Player Report - Alex Graves

[Veradox]

Your Byond Key: Veradox

Your character name: Woah Jacobs

Their character name: Alex Graves

Their Byond key (optional - if you know it): I've been put under the impression that it is UnknownMurder

Approximate time and date of the incident (Central US Time for fastest results): 10/21/2015 8:10pm~

What rule(s) were broken: Griefing, incompetence at role.

Description of the incident: The aliens had once again made it to the Sulaco, and I had been left planetside with a smattering of marines who didn't listen to my suggestion to go around their approach (And being an SL, that really punched me in my command-bone). After sitting in a secluded spot for about ten minutes, I made a break for the pod after figuring the site was all clear and fled to medical bay to assist with an oncoming attack. From there, I stood guard until several attempts were made to remove a (and I was very clear on the amount as I was only neuro'd once or twice) minuscule amount of toxins damage (2-4) by Wyatt Hoopengarner, and later, Alex Graves. I had directly informed the medical staff that I wasn't interested in being treated, and that the damage was so low that it wouldn't affect me. Of course, this was relayed with the response of "It will eventually," showing a clear inability of understanding the prerequisite damage that must be in place before it becomes a lethal presence.

Wyatt eventually left me to my own business, respecting this claim, only to have Graves slam me into the sleeper while I was communicating with Command Staff about the oncoming attack and the structural integrity of the lower deck defenses, I was then filled with ridiculous levels of sleeping toxin. It was literally so high that another doctor was able to inform me that I was OD'ing from it. To add insult to injury, I was then further injected with exploit amounts of tricordrazine (my once chance at reaching a medical scanner said I was now filled with 500 units). Enraged at this, I called for assistance and worked to subdue Alex Graves out of my own IC anger (Bringing the reference to my endeavors needed to reach the Sulaco again, I'd say this was well deserved), refraining from firing shots because of the situation at hand. At this point, Graves had violated my right to deny treatment and then temporarily knocked me out of the round by filling me with toxins to accomplish his goal. Adding onto such, he exploited a mildly controversial medication (The Tricordrazine) and had filled me with at least five to six hundred units worth at the end of the altercation. The remainder of the round is IC fluff expressing anger and wrapping up with alien major victory.

Evidence (screenshots, logs, etc): The incident was constantly in motion, and spammed logs from attacks after dying from another alien breach had removed my ability to reliably discern which were relevant as the last minutes of the round went by and I finally had time to work on this. It can be assured that the provided information should be accurate.

How you would punish the accused: I'm not particularly angry about it, but after hearing so much about doctors being 'griefy' and 'incompetent', I'd like to request a job-ban for an indefinite period from that position in case such a situation must happen to me again, or any other user. Squad medics may be more his size until he can properly restrain himself from impulse. This appears to be a fairly recent occurrence, and figure he just needs some time to relax off the role.

[WyattH]

From what I saw and scanned, he had 20 units of toxin damage that he refused treatment for.

Also he's a metagrudger

metagrudger.png

[UnknownMurder]

Alright. Let me just join in. Since I'm in a rush, so I'll cut to the chase for the night.
Yes, it is I, Alex Graves.


Admin was on during this time, Allan. Did you report it to him, because I'm supposing you did not.
I have an oath to fix the patients, and not to take the patient's lives no matter whom it is. Who knows if the toxin will increase damage. Who knows, I did my job as a Doctor to fix you back to healthy.
Yes, I did inject you with a small dose of soporific (or sleep toxin), however after I have administered the medication to you, I did the best to suppress the soporific in your body system, however. You responded to me with a huge disrespect, then when you were able to stand. Here's what you said to me. Not to mention, you punched me for helping you. Punching a Doctor.



Was that the really best you should say for a small dose of sleep toxin. Anya Allen heard about that. I've reported to Allan afterwards.

Edit: I'm a Doctor, you come to medical bay whether by force or not. I do not state at people who are injured. I will fix you up when I have nothing to do. I had just fixed Vera's bones after being shot up by marines.

Edit #2: You were fine until aliens started approaching medical bay, then alien decided to take our atmosphere.

[Adjective]

From my opinion reading this, it seems like an IC event. A Doctor is obliged to treat marines and a Doctor would know more about any type of injury than a marine. No marine would tell a doctor insisting they get treated "No", because they "know" they aren't hurt that badly.

