Clarify the Doctors can't use guns rule.

[HalfdeadKiller]

You are a DOCTOR not a marine. You are NOT authorized weapons, and using lethal force against marines (no matter the situation) results in a job-ban.

So. I wanna get on the same page as admins and everyone here. Currently, it sounds like this rule is being taken at face value, where the words "no matter the situation" literally means ANY situation. Including picking up a pistol or gun to shoot the alien charging you. This makes, zero sense. And apparently this warrants a job ban.

Now, I like playing doctor. But I'm not just gonna sit around and do nothing when medbay is filled with aliens, I'm evaced to briefing with no medical supplies, and the aliens are visibly charging us. One or two marines are tackled, obviously we can't do anything medical wise for them, so why not pick up a rifle and help what marines are left try and save their fallen comrades. Now, if we hold them back, and marines are wounded, obviously one should drop the rifle and fix them if possible. But you can't even pick up the rifle in the first place. Hell, even if there are downed marines in medbay and you pick up their rifle to fight back, apparently you're gonna get job banned.

I don't think the wording of "No matter the situation" is appropriate for this rule. Most rules seem to be handled on a case by case basis, so why not this one? It seems pretty easy to me. If there are visibly aliens charging doctors, and not enough marines to hold the aliens, why should the doctor not be allowed to use a gun a that time? Sure he has to drop it after, and if he doesn't he should probably be Bwoinked. But in that case, he should be able to defend himself.

So. I suppose a possible rewrite of the rule is suggested.

"You are a DOCTOR not a marine. You are not to have weapons on you or be on the front lines with marines (Unless you are in visible, immediate danger), and using lethal force against marines (no matter the situation) results in a job-ban."

Now, I ain't the best at making rules, and this rewrite could probably be fixed, or discarded. But it seems like a lot of people still have issues with interpretation of the rule. One solution is to make it so doctors can't use weapons a all. But that is just stupid in my opinion.

[apophis775]

And you, as a civilian doctor, will know how to instantly operate the M41A MK2 Pulse rifle?

[Siserith Vassada]

i feel like any military would have non civilian surgeons and doctors...

and think about it... it's not that hard to pick up and fire a gun...

but hey... thats my opinion

[KittyLava]

Well from my point of view, doctors are suppose to be bound and/or follow the Hippocratic Oath help or do no harm. If so likely it'll mean the doctors aren't exactly combat trained due to the Oath, this follows the wiki's military ranks as well; civilians. Given how much training they were likely to under go by school, college, medical school, medical internships perhaps; even training included for operations on military vessels if that's required too. Honestly don't believe doctors would have any training for fire arms, on top of Military police alongside whom knows how many trained military personal present that they should feel rather safe with their presence on board.

Another thing to point out since doctors were likely not combat trained at all, other personal able to really handle the combat instead of them; how would these doctors know how to properly fire a gun without the recoil of whatever caliber round throwing aim off and likely injuring fellow personal. There's also the problem of how would they know to aim properly and even reload, or what does what fully? Usually when the unknown bio-lifeform having access to the drop ship or drop pods, it's a good indication to medical personal to get ready for incoming injuries as the personal currently on board get to battle stations. Possibly get ready to move patients if needed to safety as well, depending upon the situation so that you can save that marine's/personal's life or get them back up into the field if needed.

[monkeysfist101]

And you, as a civilian doctor, will know how to instantly operate the M41A MK2 Pulse rifle?

Not at all, but a Navy doctor is a commissioned officer and carries a sidearm.

[ChickenShizNit8]

Most of America knows how to fire a gun....

[Mac]

The whole problem here lies with the fact that we have civilian doctors instead of military ones. I don't personally agree with this rule, but only one person here has the power to change it and despite discussion on this in the past it's pretty set in stone. I'd be fine with a rule where firearms aren't allowed to be carried but if the ship is boarded you can grab one.

[SkyeAuroline]

Okay, so I looked for a decent depiction of the M41A... and there's not really any out there. Best I could get is here. That said, the components are a SPAS-12 and a Thompson, both of which I can speak to, as I've shot both personally.

Thompson's safety is simple. Turn a knob, safety's off. The SPAS, I don't honestly remember, but it's not functionally modeled on Colmar. And when you're pressing a bunch of inexperienced teenagers into military service, you're gonna keep something simple.

Components you need to know to pick up and fire a gun: Is the safety off? If yes, pull trigger until you hear it go click. I find it incredibly hard to believe, and even a little insulting to the Navy, that people aboard a military warship wouldn't know how to pull a trigger.

[razerwing]

Well from my point of view, doctors are suppose to be bound and/or follow the Hippocratic Oath help or do no harm.

Another thing to point out since doctors were likely not combat trained at all.

There's also the problem of how would they know to aim properly and even reload, or what does what fully?

Right. So.

1) Pretty sure that the Hippocratic Oath doesn't apply to most of the creatures the Sulaco would be encountering, unless the Sulaco Medical Force doubles as veterinary force. And even then... come on.

2) What makes you think that they haven't been combat trained? The Sulaco has a live-fire firing range in the hangar area, complete with targets. And as far as I know, it's open and free to use.

3) Again. We have a Firing Range in the Hangar Bay. And I refuse to believe that every single doctor on board the Sulaco wouldn't want to fire a Pulse Rifle, or at the very least a service pistol. Also, most guns in general are really easy to use, considering that most military forces view rugged simplicity as the standard for foot-based troops. Reloading consists of watching your magazine fall out of the gun, grabbing one off of your belt, and sliding that one in. If your trigger isn't pulling back, then you have your safety on, and Woods will yell at you being the crotchety old man that he is.

