Aliens + hugger rework and buffs

[Ninjah!]

Summary (a quick, 2-3 sentence summary): Keep huggers in the hive and buff aliens, shifting the focus from hugger stunning to actual xeno strength.

Benefits (How this will benefit the server and game as a whole): Make aliens more fun, allow for alien speed buffs without huggers being a major issue, prevent the salt from runner drop hugger, fix the hugger immune issue

Details (Description of how you think this would work, the benefits, etc): Most important one: huggers can no longer be hatched or carried around by aliens. Instead the only way for huggers to come out is to have an uninfected person next to them. This way there are several buffs that are needed for aliens that can be implemented without full on outbalancing.

The first thing that likely comes to mind is: What about carriers? They'd neef a full rework of abilities. If a good idea that everyone agrees on is found I'll edit it in here
Now the buffs can come in: Speed buff. Everyone is annoyed that aliens are so slow which just isn't correct with the lore and takes away alot of the fun. Previously if you were to give the aliens a speed buff they would be able to get into hugger range to easily. Since that isn't a thing anymore speed could easily be buffed to a point where aliens become more fun to play due to their agility and be more lore friendly.
Secomd, (bring back) permatackle. Don't change the tackle duration, just allow tackles to be triggerd while someone is already down (maybe nerf some of the longer tackles so it can't be over stacked easily). This way it again, is more lore friendly and hugger immunity becomes less of an issue.

Implementation (Optional, if you have an idea how to implement it):

EDIT 1: edited in a part at the summary based off recent replies
EDIT 2: Changed the carrier part.

[Stivan34]

Really bad, You mean removing a caste completely? And most people isn't good at spamtackling to hive. This would be nightmarish -1

[ChickenShizNit8]

NOOOOOOOOOOPE

-1

PRETTY much what Stivan said

[Ninjah!]

Really bad, You mean removing a caste completely? And most people isn't good at spamtackling to hive. This would be nightmarish -1

How do you know if its not even in yet? Also that caste is holding down the rest of the castes to get buffs to become playable again. I think it's a sacrafice that has to be made

[Stivan34]

How do you know if its not even in yet? Also that caste is holding down the rest of the castes to get buffs to become playable again. I think it's a sacrafice that has to be made

That caste is one of the best, It shouldn't be removed. Can easily facehug 3 marines or more, If it's removed it would make aliens lose more.

[Ninjah!]

That caste is one of the best, It shouldn't be removed. Can easily facehug 3 marines or more, If it's removed it would make aliens lose more.

Which is why you buff aliens with extra speed and perma tackle

[Arachnidnexus]

What I feel like not many people are getting is that Ninjah! wants to shift the emphasis of xeno power away from facehuggers and into speed, damage, abilities, etc. Right now facehuggers are so powerful that they allow aliens to get shafted everywhere else power-wise and still pull out victories. Huggers and weed regen are basically the two things that make aliens viable, but the current use of huggers is imo pretty bad game design.

If huggers are nerfed a bit and made more like lore (protected and valuable assets) then aliens might be able to get buffs everywhere else without turning them OP. I'm in favor of trying something like this out just to test if it leads to better gameplay feel and enjoyment.

[Wickedtemp]

I'd agree...

At the moment, the hugger stuns are one of the main reasons Xenos are fairing the way they are. If they're just removed, xenos would get stomped practically every round, and how else could xenos actually infect people outside the hive? Dragging back a live marine without them killing you is damn near impossible when the marines run faster than every xeno caste save for runners/crushers and can kill a xeno with three to five bullets.

But, hugger stuns are so good, normally, that they're the main reason used to prevent xenos from getting any further buffs even when they're needed for legitimate balancing.

So, if huggers are to be confined to the hive, the aliens would need the following:

Generic buffs for health/speed since they won't be able to hugger-stun a marine anymore.
An alternative way to stun or otherwise non-lethally incapacitate a marine to transfer them to the nest.

[Ninjah!]

I'd agree...

At the moment, the hugger stuns are one of the main reasons Xenos are fairing the way they are. If they're just removed, xenos would get stomped practically every round, and how else could xenos actually infect people outside the hive? Dragging back a live marine without them killing you is damn near impossible when the marines run faster than every xeno caste save for runners/crushers and can kill a xeno with three to five bullets.

