Changing/Improving on Alien Nesting mechanics

[Daisuke08]

Summary (a quick, 2-3 sentence summary): Queens and maybe hivelords will be able to create a special nest that can't be broken out of from the inside but requires a large investment to create, use, and maintain and possibly has cooldown on each creation. Normal resin nests in return become easier to break out of and possibly can't be made next to resin doors. Chest burster time can be adjusted.

Benefits (How this will benefit the server and game as a whole): This will mainly improve on alien gameplay, allowing the queens and hivelords to build more diverse hives with a very major benefit that doesn't have much drawback. It will get rid of the very tedious and unfun mechanic where aliens are required to checkerboard nest and watch their hosts like a hawk so that marines don't break free and kill themselves the second they get the chance to spite the aliens and deny larva. If an alien is willing to invest that time, the host is pretty much guaranteed to burst and be unable to escape unless there is outside help.

This change will move the time investment needed to watch a host and change it around so it's not required for an alien to stop playing the game just so someone doesn't try to spite them. Instead, it will create a clear difference between the alien's main hive and one made on the spot or by a drone and thus make it clear when you've "lost" as a marine can't save yourself (you've been hugged and brought to the main hive near the queen) and when you can (you got hugged in a fight and an alien dragged you off to a nest 10 tiles away from the fight).

While this may or may not be balanced right off the bat, I think it's something that could be worked with and dealing with the trade-offs would be a good step in the right direction towards making aliens more fun to play.

Details (Description of how you think this would work, the benefits, etc): The queen and possibly the hivelord will get a command that lets them place a nest or, taken from another topic, place a cocoon against a resin wall at the cost of a high amount of plasma and will require maybe a minute or 30 seconds to build. Once built, you can click and drag a host that's 1 tile away and with a small delay you place them into the nest. If the nest is attacked once or the host is released from the nest, it becomes damaged and can't be used until a queen or hivelord clicks it and repairs it at the cost of plasma and another delay.
Normal nests then can't be created by doors to prevent checkerboard nests and breaking out becomes faster.

[andre1999]

From the side of a xeno, i like the new nest idea, but dispise the normal nest change, cuase if they don't do checkerboard pattern, one person will unnest and start unnesting others, the next thing you know, you have from 2, to up to 20 nest immune marines running about with guns inside the hive.

From the side of a marine, i disagree with both, cuase without checkerboard the above stated will happen, and imagine sitting forever stuck in a nest, not being able to to anything at all, it whould net be fun.

-support.

[Daisuke08]

About that second point from the side of the marines, the it's definitely a drawback for marines in those nests, obviously, but the point of it is there should be a point where you "lose" as a marine. Currently a marine doesn't "lose" until the moment they burst which creates the gameplay as alien where you HAVE to watch them until it happens.
This doesn't mean being nested in the suggested nests means you're guaranteed to die, but marines shouldn't deserve multiple chances at escaping and being a hero if they're brought to the main hive and no one is around to save them. It's already like this currently so this doesn't actually change that aspect for marines but it allows aliens to not have to spend 10 minutes doing nothing to make sure that happens while still creating a sort of commitment to the nests that isn't super unfun to do.

[Halinder]

-1.

Inescapable nests? Hell no. Hivelords would make this shit everywhere regardless of cooldowns and plasma. Plasma cost itself is not a good balance factor for something this powerful, as hivelords (the ones that are going to be making these) regenerate at an insane pace. The cooldown, well, hivelords spend all their time in the hive anyway.

[monkeysfist101]

A marine doesn't "lose" until (s)he bursts because there still exist ways for cheap and easy facehugging. Until a lone carrier can't single handedly bring down 5 marines with ease, the marines should still have a chance when nested.
-1

[Wickedtemp]

-1

Nope. Checkerboard nests are here to stay, because they work and they work well. Apop's already said as much.

[coroneljones]

-1

And if you dont like to watch nests,get a sentinel to watch them,its their sole function.

[Hycinth]

aliens are required to checkerboard nest and watch their hosts like a hawk so that marines don't break free and kill themselves the second they get the chance to spite the aliens and deny larva.

This is never required and aliens only do it because they're fucking lazy.

If I get put into a regular nest, I will attempt to escape, free other marines, and cause havoc.

