A question about marriage...

[apophis775]

This came up, as recently, 2 players who were "married" in-game, had an issue with a CMO, that resulted in the CMO chloraling them, and a minor issue.

I was until now, unaware that this stuff was going on, and IRL, they'd NEVER allow a married couple on the same ship, typically, not even in the same brigade.

My question is, should we allow this to continue, or should action be taken with Meta-friending and "marriages".


Many of you know, this has been a "hot-button-topic" with me in the past. My concern, is that if this goes unchecked, it's going to take the focus away from what CM should be about.


Anyway, post your thoughts, concerns, and comments here, as well as give your vote.

Running this for 1 week.

[Dyne]

Unless these relations hurt productivity of the characters in question- see no reason not to.

[Wickedtemp]

I'm saying 'Yes'. While IRL they wouldn't allow married couples on the same ship, this could add some interesting RP stuffs, and it's already done just that, RP that I was happily involved in. As long as it stays at "X kisses Y on the cheek." and doesn't go past the line into ERP territory.

[apophis775]

Well, I feel as though we may need to have other restrictions. This came up, because of a couple and some upsetness near medbay earlier tonight, which resulted in damage to the ship and 3 people arrested.

One of the players, was upset, as he "doesn't come here for that shit". My thought is, if we allow this, are we going to take a step towards High-RP, should we, create restrictions and rules about marriage.

What if, a commander is married to a regular marine, and wants to promote them to a bridge officer?

This would be EASIER in real-life.

[Dyne]

Currently relations are the only continuity. Maybe we should think about some medals, or whatnot, as so far only relations, sometimes marriage-like, are all what live from round to round.

[apophis775]

I don't have a problem with relationships, or being "involved". It's marriage which opens all sorts of new doors and issues. "Do you allow this because they are married?" "Do they have the rights to that?" "can they use this as a reason to attack a marine?"

[Wickedtemp]

So, what exactly was this issue that lead to people being chloraled and arrested?

Also, I would appreciate some sort of Medal system now that it's mentioned... Awarded by Staff, can be revoked by staff. I think it'd be kinda cool but that needs it's own discussion thread.

[Seehund]

!!RANT DETECTED!! GET OUT OF DANGER CLOSE!!
Heya.
Of course, let me preface that, for those who know me, my words are going to appear biased.
Are they? I'm trying my damnedest to make sure they aren't.

First off, let's talk of what I perceive as.. the shining jewel of CM's gameplay. Human relationships in times of distress. It's such a big factor - maybe subtle, but HUGE - in many rounds. I sink as many hours as I do in this game not because of the admittedly wonderful pewpew guns it has, no, otherwise I would be well on my way for COD. I play for the players, the wonderful people sitting on the other side of the screen. You have brothers in arms, maybe relatives if you really want to push the envelope, MAYBE spouses. Rivals, too, those annoying people that, in hindsight, you COULD not do without. How many back-to-back badasses were created this way, how many friendships and of course, how many love interests?

Maybe I'm objectively wrong, but this is what I look for when I play. Not shiny new maps, though they are appreciated, and not fancy alien castes. I want interesting stories. Sad, funny, maybe harsh in hindsight. For me, CM lives and dies with the humans on the Sulaco - and their relationships.

Now, let's talk about

Meta-friending

I'm sorry, Apop, but you really wielded the hammer, missed the nail and hit your friend holding it up here. Sure as the Sun rises in the morning, banning weddings in-character will not even DENT meta-budding. It's not the ring on their finger that makes them do it, and neither is the surname they may share. The friendship you're looking for? It's about the players, not the characters - which act as proxies. I can guarantee to you, with nothing but two years of admin experience backing me up, that no, the only effect you'll have would be a reverse one - normally good players metabudding out of SPITE.

So, no. I'm sorry again, but this will not solve your meta-budding problems in the least.

Now, onto the big other elephant in the room, currently busy tromping around on the furnite; player RP freedom.
Are the players entitled to do what they want with their characters - their brainchildren, as long as this 'whatever' is lawful, within the rules and sensate? Yes.
All of these IC situations are wonderful RP opportunities which, in my humble opinion, SHOULD be tackled - ICly. There is absolutely no benefit, tangible or intagible it may be, to be gained from denying players RP possibilities. The CON, however, is that you may have lost a wonderful story.