But, hugger stuns are so good, normally, that they're the main reason used to prevent xenos from getting any further buffs even when they're needed for legitimate balancing.

So, if huggers are to be confined to the hive, the aliens would need the following:

Generic buffs for health/speed since they won't be able to hugger-stun a marine anymore.
An alternative way to stun or otherwise non-lethally incapacitate a marine to transfer them to the nest.

What I feel like not many people are getting is that Ninjah! wants to shift the emphasis of xeno power away from facehuggers and into speed, damage, abilities, etc. Right now facehuggers are so powerful that they allow aliens to get shafted everywhere else power-wise and still pull out victories. Huggers and weed regen are basically the two things that make aliens viable, but the current use of huggers is imo pretty bad game design.

If huggers are nerfed a bit and made more like lore (protected and valuable assets) then aliens might be able to get buffs everywhere else without turning them OP. I'm in favor of trying something like this out just to test if it leads to better gameplay feel and enjoyment.

You guys get my point perfectly. Also yes a health buff will probally be needed because right now all it takes is a small lag spike to kill most T2s and T1s. But that's another debate. The question right now is: should this focus be shifted?

[forwardslashN]

Neutral right now, leaning on +1. Going in the right direction, but a few concerns:
1. I don't think removing Carriers is necessary. You could probably balance around them, if it comes to that. But I dunno, I guess removing them is also an option. Right now they're really annoying no matter how you slice it.
2. I think queens and hivelords should be able to carry huggers, since they primarily work in the hive, and the queen even has those tiny rex arms for fine manipulation. Granted, if huggers can no longer be retrieved at all, then sure.
3. I really dislike perma tackling. One, there is no way to counter it and two it is ridiculously robust (alternate tackle and harm, for example). It's about as cheap as hugger stunning, probably more since you can't even get up at all. I suggest making grab actually do something instead, and limiting tackling to more of a disarm/push back.

Everything else is alright.

[Fritigern]

This seems like a familiar suggestion...

[Halinder]

Neutral leaning towards +1. Something this big needs a lot more discussion.

-Carriers: There are two ways I'd fix this. The first way is giving carriers the ability to move eggs. The second is removing the throw ability, but keeping their ability to move facehuggers.
-With the new facehugger AI, the egg idea won't be so bad as long as the Queen herself can still open eggs.
-Instead of perma tackling, why not return the alien ability to grab? Xenomorphs will have to fight marines long enough to grab them aggressively (neck grab, not hand grab) then be able to deliver a swift (2-3 second charge) bite to the skull. It will deal 25 brute damage, but cause lots of brain damage (exploding guns would have to be removed) or knock them out for a significant amount of time.
-Runners and hunters. The only difference between the two is that the latter is stronger, slower, and can cloak. There's really not a huge change in abilities, since cloaking isn't too great anyways. Maybe change hunters to lurkers, and have them be able to use 100 plasma for a 'burrow' ability that digs a small pit in the ground (less obvious version of the soil sprite) that they can hide in. This would cost them the ability to pounce in exchange for burrowing and cloaking. Then again, it would make them pretty useless on the Sulaco, unless cloaking got a buff as well..
-Alternatively, runners could be changed to the 'night cougar' xenomorph, removing the pounce ability. However, that's venturing into NPC territory, since night cougar xenos have parasitic bat friends that chase down fleeing hosts.

[Disco Dalek]

Going to have to go with a +1.

I really like the thought of changing up the way huggers currently work. Any xeno buffs needed to balance this out would be well worth it. I've mentioned in other threads how I'd even be ok with nests being impossible to escape from on your own if the xenos actually had to drag you back to the hive instead of the instant knockout we currently have.

In regards to the lore, while I know it's not always the deciding factor, this change would fit in perfectly. Huggers probably wouldn't be tossed around like dodge balls. It also seems unlikely an extremely well trained and physically fit marine would be unable to fend off one of these things for even a few seconds. From what I understand, huggers are mostly used when someone is incapable of defending themselves. Personally, I love the thought of people having time to yell for help as they're being dragged off rather than be instantly silenced before they have a chance to type a word.

The only thing I have an issue with is the perma tackle aspect. As has been mentioned before, some form of grabbing seems more suitable.

[ZDashe]

I'm all for testing a new concept. However, with regards to perma tackling only, -1. I think that generates more salt than hugger stunning...