[UnknownMurder]

From my opinion reading this, it seems like an IC event. A Doctor is obliged to treat marines and a Doctor would know more about any type of injury than a marine. No marine would tell a doctor insisting they get treated "No", because they "know" they aren't hurt that badly.

Thank you for understanding the root of the situation.

[Allan1234]

He did apologize for the (L)OOC rant shortly after. he did it.

I am afraid i must go with varadox on this. He stated he did not want help at all and it was a IC choice, Unknown forcible took him and sleep toxined him against his own will forcing him out of the round for some time because of his "oath" that he cannot allow someone to die "even against there own will".

ICly sure the doctor knew more but we are medium RP he said he didn't want help do don't force it on him.

[UnknownMurder]

round for some time because of his "oath" that he cannot allow someone to die "even against there own will.

It's been... I don't know maybe, 10 minutes since he recovered with Wyatt, Rain, and my assistance. You can see us trying fix him up.
My job as a competent Doctor is to fix people up, not to watch them stay injured. Also, if Jacobs could not have refused medication as this will go by smoothly. I have done Future Jacobs a good deed. He has survived longer thanks to Wyatt's thinking. He died after my death. I have role played fitting to my character and I have done nothing wrong.

Also, his rants were both IC and OOC. He didn't stop ranting in IC, threatening to kill me, or apologized to me. I get those kinds of marines.

[Adjective]

In a real life situation, a Doctor would sedate someone to have them treated if it was crucial and the person was refusing. Doctors who know someone's life is in danger and do nothing can face legal trouble.

[ItsTheSleepy]

In a real life situation, a Doctor would sedate someone to have them treated if it was crucial and the person was refusing. Doctors know someone's life is in danger and do nothing can face legal trouble.

This is why you can't fully blame the doctor in this situation.

[Feweh]

In a real life situation, a Doctor would sedate someone to have them treated if it was crucial and the person was refusing. Doctors who know someone's life is in danger and do nothing can face legal trouble.

^
EMT here, not true at all.



Anyways... It's a video-game so let's remember that we have health-indicators right on someone's screen to indicate damage. If someone is refusing help... let's not disable them because you feel entitled to do so.

UM you're in the wrong, but I don't think you were doing it with intent to harm. Woah's anger is understandable and I myself would of been pissed.

[Jack McIntyre]

Hmm I will have to say that I do not side with the report in question due to the fact that you said you were going to meta grudge a player, a joke or not kinda of stupid to say in LOOC, it really isn't a threat as of, if a admin had caught it, I personally can tell you I would have sent you a message and been a bit questioning of your motives.

Furthermore, how would your character know how much toxin was in his body and that it wouldn't be enough to kill him, if you have poison in your body pretty sure your first instinct is to get it treated and not try to tell a doctor who has more knowledge then you on this matter no you don't want treatment. Personally was the sedative to much ehh, I probably would have done the same thing if you were acting like a dick when all I had to do was inject you with anti toxin or figure how what the hell was causing the toxin damage and you kept trying to fight back.

So going to side with Vrai on this one and say this is unnecessary and I would urge caution with stating your cause by saying you knew how much damage a neurotoxin hit would give you, technically marines would not know the exact amount of toxin damage they would take nor would they know if it would have long term effects or not. Just my thoughts on the matter since you seemed to use knowledge outside of your own character to state your case that you didn't need treatment. It is a in character issue. No need for the report.

[coroneljones]

Gotta agree with vrai and the rest here
The toxins coild have killed him or spread even more,he refused treatment but medical decided they should probably fix him so he wont die.
Sedation actually seems necessary after you threatened to kill two medics over treatment,and they probably did it so you wouldnt run off while they fixed you.

[UnknownMurder]

UM you're in the wrong, but I don't think you were doing it with intent to harm. Woah's anger is understandable and I myself would of been pissed.

No, I am not. I was never in the wrong in this situation. Stop pointing fingers, no one was in the wrong. As I have mentioned. I assisted Jacobs into suppressing the sleep toxin in his body. He was perfectly fine while fighting the waves of aliens afterwards. He was in Medical Bay, I have expectations to fix patients. Not fixing patients is never a role of a the Doctor and should be shamed. You can see me trying to prioritize from Jacobs to Vera because of fear from Jacob's threat.