What if, a commander is married to a regular marine, and wants to promote them to a bridge officer?

Favoritism does not and should not fly. But instead of bwoinking them to Hell and back, why not make something interesting out of it? An inspection because of a sudden, unexpected change in the manifest. A stern warning from Central. Anything, but PLEASE, keep that mouse away from the player panel for now. Nothing good is to be gained from prematurely handling IC situations OOCly, which I've learned much to my dismay in several occasions.

Currently relations are the only continuity. Maybe we should think about some medals, or whatnot, as so far only relations, sometimes marriage-like, are all what live from round to round.

This is a fantastic point. There is nothing for marines to indicate accomplishment or, as Dyne MASTERFULLY put it, continuity. Marines serve on the same ship but there's almost no clue of this. In Colonial Marines you truly are what you leave behind, be it a snide remark, a chuckle above your corpse or a loving memory. Relationships shape, create and destroy characters, and this is what is so wonderful - and powerful about them.

I don't have a problem with relationships, or being "involved". It's marriage which opens all sorts of new doors and issues. "Do you allow this because they are married?" "Do they have the rights to that?" "can they use this as a reason to attack a marine?"

You don't, they don't, they MOSTLY can't. Marines are Marines first and foremost and, no matter what is printed on their fancy ID, it does NOT allow them any special rights. Of course, this presents all sorts of GOOD opportunities for IC law-breaking, that again, should be handled IC by MPs, those unsung heroes. Could a brawl potentially escalate because an insult was flung? Sure, I don't see the problem. Is it okay if this somehow priority over the murderous lizards? Yes. No, I am not advocating this course of action, but PLEASE. Marines are their own worst enemy, and if they want to lose the round over a petty squabble, so be it.

Furthermore, this is why Moderators and Admins are there, is that not right?
They give their sanity, slowly burning out like a fuse until they inevitably explode, so these situations can be handled on a per-case basis where they may balloon and expand OOCly, threatening the oh-so-fragile status quo of those schyzoballs called players.

To conclude - for now; Apophis, this is not the problem you are looking for. Could this potentially become part of it? Possibly. Like any aspect of any community ever. My humble opinion, however, is that it would be a pretty big error, limiting player freedom and who knows, maybe driving away some players because of this. It is a touchy nerve, that even the most practiced surgeon would be wary in touching and perhaps rightly so.

The only piece of suggestion I can offer, truthfully, is cracking down on metabudding proper, with no particular regard towards a player's celibacy, and deal with these cases as they come, leaving it up to the players to do as they see fit. Still within reason, obviously.

[Voldirs]

One of the players, was upset, as he "doesn't come here for that shit".

This describes my thoughts perfectly. I'm not against "RP", but dont make Sims out of AvP. If RP in your meaning is a bunch incompetent special assheads, doing their special stuff to each other, well you have a bad taste, I must say. RP isnt about snowflakes its about proper react of your character. And its looking so hilarious when players transfer their characters' relations to the next round, while they were gut by a queen in previous round.

[Dyne]

If RP in your meaning is a bunch incompetent special assheads, doing their special stuff to each other, well you have a bad taste, I must say.

From my experience the ones who RP and interact more are usually more competent, and vice versa, on both "sides".

Also what relationship can be there if we killed the Queen last week? No change, as neither events happened in the timeline.
Marines never encountered aliens. Its a brand new day every day.

[Gelonvia]

Heres what I know, the problem of the issue is Metafriending, as it currently and in my personal opinion from learning and gathering everything? Is that it's thought banning Marriages will help stop Metafriending. What I believe is that meta-friending comes from the interactions of human beings between each other, they become "Friends" airgo then they defend each other based on personal preferences and buddying up. Morally this means close mindedness if someone is so willing to back up a friend then see from another persons perspective to provide empathy however if someone is Married ICly, going and removing all those interactions they had, and then punishing the community for going out and trying to do some RP instead of tackling the root of the problem and Banning Metafriending (Not Banning Marriage) so that way the roots can be pulled, will just cause a flame of issues and lose playerbase while the Metafriending continues. If you remove the IC Ring it doesn't stop the OOC friendship in otherwords.

