Alien Nest Changes

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LiquidNightfury
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Alien Nest Changes

Post by LiquidNightfury » 10 Dec 2015, 02:48

Summary: Solve the supposed issue of checkerboard nests and innovate nest design.

Benefits: Vast decrease of sodium in the atmosphere. More innovative nest designs from aliens, more technique to nest escapes from marines, generally less of a straight meta.

Details: Currently nesting falls into a specific pattern due to the fact that currently, checkerboard nesting is an ideal method of maximizing nesting space with very little downside. However there is some backlash against checkerboard nesting due to the fact that it is the path of least resistance - it is a tactic implemented due to sheer effectiveness. This suggestion aims to solve the following gameplay issues:
  • Dependency on checkerboard nesting as a mass-pattern tactic
  • Difficulty in escaping from checkerboard nesting regions
  • The low risk and time cost of freeing other marines in nest areas
  • Draw nest construction closer into line with Alien canon
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This is how trapped humans are depicted in the Alien franchise. They are kept in standing cocoons, lining the walls of hive areas. To bring construction into similar line with this idea (I understand that alien canon is not required, however I feel it is worth noting with this concept) I have a proposal.

The primary component of this proposal involves the removal of the nest from the game, instead replaced with a cocoon wall, possibly under the term 'nest' to avoid confusion. The wall would be similar in strength and appearance to hive walls, with notable sprite difference to avoid confusion, of course. The cocoon would block movement and vision through itself. Instead of buckling, cocooning of a captured host would be achieved by grabbing and placing a marine similar to cryopods, and dead hosts would automatically fall from the nests to allow for efficient cycling. While inside a cocoon, marines have limited vision range, and their sprites are not visible to marines. Doors CANNOT be placed in tiles adjacent to cocoons.

Secondarily, alter the function of removing hosts from nests. While aliens are capable of simply right click > removing hosts without harm to the structure, marines and the hosts themselves would have to undergo more drastic means. Hosts in cocoons retain their resistance, able to thrash their way out of the cocoon and break down the tile entirely, with accompanying noise. Removing other hosts, however, undergoes a drastic change. Cocoons may be rigid enough to shatter from within, but it is difficult to get purchase from outside.

Attacking the cocoon from the outside with fists is loud and takes many strikes, similarly with weapon butts and other blunt devices, gaining the attention of nearby aliens but avoiding harm to the contained entity. Alternatively, a marine combat knife can be used to rapidly cut the cocoon in a shorter number of quiet strikes, but with a cost - each strike has a chance to wound the host inside, potentially killing your fellow marines. Bullets would penetrate the cocoon but not violate it's integrity, harming the occupant directly. If a host bursts, the cocoon releases their body and the larva, the latter of which is automatically hidden under the block, though not completely.

To conclude: New nest block with a solid sprite but no unbuckle mechanic. Makes checkerboard designs cumbersome, but also removes the threat of marines escaping and freeing all of their allies if not completely restrained. Aliens are required to build more unique hives to adapt to the terrain, while hosts become less of a threat, yet are no longer trapped in an endless network of inescapable doors. Ideally overall, aliens see less trouble with their hosts, no longer needing to worry about unbuckle timers or resisting-while-down, however hivebuilders and sentinels will need to remain attentive to avoid a single host breaking free a whole chamber, and the destruction of cocoons by host escape.

Thoughts?

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Re: Alien Nest Changes

Post by Toroic » 10 Dec 2015, 03:23

I don't know how valuable the noise is, as xenos can already see when a marine is freeing another.

Otherwise I would have to see it implemented, but have no objection to an alternative to checkerboard.

You could make resin wall + door holding cells, but they are a lot less space efficient.
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Re: Alien Nest Changes

Post by LiquidNightfury » 10 Dec 2015, 03:29

Toroic wrote:I don't know how valuable the noise is, as xenos can already see when a marine is freeing another.

Otherwise I would have to see it implemented, but have no objection to an alternative to checkerboard.

You could make resin wall + door holding cells, but they are a lot less space efficient.
The noise was accommodating for the fact that I think standard sprite don't exist when they're in units like cryopods and scanners, they just show 'occupied' states of those items. Thus, if the marine was off screen in the hive, you'd hear them breaking out or breaking others out. It lets hives be built with less concentration and still be manageable.