Woah Jacobs is pissed that I managed to escape from him while caught by aliens and slashed to death. He is pissed because he did not get to kill me. This issue has been resolved by using role play.
Why didn't he report to Allan but choose to set up a player report as a peanut gallery.

[Lostmixup]

I'm kinda leaning towards UM here. Though his methods were a little... forceful RP wise it can be seen as saving the dudes life in the long run. Why would you refuse treatment anyway? It's just a quick fix up to make sure you're at 100%.

[Toroic]

UM is 100% in the wrong.

First and foremost, a patient's right to refuse care is taken incredibly seriously and you would have your license revoked and sued immediately.

Absolutely terrible RP for a doctor, on par with poisoning someone for personal gain.

If someone is of sound mind, and is not endangering others, you do not have any recourse to treat them. "I feel fine doc" is sufficient reason, and in fact no reason is required for refusing care.

While a marine wouldn't know how much tox damage neurospit does, it isn't relevant to their right to refuse care. The only thing a doctor can do in that case is inform them of the possible consequences of refusing care.

As a second concern, it is poor form to take someone out of the round without their consent, and incredibly poor form to do so despite their direct refusal.

If a surgeon operates on a patient despite consent, it legally is battery.

A doctor in real life who acted as Alex Graves did would be in a heap of trouble.

[Arachnidnexus]

This is assuming that it's a stable patient-doctor relationship that has no imminent threat to the patient's safety or health, though. I was browsing through some bits on Good Samaritan laws and noticed that there's the consent of 'implied consent' if the patient is unconscious, too intoxicated, mentally unfit, etc. It's also interesting to note that some states in the US have a Duty to Act law where trained medical professionals are required by law to provide emergency medical aid. I don't think it's quite so cut-and-dry as right to refuse treatment trumps all especially considering the scenario. I know for a fact that I've put people under anesthesia for surgery in CM despite their protests because they need life-saving surgery now and I know IC as a doctor that if they move they're likely to die. This is a bit of a different case, but I just wanted to point out that there's a difference between, say, declining chemotherapy treatment after discussion with your doctor and declining emergency aid when you just got shot.

[UnknownMurder]

UM is 100% in the wrong.

First and foremost, a patient's right to refuse care is taken incredibly seriously and you would have your license revoked and sued immediately.

Absolutely terrible RP for a doctor, on par with poisoning someone for personal gain.

If someone is of sound mind, and is not endangering others, you do not have any recourse to treat them. "I feel fine doc" is sufficient reason, and in fact no reason is required for refusing care.

While a marine wouldn't know how much tox damage neurospit does, it isn't relevant to their right to refuse care. The only thing a doctor can do in that case is inform them of the possible consequences of refusing care.

As a second concern, it is poor form to take someone out of the round without their consent, and incredibly poor form to do so despite their direct refusal.

If a surgeon operates on a patient despite consent, it legally is battery.

A doctor in real life who acted as Alex Graves did would be in a heap of trouble.

1. I did not take him out of round. He spent time trying to find me and threatening me over radio comms. He gave up shortly when aliens attacked he lost his life as everyone did. He survived the longest among the people. He should be thanking me.
2. I can see myself already being sued in this game for an attempt to aid a fellow Marine who 'felt fine'.
3. Aliens were attacking Engineering when Jacobs had no intention of heading to Engineering and decided to stay in Medical Bay.
4. I am uncertain if marine still has a right to refuse medication, hell. I could have left him injured but it was not in my character's best interest to leave people injured. Other words, I am showing good nature.
5. We attempted to dispose of sleep toxins in his body.
6. Everything was happening fast in medical bay. As you can see, I had to go and fix Vera up.
7. If Jacobs didn't want to fixed up, why is he inside Medical Bay instead of staying in lobby and guarding it. Medical Bay are for people who wants to be fixed up. Not visit then refuse.
8. You say legally battery? Go get the MP and him arrest me for fixing him up. This is an RP issue.