And to provide info the player who was arrested was the CMO, CMO botched the surgery of a patient, the patients wife came and watched him limping so she scanned him with a health analyzer, said he had an unknown fracture, CMO rescanned him tried tossing the Wife out of the Medbay saying she can't be there for her Husband, husband got up and left with her saying he didn't want surgery if she couldn't be there and he will be fine, as the walk out the CMO yelled at the wife calling her a "Stupid Cunt", husband heard it got pissed starting yelling at him from behind the front window, the CMO continued to insult both wife and husband while the wife just stood there taking it and then the CMO ordered the doctors to deny the Husband treatment so if they get hurt on the field they would die. Wife got tired there, so she shattered his window to get back at him, CMO ran around and came and OD'd both of them using a hypo of chloral to poison and try and kill them before MP's arrived and Arrested the CMO and the Wife, CMO for attempted murder and negligence, wife for destruction of property.

To end it off I still believe it would be a good compramise sense it makes sense, by actually going and making it against SoP to be in the same Squad sense in RL you really shouldn't be in one there either. Really not being in the same squad would balance out players by having people who are actually of quality to hold everyone up instead of one squad with every decent person leading to death of the other squads.

[Voldirs]

From my experience the ones who RP and interact more are usually more competent, and vice versa, on both "sides".

Im talking about cases like this: viewtopic.php?p=44570#p44570

[Seehund]

Im talking about cases like this: viewtopic.php?p=44570#p44570

Perhaps cases are not the best thing to talk about because they are what they are;
Cases, so far somewhat isolated and not widespread, thus they should be handled, if necessary, by a staff member, without reference to any previous incidents unless it may apply for the punishment.

"1. An instance or occurrence of a particular kind or category [...]"

[Dyne]

Im talking about cases like this: viewtopic.php?p=44570#p44570

Maybe valid, but most of the incompetence I saw was bald not-talking marines.
Like, ten times more in numbers of occasions of actual incompetence, at least.

[Wickedtemp]

Im talking about cases like this: viewtopic.php?p=44570#p44570

Yeah, that's just shitty RP though. Shitty RP's going to be done by shitty RPers regardless of the scenario.

[UnknownMurder]

...Psst... Let's face the facts. I never cared for marriages but... Marines never met each other after before waking up in Cyro. I don't know what about Command Staffs. We already have meta-buddies partnering up and declaring relations as best friend or bride and groom. I am wondering if there is a military rule does not allow you to marry each other. But, honestly. Everyone talks as if they know each other. Everyone switching squads to hang out with their meta-buddies. People talks discreetly in Skype or Byond Pager just as almost moderators do in their msay. Back to point, marines doesn't know each other truthfully. If you happen to be married with same marine while getting on same platoon/squad is rare case I believe and a unusual coincidence.

Allan knows much about those stuff than I do.

[Wickedtemp]

...Psst... Let's face the facts. I never cared for marriages but... Marines never met each other after before waking up in Cyro. I don't know what about Command Staffs. We already have meta-buddies partnering up and declaring relations as best friend or bride and groom. I am wondering if there is a military rule does not allow you to marry each other. But, honestly. Everyone talks as if they know each other. Everyone switching squads to hang out with their meta-buddies. People talks discreetly in Skype or Byond Pager just as almost moderators do in their msay. Back to point, marines doesn't know each other truthfully. If you happen to be married with same marine while getting on same platoon/squad is rare case I believe and a unusual coincidence.

Allan knows much about those stuff than I do.

It's fairly obvious that this isn't something that's followed anyways. I mean, this IS (allegedly) a "Medium" RP server. And you know what happens during RP? Good times are had, memories are shared, sometimes laughs all around. To scrap that in the next round is just... eh. Why even RP if there's no character development? If everything's stagnant, why? You'd just be having the same damn conversations every time!

I know I'm not the only one with this mindset, I've had things brought up to my MP character, Joseph Alkek, that I told a person like a full 24 hours ago, and recently a different character asks me about it. There's NO possible way they wouldn't have known. And you know what? It lead to fun RP.

Point is, continuity = fun RP. I mean, christ, I've noticed that "meta friendships" is thrown around a lot. Here's how friendship works: Joseph hangs out as MP, becomes friends with another MP because they're competent and an all-round good person. So, Joseph and the person in question are friends, he knows that this person's got his back and he's got their's in return. The round comes and goes, next round starts, he sees them in a different role than before. Walks up to them, exchanges a few words, gives them a "Now go crack some heads, but be safe about it, kay?"