If I'm put in a checkerboard? I'm making every effort to kill myself, because fuck checkerboards.

[Azmodan412]

Let me break the mold here. As a xeno, I make 2x2 or 3x3 nest rooms, because fuck checkerboards. I would like these special nests definitely as both marine and Xeno. Makes this game feel more like AvP: 2010. With my style of nest rooms, it would give more coordination and delay marines saving others, giving xenos time to respond.

My mold breaking +1

Edit 1: Perhaps have only squad leaders and specialists able to be cocooned. Captured Smartgun specialists are a bitch and a half to watch. Besides, it would prevent a SADAR spec from getting out or an SL from getting out and planting a beacon.

Edit 2: Perhaps have a limit to how many cocoons and have the hivelords make them only. Like one for each SL/Spec.

Edit 3: Watching fellow marines chestburst when you can't do anything is morale breaking.

[ParadoxSpace]

Maybe we make it a timed process to free other marines

[Lostmixup]

Normally I'd be against having inescapable nest, but lets be honest the nest are already inescapable. You'll always have some alien watching you, why not just take out the alien watching you? It's not like every nest is inescapable, and this could also only be done by the queen and hivelord so it's not going to be everywhere.

+1

[Azmodan412]

The cocoon would save manpower to shave off, what, two to four xenos watching 6 hosts, so a singular xeno would have to just watch two hosts while four more chill in cocoons. Having them be damaged and unusable after a marine gets free or a xeno pulls a bursted marine out would give more purpose to Hivelords since hive maintenance is their job.

[Mono]

+1

People can say fuck checkerboards all they like, but it only takes one marine to make an entire room full of 2 - 6 other hugger immune marines also nest immune. Fun and RP have to find a means of complementing each other and as it stands the majority of marines are going to either ghost out when nested or break out and cause a ton of problems for the hive. If this isn't implemented then something else needs to be done to allow the checkerboard style nest to fall out of style. Its no wonder most people go runner or run off as sentinel, because they sue as hell don't wanna have to babysit marines when they could be doing something that makes them feel much more useful.

[Azmodan412]

Woo, my input caused two more +1s! Success!

[GracieGrace0]

-1 Its not needed. At all. Nests are already inescapable and that's no fun for the marine, aliens can deal with babysitting them if they don't want to lose their hosts. As said by Hycinth, if I'm in a regular nest i'll try to free other marines. If I'm in a checkerboard I'm killing myself because fuck the checkerboard.

[Toroic]

-1 Its not needed. At all. Nests are already inescapable and that's no fun for the marine, aliens can deal with babysitting them if they don't want to lose their hosts. As said by Hycinth, if I'm in a regular nest i'll try to free other marines. If I'm in a checkerboard I'm killing myself because fuck the checkerboard.

This is a false equivalency.

If a checkerboard is built properly, you won't have time to kill yourself, because it won't be more than 2-3 rows deep.

If you're in a different kind of nest, you have way more time and space to kite, throw grenades, pull the SADAR off your back, etc etc. Oh, and commit suicide.


Checkerboard doesn't make marines commit suicide (which is not even that big a deal anyway, you lose one host. Good hives always have extra, no matter what their nest design is)

Even if a marine gets out of a checkerboard deep in the hive, they aren't going to be able to escape. There are layers of doors and walls and other xenos who are going to stop you. Instead, what 100% of marines do is try to cause as much damage as possible before they die.

The window for marine counterplay is before they are hugged, transported, and safely nested.

I could make an equally secure nest with single nests surrounded by walls with one door. You still would have nowhere to go, no chance to really escape your cell, and nothing would chance except I'd need to use a small amount more space and plasma to store 12 hosts.

Checkerboard nests are space and plasma efficient, but unless you deliberately do a bad job of building, no marine is escaping a nest with xenos guarding them. I just played in a round where xenos won despite having to spend 30 minutes with 80% of the hive spam tackling instead of doing anything more useful because the queen and first drone did a terrible job building. Marines still didn't escape, because every hive ends up honeycombed with small rooms so you can't just run in or out. Some got out of their containment, but then got pounced and dragged back in.

Nests aren't the issue, marine perspective is the issue. You are as dead as a xeno who is shot until they die the moment you get hugged. Everything else that spares you is just a bonus.