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Re: Alien Nest Changes

Post by Toroic » 10 Dec 2015, 03:34

LiquidNightfury wrote: The noise was accommodating for the fact that I think standard sprite don't exist when they're in units like cryopods and scanners, they just show 'occupied' states of those items. Thus, if the marine was off screen in the hive, you'd hear them breaking out or breaking others out. It lets hives be built with less concentration and still be manageable.
I was thinking though, while I was 100% behind eliminating breaching as a xeno tactic, did it actually reduce the salt?

I'm all for non-shit alternatives to checkerboard nests, but I don't think marines have been less salty as a result of less breaching (by xenos. Just saw a marine SADAR the Sulaco today)
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Re: Alien Nest Changes

Post by LiquidNightfury » 10 Dec 2015, 03:43

Toroic wrote:I was thinking though, while I was 100% behind eliminating breaching as a xeno tactic, did it actually reduce the salt?

I'm all for non-shit alternatives to checkerboard nests, but I don't think marines have been less salty as a result of less breaching (by xenos. Just saw a marine SADAR the Sulaco today)
It's kind of on a different level, though I can't speak from experience, that rule was in when I started playing. While internals are an easy, near-permanent-except-for-facehuggers issue with breaches, and breaches do kind of affect both sides with aliens tending to get sucked into space forever, checkerboard nesting is just the best way to do it, and because of that it leaves marines with practically no recourse. Right now I'm envisioning more like rows with the new concept, hallways that give marines room to move and makes their options more spread out than 'start hacking at door, wait for tackle'. The chances of them ESCAPING intact are still low, but the reasons behind the checkerboarding are out of the picture and there is more counterplay to it.

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Re: Alien Nest Changes

Post by monkeysfist101 » 10 Dec 2015, 08:58

I'd be up for this if the Xenos and marines could see the cocooned victim. As far as resin strength goes, it's brittle enough for someone on the outside to break open with their hands.
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Re: Alien Nest Changes

Post by Davidchan » 10 Dec 2015, 09:26

Resin doors, in general, are the problem in my opinion. They are way too strong and to easy to throw up en masse, obscuring Marine vision but not aliens. It also doesn't make much sense that the aliens could freely construct a semi-concious resin that would recognize when a xeno approaches it to open and yet reject anything else.

I'd rather see Doors removed, requiring a bit more thought into Xeno hive defense designs, nesting corridors would be more like those seen in alien canon with groups of marines. Making membranes passable for Larva would make them somewhat viable as nest obstructions since they are easy to place and remove for xenos, and would generally look better for marines who can now see out of their 'cell' or invading marines could quickly identify where their comrades are held.

With the addition of Sticky reson, doors really don't have a purpose aside from being damn annoying to both Xenos and Marines, sticky resins slows down marines, walls can be places for L shape or zig zag corridors to slow down marines further while Xenos can fairly quickly navigate. I'd be fully in favor of increasing Resin wall health somehwat or even adding a tier 2 sticky reson or bile that would impede marines even mores (like spiderwebs with a chance of getting stuck/legbinded) if it meant that doors and door spam would go away forever.

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Re: Alien Nest Changes

Post by monkeysfist101 » 10 Dec 2015, 09:33

Davidchan wrote:Resin doors, in general, are the problem in my opinion. They are way too strong and to easy to throw up en masse, obscuring Marine vision but not aliens. It also doesn't make much sense that the aliens could freely construct a semi-concious resin that would recognize when a xeno approaches it to open and yet reject anything else.

I'd rather see Doors removed, requiring a bit more thought into Xeno hive defense designs, nesting corridors would be more like those seen in alien canon with groups of marines. Making membranes passable for Larva would make them somewhat viable as nest obstructions since they are easy to place and remove for xenos, and would generally look better for marines who can now see out of their 'cell' or invading marines could quickly identify where their comrades are held.

With the addition of Sticky reson, doors really don't have a purpose aside from being damn annoying to both Xenos and Marines, sticky resins slows down marines, walls can be places for L shape or zig zag corridors to slow down marines further while Xenos can fairly quickly navigate. I'd be fully in favor of increasing Resin wall health somehwat or even adding a tier 2 sticky reson or bile that would impede marines even mores (like spiderwebs with a chance of getting stuck/legbinded) if it meant that doors and door spam would go away forever.
This. All of this. Make it a suggestion and I'll +1 it.
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Re: Alien Nest Changes

Post by ForcefulCJS » 10 Dec 2015, 11:23

Anything is better than the current system but I worry that this just encourages people to murder all the hosts instead of unbuckling them. It already happens pretty frequently with explosives, someone would only need a few seconds to bust out an m4 and get multiple hosts into succumb territory without a door to slow them down.