[Toroic]

This is assuming that it's a stable patient-doctor relationship that has no imminent threat to the patient's safety or health, though. I was browsing through some bits on Good Samaritan laws and noticed that there's the consent of 'implied consent' if the patient is unconscious, too intoxicated, mentally unfit, etc. It's also interesting to note that some states in the US have a Duty to Act law where trained medical professionals are required by law to provide emergency medical aid. I don't think it's quite so cut-and-dry as right to refuse treatment trumps all especially considering the scenario. I know for a fact that I've put people under anesthesia for surgery in CM despite their protests because they need life-saving surgery now and I know IC as a doctor that if they move they're likely to die. This is a bit of a different case, but I just wanted to point out that there's a difference between, say, declining chemotherapy treatment after discussion with your doctor and declining emergency aid when you just got shot.

Implied consent means that if someone is unconscious or mentally unfit we assume they agree to care. That is how we treat people if they cannot provide consent.

Duty to act means that trained medical professionals cannot be bystanders, they have a duty to act. However, asking for consent and then being told no fully qualifies their legal responsibility, and duty to act does not override a patient's right to refuse care.

Even in the case where someone could die, unless they would endanger others or are unfit they have a right to refuse care.

To be able to perform surgery on someone who refuses you'd first have to have them being legally assigned as unfit or you'd be breaking earth laws.

1. I did not take him out of round. He spent time trying to find me and threatening me over radio comms. He gave up shortly when aliens attacked he lost his life as everyone did. He survived the longest among the people. He should be thanking me.
2. I can see myself already being sued in this game for an attempt to aid a fellow Marine who 'felt fine'.
3. Aliens were attacking Engineering when Jacobs had no intention of heading to Engineering and decided to stay in Medical Bay.
4. I am uncertain if marine still has a right to refuse medication, hell. I could have left him injured but it was not in my character's best interest to leave people injured. Other words, I am showing good nature.
5. We attempted to dispose of sleep toxins in his body.
6. Everything was happening fast in medical bay. As you can see, I had to go and fix Vera up.
7. If Jacobs didn't want to fixed up, why is he inside Medical Bay instead of staying in lobby and guarding it. Medical Bay are for people who wants to be fixed up. Not visit then refuse.
8. You say legally battery? Go get the MP and him arrest me for fixing him up. This is an RP issue.

1) His reaction has absolutely nothing to do with if your previous action was justified. If you did not provide life-saving care his survival was not due to your actions.

2) Irrelevant, and hyperbole

3) Being in medical bay does not strip a patient of rights

4) Everyone has a right to refuse medical treatment if they're mentally fit and conscious.

This is a section that deals with refusal. It would not exist if marines couldn't refuse, and clearly makes an exception for reasonable refusal and those that do not interfere with duty.

b. Refusal of Medical Treatment. A Marine may be separated for refusing medical treatment and that refusal interferes with duty. The commander must determine if the refusal is "reasonable" or "unreasonable" and warrants separation based upon the situation and the following considerations.
- See more at: http://girightshotline.org/en/military- ... ines#.dpuf

5) You don't win points for removing sleep toxins you injected against his will.

6) Then according to triage principles you should've dealt with him last even had he consented, as he would be ranked "nonurgent" or level 5 on the Emergency-Severity Index (ESI), which covers things a simple perscription can solve.

7) Being in the med bay does not remove a person's rights. If you didn't want him there, you could ask him to leave.

8) There are definitely IC concerns, and ways to deal with them (brig for assault or demotion) but there are also OOC concerns about your understanding of concepts that are integral to the practice of medicine.

This might come off as a "muh immurshuns" but rules about consent and privacy are incredibly important topics in the real world, and when I hear about doctors ignoring consent or killing people with poison, it's just bad roleplay.

I know Colonial Marines is a medium roleplay server that tolerates a lot of sillyness, but doctors should be held to a higher standard of conduct, and in real life doctors are either dedicated to preserving HIPAA and a patient's rights, or they are violating oaths they swore.

[SASoperative]

This is a if and or situation and I am locking this. After looking into it you were NOT in the right or wrong and to be honest there is not much punishment I can deliver here that would be JUSTIFIED.

[apophis775]

If I'm a doctor, and there's a marine in medbay being a cock about getting treated, I might sedate him as well. There's actually an item for doctors to be able to quickly do this (sedative auto-injector).