[SkyeAuroline]

No opinion on the suggestion proper, but I do have a comment to make with the discussion going on here.

The window for marine counterplay is before they are hugged, transported, and safely nested.

So... the window for marine counterplay is the couple of frames it takes for a thrown hugger to latch onto their face, even less if you're lagging? Because as soon as they get hugged, they're fucked. Period.

[Toroic]

No opinion on the suggestion proper, but I do have a comment to make with the discussion going on here.
So... the window for marine counterplay is the couple of frames it takes for a thrown hugger to latch onto their face, even less if you're lagging? Because as soon as they get hugged, they're fucked. Period.

Except every helmet blocks at least one hugger, and lag hurts everyone. That's more counterplay than xenos get from a SADAR. But that's fine. Other marines still can rescue you, as other xenos can save a xeno in crit. You get similarly low success rates.

[Arachnidnexus]

To be fair, xenos get a caste that can shrug off SADAR shots. Marines don't get a role that is basically immune to huggers unless they're infected (at which point they're likely nested or going to burst).

[Varnock]

Yeah but any infected marine with a goddamn SADAR is going to wreck everything nearby, and likely themselves too. Infected marines are the WORST thing for any hive to have to fight against. They're faster than aliens and have long ranged weapons, where as aliens only have one ranged caste tree that can do anything to infected, or pouncing, which is terribly unreliable in lag heavy rounds. I really like the sound of these nests, +1 from me for glorious hivebuilding and hopefully not hearing explosives every two minutes when someone busts out of a nest.

[Toroic]

To be fair, xenos get a caste that can shrug off SADAR shots. Marines don't get a role that is basically immune to huggers unless they're infected (at which point they're likely nested or going to burst).

They get a caste that can shrug off HE SADAR shots, but gets wrecked by AP shots.

Every infected marine gets several minutes where they are immune to huggers, and frankly the specialist helms already block three.

The biggest mistake I see marines making is not expecting a xeno behind every corner.

When you come to a corner, swing wide so you can't get hug-slapped. If it's a carrier, well good luck and hope you have a good squad behind you. For everyone else, hug range is just a few tiles, and marines run faster.

[Arachnidnexus]

That ignores every gap-closing ability that xenos have. But on topic again, changing nesting mechanics would be nice. Checkerboard nesting is pretty boring and necessary but also terrible for actual gameplay enjoyment. Not sure permanent nesting is a good change but current checkerboarding, while a legit tactic, is just not very fun for either side.

[Toroic]

That ignores every gap-closing ability that xenos have. But on topic again, changing nesting mechanics would be nice. Checkerboard nesting is pretty boring and necessary but also terrible for actual gameplay enjoyment. Not sure permanent nesting is a good change but current checkerboarding, while a legit tactic, is just not very fun for either side.

I agree that the current situation isn't particularly fun, but it's really not checkerboarding, it's secure nest-building.

I can make a nest that is just as not-fun for marines, and has no checkerboarding. We could completely ban checkerboarding, and the marine experience would not be much different.


Marines escaping is just too devastating given how fragile walls and doors are, and being hug immune means that a t1 or even t2 will struggle against a marine. A smartgun marine who gets out of a nest almost always causes a significant amount of trouble. If not dealt with they'd rapidly kill every larva and egg in the hive.

[Hycinth]

About that second point from the side of the marines, the it's definitely a drawback for marines in those nests, obviously, but the point of it is there should be a point where you "lose" as a marine. Currently a marine doesn't "lose" until the moment they burst which creates the gameplay as alien where you HAVE to watch them until it happens.
This doesn't mean being nested in the suggested nests means you're guaranteed to die, but marines shouldn't deserve multiple chances at escaping and being a hero if they're brought to the main hive and no one is around to save them. It's already like this currently so this doesn't actually change that aspect for marines but it allows aliens to not have to spend 10 minutes doing nothing to make sure that happens while still creating a sort of commitment to the nests that isn't super unfun to do.

The instant you're placed in a checkerboard nest, you lose.

[Wickedtemp]

The instant you're placed in a checkerboard nest, you lose.

You can escape from a checkerboard nest. I've seen marines do that, and I've done it myself. You get up, grab a knife, start cutting through the doors and hope that an alien isn't behind the door you're cutting down. If there isn't an alien, move to the next door. Repeat until free.