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Re: Alien Nest Changes

Post by LiquidNightfury » 10 Dec 2015, 11:34

ForcefulCJS wrote:Anything is better than the current system but I worry that this just encourages people to murder all the hosts instead of unbuckling them. It already happens pretty frequently with explosives, someone would only need a few seconds to bust out an m4 and get multiple hosts into succumb territory without a door to slow them down.
Then space your hosts. Keep in mind that identifying them would be impossible, so slide marines in beside dozens of monkeys or shit like that. Keep sentinels around. There will be clear indications that marines have escaped, and I feel like if they can manage to kill a handful of hosts, good on them, because they were given that frame to do so. This is the point of the noise prompts, mostly - to give aliens the tools to properly respond if they're playing on point.

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Re: Alien Nest Changes

Post by Edgelord » 10 Dec 2015, 11:41

Hey that actually sounds pretty cool,

+1
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Re: Alien Nest Changes

Post by Toroic » 10 Dec 2015, 12:28

Davidchan wrote:Resin doors, in general, are the problem in my opinion. They are way too strong and to easy to throw up en masse, obscuring Marine vision but not aliens. It also doesn't make much sense that the aliens could freely construct a semi-concious resin that would recognize when a xeno approaches it to open and yet reject anything else.

I'd rather see Doors removed, requiring a bit more thought into Xeno hive defense designs, nesting corridors would be more like those seen in alien canon with groups of marines. Making membranes passable for Larva would make them somewhat viable as nest obstructions since they are easy to place and remove for xenos, and would generally look better for marines who can now see out of their 'cell' or invading marines could quickly identify where their comrades are held.

With the addition of Sticky reson, doors really don't have a purpose aside from being damn annoying to both Xenos and Marines, sticky resins slows down marines, walls can be places for L shape or zig zag corridors to slow down marines further while Xenos can fairly quickly navigate. I'd be fully in favor of increasing Resin wall health somehwat or even adding a tier 2 sticky reson or bile that would impede marines even mores (like spiderwebs with a chance of getting stuck/legbinded) if it meant that doors and door spam would go away forever.
I was confused for a while trying to figure out why marines hated xeno doors so much, since they take like 2-3 bullets before being destroyed, and I realized it is because by arguing against doors in general, it would shut down checkerboard nests.

Of course, the reality of the situation is that the nest design that will be used is the most secure one, meaning that marines won't have an easier time escaping even with a nest design. The advantage of checkerboard is that it is both compact and secure. No one building the nest with any competence will sacrifice security.
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Re: Alien Nest Changes

Post by monkeysfist101 » 10 Dec 2015, 12:33

Lore issues aside, the checkerboard door pattern ONLY works on a 2D grid. It physically can not exist in 3D. You would either be able to walk around it, or it wouldn't be able to be traversed from all four directions. It destroys any RP the humans gain from being cocooned together. It's no better than if marines checkerboarded electrified grilles with turrets in between.
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Re: Alien Nest Changes

Post by Toroic » 10 Dec 2015, 12:43

monkeysfist101 wrote:Lore issues aside, the checkerboard door pattern ONLY works on a 2D grid. It physically can not exist in 3D. You would either be able to walk around it, or it wouldn't be able to be traversed from all four directions. It destroys any RP the humans gain from being cocooned together. It's no better than if marines checkerboarded electrified grilles with turrets in between.
Lore is a non-concern, and there are a lot of physics issues (landing a dropship in a dropship shaped container of electric grills).

Marines already put both turrets and electric grills up, but it is more efficient to have a wall and a turret than a checkerboard.

Marines are not limited in utilizing their building materials except by starting to build in the hanger 100% due to meta knowledge that xenos can use the dropship, and I see no reason to limit xenos using their building materials either, since they really are just weeds, doors, walls, tunnels, nests, and sticky resin. Marines get metal walls, inflatible walls, grills, girders, fake walls, tables, reinforced tables, emitters, and turrets.
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Re: Alien Nest Changes

Post by LiquidNightfury » 10 Dec 2015, 12:51

Toroic wrote:I was confused for a while trying to figure out why marines hated xeno doors so much, since they take like 2-3 bullets before being destroyed, and I realized it is because by arguing against doors in general, it would shut down checkerboard nests.

