like making the dropship land in a random fashion, such as it landing two tiles away from its normal position, as well as making the Dropship more open so you can't just block the doors and force the Aliens through a 1 tile wide exit.

I said, we have two awesome ideas: increase landing pad, where nothing can be made and mines can't be planted, for two tiles in all directions and change shuttle model to that, what one user created, just a bit improve it. It will be pretty good.

[apophis775]

Spoilers:

If the marines fuck up so much, that the aliens arrive EN MASSE on the sulaco. It's GG no RE.

You might be able to hold out, but you won't be able to win. The Sulaco map was originally designed with that in mind.

Because if your back on the sulaco, YOU'VE LOST. If you have capable marines, you should be defending that fob, to do everything in your power to maintain a foothold, not take 2 losses and pop back to the ship for tea and crackers.

[Jeser]

Spoilers:

If the marines fuck up so much, that the aliens arrive EN MASSE on the sulaco. It's GG no RE.

You might be able to hold out, but you won't be able to win. The Sulaco map was originally designed with that in mind.

Because if your back on the sulaco, YOU'VE LOST. If you have capable marines, you should be defending that fob, to do everything in your power to maintain a foothold, not take 2 losses and pop back to the ship for tea and crackers.

Apop, I know and agree with this politic, it bring more fun and adrenaline, but you are deprive us from elementary logic. If alien want to have fun sneaking and running on Sulaco, making all Sulaco alerted and searching of it, and after killing that alien humans decide to close hangar and remain only one exit, it's aliens problems, and not marines meta. You know difference between alien and marine? Marine is human and he has self-surviving instinct and that is first priority. Aliens simply follow Queen orders. And if Queen order runner to run into FoB, start randomly slash marines, make stir and do that till death, runner WILL OBEY. And will die there. If marine will get order to hold the FoB, while other evacuating, he can start faltering and leave his position and run to shuttle. Marines SHOULD and WILL use any possibility to survive. Not everyone of them are heroes. And that means, if some alien sneaks on Sulaco and get killed after that, there are big chances to more aliens sneak on shuttle. Only retarded will leave hangar not sealed after that. I don't see in your rule anything about alien sneaks on Sulaco without Queen help. That means, you want retarded marines.

Marines are not limited in thinking as aliens are. They can foresee events on information they have. If they already know, that aliens breed with humans as hosts, they will foresee that every trapped marine will become new alien. And if alien sneaks on shuttle, they can foresee, that more aliens can and very possibly do that in future.

[Kukeke11]

Spoilers:

If the marines fuck up so much, that the aliens arrive EN MASSE on the sulaco. It's GG no RE.

You might be able to hold out, but you won't be able to win. The Sulaco map was originally designed with that in mind.

Because if your back on the sulaco, YOU'VE LOST. If you have capable marines, you should be defending that fob, to do everything in your power to maintain a foothold, not take 2 losses and pop back to the ship for tea and crackers.

Actually the marines who didn't like meta defense fought aliens without meta defenses in hangar and managed to kill all of them and round was won XD so yeah

[Jeser]

Actually the marines who didn't like meta defense fought aliens without meta defenses in hangar and managed to kill all of them and round was won XD so yeah

Well, if shuttle comes without windows but resin doors, marines shoot resin doors and two rocket launchers will fuck up alien without any meta defenses, of course. And grenades. Many grenades.

[Kukeke11]

Well, if shuttle comes without windows but resin doors, marines shoot resin doors and two rocket launchers will fuck up alien without any meta defenses, of course. And grenades. Many grenades.

This was just response to Apops post where he said that map was designed a certain way.

[Jeser]

This was just response to Apops post where he said that map was designed a certain way.

No, map really was designed in that way. Even if you seal all vents in east part of Sulaco, ladders in engineering and Requisitions will remain. You can't, like on old Sulaco, totally seal off half of ship. And the most safe place now is Bridge.

[HalfdeadKiller]

The issue I'm getting with the enforcement of this rule, is how the marines know when to build defenses, when there is no alert as to who called the shuttle. No one is able to tell who called the shuttle, or from what console the shuttle was called. If marines were able tell that, then enforcement of this rule wouldn't be so... questionable.

Perhaps an idea would be to alert command on the command frequency, from which console the shuttle was called. Be it the planetside console, the cockpit console, the bridge console, or the hangar console. A message stating, "Dropship called from (Planetside Console, Hangar Console, Dropship Cockpit, Bridge Console)."

No real need to tell who called it. This just lets command know from WHERE it was called. Granted, meta-defenses may still be done from this. But its hard to punish for meta, when there is no way in game to know if it is meta-gaming until it is too late.

In further thinking, this system may cause more meta than even the current one. Simply because there is now confirmation that an unknown on the planet called the shuttle, if command asks the right questions. It seems the simplest solution is to simply forbid any defenses being built on the sulaco, due to the fact it is near impossible to do so without accidentally metagaming. Usually the first time the queen calls the shuttle, the aliens have probably one already.

Addendum. After re-reading apop's post. He seems to have come up with the solution already. Simply hold the FOB.

Also, to add to this. If marines are on the dropship, and reprt there are 5 or so aliens on it before dieing, are marines still forbidden to build some form of defense at the dropship, to easier contain the xenomorph hitchhikers? Or is that metagaming, since they are defenses built before the Queen called the shuttle?

Edit: It appears the building of defenses in the Sulaco Hangar is disabled. The above question might be useless now.

[Jeser]

Also, to add to this. If marines are on the dropship, and reprt there are 5 or so aliens on it before dieing, are marines still forbidden to build some form of defense at the dropship, to easier contain the xenomorph hitchhikers? Or is that metagaming, since they are defenses built before the Queen called the shuttle?

That's second one problem: rule should be totally changed, specified and clarified. Cause now it is... doesn't work at all, no one except Queen and admins can know did the Queen really sent/called shuttle or not? No, really, this is stupid.

[Steelpoint]

Just a question but can you still build on the actual dropship itself? Mainly to repair damage sustained to the ship.

[Jeser]

Ehm, I don't think I understood what are talking about.

[Abbysynth]

Just a question but can you still build on the actual dropship itself? Mainly to repair damage sustained to the ship.

Yes, repairs to the dropship are unaffected.