You know, mutual development between two characters that leads to RP between those two characters.

Now, I get that Staff gets all worried about OOC friendships, but the fact is, finding an actual competent player is VERY nice. I like competent players. I like doctors that actually know how to do chemistry and set up cryo. I like MP that don't always resort to beating with stun batons just because the (restrained and handcuffed) prisoner is talking shit. (Yes, this actually happened. I eventually arrested that MP and they got demoted.) So when I find someone who isn't shit, I remember them. And I know both ICly (depending on the character) and OOCly that I can RP with that person and it won't be like talking to a wall. And yeah, if I get their username on the forums and I learn what other characters they play as, I know I can trust those characters as well because the player behind them is competent. So, if I was ever in a Command position, I'd probably take them as a Squad Leader over Rambo Joe, bald, black eyes, 30 years old Greytide, because chances are the person I know is just a better choice.

Vice versa, if I know you're utterly shit at what jobs you do (lookin' at you, medical workers that have never even GLANCED at the wiki before playing) then I know I likely can't trust you to get a job done. Like, that MP I had to arrest one round, I know they'll have a tendency to react violently so I need to keep an eye on them until I see a chance in that behavior. Else, we might end up with a dead prisoner.

The "Meta Frienships" are going to happen, to some extent. No matter what. Unless names are randomized literally every single round, people will know who the good players are and who the bad ones are, and as such, they will favor the good.

[Lostmixup]

!!RANT DETECTED!! GET OUT OF DANGER CLOSE!!

Yea, I didn't read any of that. TLDR.

I say no marriage. Too many complications. The rp gotten out of it isn't that good anyway, and is usually only enjoyable for the "married" people.

[Wickedtemp]

Yea, I didn't read any of that. TLDR.

I say no marriage. Too many complications. The rp gotten out of it isn't that good anyway, and is usually only enjoyable for the "married" people.

I RPed with a few characters that were married, 10/10, would definitely do it again. It's just that the majority of the playerbase doesn't give a shit about RP, they just want to shoot alums and OORAH.

If shit gets out of hand, either let it work itself out ICly, or if any real rule-breaking was done chances are an ahelp or a player complaint will be made shortly.

It improves on character development, which is a MASSIVE plus for the players that actually enjoy RP. When I see a character that's married to another, I can generally assume that they're all good to RP with, and usually the people that are good at RP can be relied on with in-game mechanics as well.

[Azmodan412]

I would like to put in my opinion, which is being a big 'No!'. There is policy in the military that family, including spouses do not serve together because one catastrophe can wipe out a generational line. The following example may not be accurate for the current scenario, but please look at a World War 2 event, if the name USS Juneau rings no bells, I will explain.

Frank, Joe, Matt, George and Al Sullivan enlisted in the United States Navy on January 3, 1942. Of course they wanted to serve together and the Navy had a non-enforced policy of separation of siblings. All of them were assigned to the light cruiser the USS Juneau. Participating in the Guadalcanal Campaign, which began in August of 1942, tragedy struck hard. Early morning, November 13, 1942, during the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal, the Juneau was struck by a torpedo and forced to withdraw. Later in the day, when it was enroute to Espiritu Santo, an Allied rear-base, it was struck again by Japanese submarine I-26. This torpedo struck the cruiser near the ammunition magazines and the ship exploded. Frank, Joe, and Matt Sullivan died instantly, Al drowned on November 14, 1942, and George leapt over the side of the raft he was occupying on either November 17-18 out of delirium of losing all four of his brothers. He was never seen/heard from after that.

At this point, the military started enforcing the separation of family policy. I do not know if this is particularly relevant in this case, since it is Navy, but the same premise. Family members can not serve together and here I wrap up my post.

[Wickedtemp]

I would like to put in my opinion, which is being a big 'No!'. There is policy in the military that family, including spouses do not serve together because one catastrophe can wipe out a generational line. The following example may not be accurate for the current scenario, but please look at a World War 2 event, if the name USS Juneau rings no bells, I will explain.