Of course, the reality of the situation is that the nest design that will be used is the most secure one, meaning that marines won't have an easier time escaping even with a nest design. The advantage of checkerboard is that it is both compact and secure. No one building the nest with any competence will sacrifice security.
This, I think, is the issue. I completely agree with you. The problem is that the currently 'most secure' option is also completely stifling and and an absolute shutdown for marines. There isn't counterplay, which is one of the core aspects of keeping PVP multiplayer bearable for both sides. If a system can be put in place where it feels to the marine that they have more options and schemes to attempt, while retaining the same level of security for the alien side, it becomes more pleasant of an environment to be in. And marines would probably commit suicide less.

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Re: Alien Nest Changes

Post by Arachnidnexus » 10 Dec 2015, 13:35

Eh marines will just rambo and try to rack up those sweet kills if it's easier to escape, in my experience, but I'd be down for nesting changes to see if it can be made more fun for both sides.

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Re: Alien Nest Changes

Post by Davidchan » 10 Dec 2015, 13:55

I've got to say even as a Xeno I hate door spam. They slow you down, and when bringing an infected host back to the nests, speed is everything. I can't begin to count the number of times a host has escaped and/or killed Xenos because I got slowed down from the 50+ doors leading into the hive and running into other xenos who break the drag or just run around on harm/grab/disarm intent all the time like morons and prevent my passage. If a host manages to bolt outside of the checkerboard, its also insanely difficut to put them back in as most disarm slaps and spits will wear off before the xeno can drag them back to the nest since doors take a bit to open and completely halt you. Nests with 2-3 sticky resin tiles in between them can be just as good for nest building since they slow the marine down a lot and allow sentinel castes to spit at them and drag them right back to the nest. But Door spam is prefered because its much harder for marines to counter around it.

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Re: Alien Nest Changes

Post by Wickedtemp » 10 Dec 2015, 20:32

monkeysfist101 wrote:Lore issues aside, the checkerboard door pattern ONLY works on a 2D grid. It physically can not exist in 3D. You would either be able to walk around it, or it wouldn't be able to be traversed from all four directions. It destroys any RP the humans gain from being cocooned together. It's no better than if marines checkerboarded electrified grilles with turrets in between.
Last time I checked, electrified grilles shock on contact and stun you and turrets shoot you... This is in no way comparable to checker nests, which just kinda sit there and, as long as you have a knife, aren't too hard to get out of providing aliens aren't doing their jobs.

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Re: Alien Nest Changes

Post by Hycinth » 12 Dec 2015, 11:47

Wickedtemp wrote: Last time I checked, electrified grilles shock on contact and stun you and turrets shoot you... This is in no way comparable to checker nests, which just kinda sit there and, as long as you have a knife, aren't too hard to get out of providing aliens aren't doing their jobs.
but with the checkerboard nests, the aliens have an absurd time to respond to you getting up, and if you manage to cut down a door, you now have THREE SPACES in a one wide hall to work with! WOO! It's literally no better than having the one tile. The xenos would have to have LITERALLY NO ONE in the nest for someone to not stop you from escaping a checkerboard, unless you're at the very edge.

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Re: Alien Nest Changes

Post by Toroic » 12 Dec 2015, 13:28

Hycinth wrote: but with the checkerboard nests, the aliens have an absurd time to respond to you getting up, and if you manage to cut down a door, you now have THREE SPACES in a one wide hall to work with! WOO! It's literally no better than having the one tile. The xenos would have to have LITERALLY NO ONE in the nest for someone to not stop you from escaping a checkerboard, unless you're at the very edge.
Again though, no decent builder won't have an equally secure nest (though there are many bad builders) so it's not like nest changes would lead to marines having a better time.
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Re: Alien Nest Changes

Post by monkeysfist101 » 12 Dec 2015, 13:41

Toroic wrote: Again though, no decent builder won't have an equally secure nest (though there are many bad builders) so it's not like nest changes would lead to marines having a better time.
On the contrary, I was cocooned along with most of bravo in two long rows of nests with a membrane between us once. The hive was being overwatched by a competent hivelord and a sentinel. We were able to talk to each other the entire time and while there were multiple escape attempts, nobody escaped, nobody commit suicide because we were given the illusion of chance, and everyone bursted. Once we were bursted, we rejoined as larvae and had a good time. After the round, the Hivelord and sentinel were thanked in ooc for making the hive fun to be trapped in. The hive was fun for both sides and left no residual salt. The checkerboard pattern is easier, but it's a copout for hive management.
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Re: Alien Nest Changes