Since it doesn't seem that this rule is going to change, for some reason, a bit of clarification would be nice. To be honest, I'd be a little worried if admins don't directly intervene when lethal force is used on other marines, but the moment they see a doctor with a gun fighting Xenos in an escape pod, they put the poor guy to sleep.

[Wesmas]

2) What makes you think that they haven't been combat trained? The Sulaco has a live-fire firing range in the hangar area, complete with targets. And as far as I know, it's open and free to use.

As a doctor you can go into the range. I did it myself a day or two ago.
Personaly, I feel the doctors should be marines. It gives them the rank to order marines to follow medical procedures, stops untrained civvies from panicing in tight spots and makes sense on a ship which is largely off on its own. If the crew are expected to serve for long durations far from base and family, it seems odd that civvilians are on the crew. I would expect them to be marines.

[Sadokist]

Lol I find it hilarious that this is even a deal to most people. This happens even with MP's on a constant basis. Always catching other MP's getting rifles and shit. It's not that hard going a round without a firearm.

[Telegnats]

Yea I never understood it either. Why would you want to shoot a gun in a game whose sole purpose is to shoot aliens?

[Sadokist]

Yea I never understood it either. Why would you want to shoot a gun in a game whose sole purpose is to shoot aliens?

The point is you're on a ship, where there's no aliens so getting a gun BEFORE there's aliens makes no sense. It's meta.

[Telegnats]

The rule still applies when aliens have boarded and are currently trying to eat your face.

[Wickedtemp]

And you, as a civilian doctor, will know how to instantly operate the M41A MK2 Pulse rifle?

Probably not, but a handgun wouldn't be hard to handle. Saying otherwise would be pretty much calling doctors completely brain-dead.

I'm still in favor of changing the rule so that, once it's clear that the Sulaco is being boarded, doctors should be allowed a pistol. As in, NOT before it's boarded. ONLY when it's clear that aliens are coming to kick their ass. Because at that point, oaths be damned, it's common fucking sense and any sane human who isn't a hard-core pacifist (Hard-core pacifists probably wouldn't be working on a military vessel anyways) would grab a pistol. Because you can't work on a military vessel and NOT know how to load and fire a handgun. Seriously.

[Sadokist]

Regarding being boarded and still not being able to use a gun I don't agree with. If you're a doctor and the is being attacked and you see a rifle on the ground and there's aliens coming after you, of course you should be able to pick it up. Guns aren't that difficult to operate. A doctor wouldn't have that much trouble using one. Especially if they're in the marines. They all went through basic training.

[Wesmas]

R A doctor wouldn't have that much trouble using one. Especially if they're in the marines. They all went through basic training.

The doctors didnt. With the way the ranks currently are, doctors are considered civilians. This means they went to medical school, not basic training.(I think they should be marines, but moving on)
I am in favor of doctors being allowed guns in situations where there is a known threat and they are in a location which could reasnably be reached by hostiles. We seem to agree that the weapons wouldnt be too difficult to use and that a back story which shows some practice is not difficult to come up with. *shrugs* The rule should stop doctors atacking. But they need the leeway to defend themselfs. Defending themselfs should start with getting away from the danger. The use of a gun should be if there is nowhere safer they can get to.

[Sadokist]

The doctors didnt. With the way the ranks currently are, doctors are considered civilians. This means they went to medical school, not basic training.(I think they should be marines, but moving on)
I am in favor of doctors being allowed guns in situations where there is a known threat and they are in a location which could reasnably be reached by hostiles. We seem to agree that the weapons wouldnt be too difficult to use and that a back story which shows some practice is not difficult to come up with. *shrugs* The rule should stop doctors atacking. But they need the leeway to defend themselfs. Defending themselfs should start with getting away from the danger. The use of a gun should be if there is nowhere safer they can get to.

Well yeah a gun isn't very difficult to use even if you've never used one...it's not like operating a jet plane or something.

[Minijar]

It apparently isn't that hard to use a pulse rifle, after all Hicks taught ripley to use one in fifteen seconds flat and that was with a grenade launcher too, and anyone can use a pistol, I've received no training at all, yet I'm a surprisingly good shot with one oddly. Perhaps to balance doctors/non firearm trained staff having guns, unless they are actually military personnel, they have a significantly reduced accuracy?

[Wickedtemp]

I find it a bit sad that, despite at least 2 other threads discussing this exact issue, and pretty much everyone in the playerbase approving of it and providing justifications for it... And also forming rebuttals for every single argument AGAINST doctors using small firearms when boarded... This is still being discussed as if the aforementioned rule even has reason behind it.

[Edgelord]

Is this debate really going on again?

[Wickedtemp]

Is this debate really going on again?

Yes, though it's pretty much been ended. There's no legitimate counter argument to doctors using small firearms when the Sulaco is boarded. Staff is just worried about doctors leaving the patients to fight. However there's a fix for that.

Report them. Job-ban.

[Sadokist]

Yea this has really been run into the ground. It's just a matter of acting on it....which the staff probably won't do

[Wickedtemp]

Yea this has really been run into the ground. It's just a matter of acting on it....which the staff probably won't do

Pretty much.

[Adjective]

I'm in favor of a Doctor being able to pick up a gun, fire it a few times, but have it coded so that there is a 4% chance of the doctor(civilian) getting knocked out, dropping the gun, or getting random major brute to the head/chest with each shot fired due to recoil they do not know how to compensate.