Imagine if this suggestion is implemented, what might happen is that marines get tackle killed more often if Xenos go on the assault. If they are not assaulting, then Xenos become the ones turtling, luring the marines into their hugger nest instead. Another area of concern I foresee is that after marines get infected in the hive, it becomes near impossible to escape the hive even without being actively watched. Struggle free > escape vicinity of nest > Xeno spots you at hive entrance > Get tackle spammed > helplessly renested.

So, are these outcomes what you envision Xeno gameplay should be like? Just some food for thought.

[ParadoxSpace]

As long as it's literally impossible for marines to resist out of a Xeno belly.
Or perhaps instead of devouring they just straight drag people off without a chance of escape if they're alone.
Either way.

[Ninjah!]

Alot of people complain about the permatackle but this would require one alien to be occupied with one marine (max. 2 depending on tackle time). With the current ratio that's really bad for aliens to do during a fight. They would have to have a good overweight in a battle for it to be possible to do.

[MrGabol100]

My big +1, people do not seem to understand you, and think of this as a nerf, but appart from being more lore-friendly, it shifts the whole point of the game into more action than get hugged and die.

It's not about if the hugger got on you, now it's about if the ALIEN got you, huggers in the movies come directly out of the eggs, Abby said that there was going to be a code so that when aliens are fresh out of the egg they pursue uninfected humans, that summed to this makes a very interesting shift of the alien power, where the infection part is just infecting the captured humans, and the combat part is not about infecting the humans anymore.

As long as it's literally impossible for marines to resist out of a Xeno belly.
Or perhaps instead of devouring they just straight drag people off without a chance of escape if they're alone.
Either way.

That's the point, aliens drag you on the floor to the hive, so you can't wake up, devouring should only work to transfer infected hosts while inside the hive, not as a capturing method.

I'm all for testing a new concept. However, with regards to perma tackling only, -1. I think that generates more salt than hugger stunning...

Imagine if this suggestion is implemented, what might happen is that marines get tackle killed more often if Xenos go on the assault. If they are not assaulting, then Xenos become the ones turtling, luring the marines into their hugger nest instead. Another area of concern I foresee is that after marines get infected in the hive, it becomes near impossible to escape the hive even without being actively watched. Struggle free > escape vicinity of nest > Xeno spots you at hive entrance > Get tackle spammed > helplessly renested.

So, are these outcomes what you envision Xeno gameplay should be like? Just some food for thought.

Fix: Aliens can't click for anything while pulling something (Well, they can click unpull), so now they wouldn't be able to slash at you while they drag you, they are supossed to be running forwards real fast, not dragging you like a corpse while beating you.

[Davidchan]

I could get behind giving the Alien castes are varying degree of bullet resistance, better health and speed.

But god fucking do NOT bring back perma-stuns. Those things were cancer and worse than huggers in terms of no counter and would only make marines turtle more if Xenos could freely floor an entire squad if they get in arms lenght, making corning even more of a problem.

A plasma powered tackle or melee strike would be better, something akin to tailslashing that could toggle on and required plasma to maintain and execute, Xenos should feel a need of urgency to get their prey back to the hive, not keep the hive floored for 15 minutes as they dick around waiting for a drone or carrier to come up with a hugger.

[KingKire]

So to reopen an old thread, whats people's thoughts on having huggers reworked? I really like the idea of only having the drone teir of aliens be able to carry huggers ( it seems a little too cruel to only have carriers be able to carry huggers for aliens)

-gives more incentive to play an under used branch of the alien tree.

- puts more focus on aliens trying to capture marines and dragging them to the nests, slowly moving the nests (and the action) closer to where marines are at as time goes on, which gives more combat, etc.

- As said up above, having every alien carrying huggers use up alot of the "power" budget for all aliens, forcing them to carry huggers or seem weak by comparison. Taking some of that power away from hugger combat allows aliens to get other interesting buffs in exchange for the loss.

- Hugger combat can feel pretty stale overall, its not paticularly engaging, and tends to be " are you wearing a helmet? did the aliens carry two huggers". It can feel pretty cheesy tactic when every alien has the chance to throw huggers instead of a unique aspect that marines should watch out for like the crushers charge or the queens screech.

[Snypehunter007]

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