Post by Toroic » 12 Dec 2015, 15:09

monkeysfist101 wrote: On the contrary, I was cocooned along with most of bravo in two long rows of nests with a membrane between us once. The hive was being overwatched by a competent hivelord and a sentinel. We were able to talk to each other the entire time and while there were multiple escape attempts, nobody escaped, nobody commit suicide because we were given the illusion of chance, and everyone bursted. Once we were bursted, we rejoined as larvae and had a good time. After the round, the Hivelord and sentinel were thanked in ooc for making the hive fun to be trapped in. The hive was fun for both sides and left no residual salt. The checkerboard pattern is easier, but it's a copout for hive management.
I think you are mistaken on my position. I'm glad that you had fun with this, and that everyone had a good time. I'd prefer if the best way to nest was also the most fun, but as a hivelord I have a responsibility to help my team win first, and there are a lot of ways things could've gone wrong there.

1) Had the hivelord made a checkerboard, the prae could've handled you himself, essentially wasting the hivelord's time when he could be helping his team elsewhere.

2) Nesting marines next to each other leads to "recently unbuckled" marines that are immune to huggers and nests.

This is an issue because

3) Several unbucked marines could easily break the membrane and unbuckle other marines, leading to all of you being combat ready in just a few seconds.

Or

4) A marine could've thrown several grenades, killing or allowing other marines to succumb.


When playing a competitive game, you cannot use a poor strategy with the assumption that the other team will also use poor strategy.

Had all the marines been playing to win, they would've either escaped or killed half their number, and it would be 100% the fault of the hivelord for providing that oppurtunity.

If this was a roleplaying game, a DM would control all the xenos as well as spawn them in fully formed so they could spend their lives freely to create more fun for the marines, and none of the xenos would involve a personal investment of time/effort.

However, this is a competitive gamemode where a certain level of reasonable RP is expected and enforced with rules.

What you're asking is for xeno players to stop making allowed checkerboards because they aren't fun for marines. Which allowed strategies do marines not use because they aren't fun for xenos?

I am not a fan of emitter death traps at the top of ladders, nor am I a fan of huggers at the bottom. But I have seen marines completely block any attack via engineering or medbay with the use of emitters, and since they can be fired through doors there really isn't a counter. But it is allowed via the rules, so I cannot expect that marines won't use it. I also don't expect marines not to build up against the dropship until a rule changes, because otherwise they are not putting up the best fight that they can.

Likewise, I don't get upset when a marine has multiple grenades and backup weapons after being nested, because that is something they are capable of. In fact, I build assuming that every nested marine will put up such a fight, which is why very few marines ever escape nests I build.

If we encourage sub-par play from both sides via a mutual understanding, eventually powergamers are going to come in and wreck the false balance. (Can you say potass water bluespace grenade?)

If we encourage both sides to be creative in using every tool available, we can make rules prohibiting strategies that make gameplay worse (such as xenos breaching).

Long term, that hivelord going easy on you is going to lead to both of you being salty later when you fight half-assed and get stomped.
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Re: Alien Nest Changes

Post by SkyeAuroline » 12 Dec 2015, 15:16

Thought I voted, apparently never did. +1, I already discussed a lot of this in the shoutbox and with individual people and most of it's already been brought up in here already.

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Re: Alien Nest Changes

Post by LiquidNightfury » 12 Dec 2015, 15:31

monkeysfist101 wrote: On the contrary, I was cocooned along with most of bravo in two long rows of nests with a membrane between us once. The hive was being overwatched by a competent hivelord and a sentinel. We were able to talk to each other the entire time and while there were multiple escape attempts, nobody escaped, nobody commit suicide because we were given the illusion of chance, and everyone bursted. Once we were bursted, we rejoined as larvae and had a good time. After the round, the Hivelord and sentinel were thanked in ooc for making the hive fun to be trapped in. The hive was fun for both sides and left no residual salt. The checkerboard pattern is easier, but it's a copout for hive management.
This. EXACTLY this. There is SO MUCH MORE gameplay to be had if this system is modified to reduce checkerboarding. The entire reason marine suicide exists is that when breaking out of the nest the marine is greeted with one tile of movement and the option to either knife a door three times or knife yourself three times, with the latter being the only one that's actually effective.

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Re: Alien Nest Changes

Post by Hycinth » 12 Dec 2015, 17:54

Toroic wrote: I am not a fan of emitter death traps at the top of ladders

This is evidently against the rules according to TR-BlackDragon who revived all emitter deaths on a deadhour round with 4 marines left, where the xenos had gotten an XenoERT.

Also +1 to the thread, dunno if I said it yet.

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