Frank, Joe, Matt, George and Al Sullivan enlisted in the United States Navy on January 3, 1942. Of course they wanted to serve together and the Navy had a non-enforced policy of separation of siblings. All of them were assigned to the light cruiser the USS Juneau. Participating in the Guadalcanal Campaign, which began in August of 1942, tragedy struck hard. Early morning, November 13, 1942, during the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal, the Juneau was struck by a torpedo and forced to withdraw. Later in the day, when it was enroute to Espiritu Santo, an Allied rear-base, it was struck again by Japanese submarine I-26. This torpedo struck the cruiser near the ammunition magazines and the ship exploded. Frank, Joe, and Matt Sullivan died instantly, Al drowned on November 14, 1942, and George leapt over the side of the raft he was occupying on either November 17-18 out of delirium of losing all four of his brothers. He was never seen/heard from after that.

At this point, the military started enforcing the separation of family policy. I do not know if this is particularly relevant in this case, since it is Navy, but the same premise. Family members can not serve together and here I wrap up my post.

We can start enforcing actual military rules when every marine is an actual competent soldier, every doctor is competent, and Command isn't full of idiots who shoot themselves because they wanted to be something else.

[Seehund]

Yea, I didn't read any of that. TLDR.

I say no marriage. Too many complications. The rp gotten out of it isn't that good anyway, and is usually only enjoyable for the "married" people.

While I appreciate your.. dedication, I can't genuinely see where the problem is - or rather, what would drive you to be against marriage.

Is it better to have a particular, niche RP enjoyed by some or complete void which, I'm sure, nobody would particularly appreciate?
As for the quality, well, that's subjective for obvious reasons.
Honestly, I'd think a live and let live policy would be best here, obviously within limits, with those who are not interested simply looking away - I can't say much RP has been shoved in my face since I've been here, much to my dismay.

[Azmodan412]

We can start enforcing actual military rules when every marine is an actual competent soldier, every doctor is competent, and Command isn't full of idiots who shoot themselves because they wanted to be something else.

I am just backing up my vote with fact.

[Dyne]

...because one catastrophe can wipe out a generational line...

Please remind me if they had cheap reliable cloning in 1942?

I can play the devils advocate and come up with many potential reasons to say "no" to official marriage, from a fluff point, if we change fluff accordingly.
Say, we are all neutered war-clones with no "citizens rights", or whatever other trope is there.

Still, in my original point I mentioned "marriage-like", so even if we ban the "name and the rings", the essence remains- as mentioned by Wickedtemp, UnknownMurder, Jackserious, Voldirs. The relations and the care are already there.
Which raises another issue- how do we support the formal hierarchy as well, so Commanders orders are not constantly questioned, for instance.

I say no marriage. Too many complications. The rp gotten out of it isn't that good anyway, and is usually only enjoyable for the "married" people.

Its always a person right to say "no". Lets still dig a bit deeper.

1. "RP gotten out of this isnt good" ...so you tried it and didn't like it- dont play a married or seriously committed character, no one is forcing anyone, as far as I know.
2. "...and is usually only enjoyable for the "married" people". Wait. So it is good. For those who play it. And some other players as well.
Newsflash- all RP is only good to people who play it.

[Wickedtemp]

I am just backing up my vote with fact.

The fact that there's no real point to enforcing this rule?

A) "It's only fun for those involved." Such is the way of pretty much everything, ever.
B) "It can cause complications." Also such is the way of pretty much everything. If an IC complication arises, deal with it like any complication. ICly.
C) "It's not allowed in the Military!" Pretty sure they wouldn't allow a mute greytider named "Illuminati" either, but that shit happens on this server too. Also, as of now, transgender people aren't allowed in the military. But you know what? I can go make a transgender character, put it on their medical records and even mention it a few times ICly... And you know what will happen? Probably nothing. Maybe a few of them say "DUDE WHAT A FAG!" or "Eh, that's cool I guess." Maybe one of them shoots me because of dumb marines, but eh, what're ya gonna do. Point is, it doesn't really matter.
D) "META-FRIENDING!" ... Oh, god, people forming friendships? THE HORROR! Just like any IC friendship, it comes with perks. Your friends are more likely to back you up and vouch for you. This is a reason to be a good person. Are we going to have a "NO FRIENDSHIPS!" rule to back this up?