SADAR

[Boltersam]

Okay, okay.

Remember when we had the vote about the space map and SADAR? I DO believe space map won, and it was told that SADAR would be removed.

-Several months later-
Still here, still making me and other alien players salty.
The power to instantly erase a tier 3's progress instantly shouldn't be wielded by any player, yet it is. No matter the debuffs, it instantly destroys several xenos, low-tier and tier 3 alike.
WHY? Just...why?

I'm not trying to get above myself, but I really hate the SADAR, and since it was said that it would be removed, and hasn't, I'm going to complain.

[Seehund]

The SADAR does not work on the SPACE MAP.

Also, it's an anti-tank rocket. Not sure what the expectations are.

[apophis775]

Oh, I found a way around having to remove the SADAR. Basically, the "safety" system, that only lets the SADAR fire on the planet-map.

[Veradox]

The M83 has a lot of drawbacks including it's intense situational usages, where in long or cramped sieges you're either going to go down by braving the front line or not be able to fire it due to bodyblockers along the way. It's pretty hard to use and there's only about fifteen percent of people that genuinely bring it around (and don't kill themselves in the process) considering the versatility of the other selections, either by range, ammunition storage, suppression capabilities or whatever.

Basically, unless you have a squad or a team in general that's willing to cooperate or you've mastered movement tracking/reacting then you're going to have a hard time using it, so it's not really the map presence you might expect unless it's held by one of those sadistic robust guys. You probably just have really shit luck.

[Sargeantmuffinman]

Oh, I found a way around having to remove the SADAR. Basically, the "safety" system, that only lets the SADAR fire on the planet-map.

He means why it's not completely removed from the game.

[Boltersam]

I'm not going to blame failure on "Bad luck".

But yeah, I've seen a lot of people die from it, and have suffered death from it. I don't get why such a powerful (albeit situational) weapon is even there.

[Sikillgard]

The M83 has a lot of drawbacks including it's intense situational usages, where in long or cramped sieges you're either going to go down by braving the front line or not be able to fire it due to bodyblockers along the way. It's pretty hard to use and there's only about fifteen percent of people that genuinely bring it around (and don't kill themselves in the process) considering the versatility of the other selections, either by range, ammunition storage, suppression capabilities or whatever.

Basically, unless you have a squad or a team in general that's willing to cooperate or you've mastered movement tracking/reacting then you're going to have a hard time using it, so it's not really the map presence you might expect unless it's held by one of those sadistic robust guys. You probably just have really shit luck.

I don't think it's drawbacks balances the M83 very well, in fact, I don't think it's hampered by them at all when used in action.

It doesn't take much to communicate that you have the SADAR, I've seen SADAR users stomping up the cave tunnel no problem wielding the tube of Fuck You and deliver their payload, then scamper back to reload safely. If marines are in the way, then they push past them until they get a clear line of fire, with 2-3 tiles away from any marines so they're not blocked due to someone using help intent.

I don't think it's a very situational weapon either. Because there's no delay in clicking and firing, a spec can get a shot off with little difficulty, whether it's in a building, in the open field, or in the tunnels. They pop in, lob a shot, then pop out. It's not like an orbital where aliens get time to move out of the way. The only thing I'm thinking of that makes the SADAR situational is it's limited ammo and it's AOE, restricting it's use in extremely small 1-3x3 tile rooms.

In all my visuals of a SADAR in action, every spec I've come across had been very careful not to use it. They've been very accurate with it, and I don't think it's hard to be accurate, considering a lack of restrictions or delay to fire the weapon, and that the majority of the targets are T3s.

Yes, this IS the SADAR's job, being a high-powered AOE weapon. But contrary to what you think, I believe that SADARs are far too easy to use to justify it. Like I said - pop in, fire, pop out. There's no distinct disadvantages when firing the SADAR other than watching for its AOE and other marines. I'm not saying that SADARs doesn't have the problem of friendly fire; that's a universal problem with ANY weapon. Still, any fights with the xenoes involve a quasi no-man's-land that takes up half or more and even pass the visual range, with each side moving back and forth quickly to catch either side off-guard. That land is enough for any SADAR users to shoot (with a clear LOS) without any worry for AOE. Potential collateral because a marine was too close to a xeno rarely happens (in my experience) because the first thing a xeno does when she spots a M83 is to RUN.

[Azmodan412]

In my experiences as Spec, I have used the SADAR three times and all three times, I tested the blast radius. Here are my findings

1. High Explosive Shells: 3x3 radius, heavier damage
2. Armor Piercing Shells: 3x3 radius, more damage against armored targets like Crushers and the Queen.

As Praetorian 740, SADAR rounds now have a 5x5 blast radius and can instantly crit any T3 with one round. Why is that?

[Arachnidnexus]

In my experiences as Spec, I have used the SADAR three times and all three times, I tested the blast radius. Here are my findings

1. High Explosive Shells: 3x3 radius, heavier damage
2. Armor Piercing Shells: 3x3 radius, more damage against armored targets like Crushers and the Queen.

As Praetorian 740, SADAR rounds now have a 5x5 blast radius and can instantly crit any T3 with one round. Why is that?

HE rockets have an oddish radius that's sometimes not exactly 3x3. Have noticed that as a runner facing off against SADAR specs many times. I mean it might be because of lag, but you can definitely get clipped outside of the 3x3 radius if it's HE.

[Wickedtemp]

Marines whine about huggers being insta-stuns.

But the Xenos have to suffer through actual instant deaths given to them at range.

I've seen ONE SADAR user go Rambo and wipe out the Queen and every T3 that was around them, because apparently a Marine carrying this huge-ass launcher still sprints around faster than most of the xeno castes.

[GGgobbleCC]

Marines whine about huggers being insta-stuns.

But the Xenos have to suffer through actual instant deaths given to them at range.

I've seen ONE SADAR user go Rambo and wipe out the Queen and every T3 that was around them, because apparently a Marine carrying this huge-ass launcher still sprints around faster than most of the xeno castes.

"Its a feature."- Apop

[Arachnidnexus]

The obvious solution is to give Carriers HE Huggers and AP Huggers as well.

[RadiantFlash]

is it just me, or do people ignore the crushers near immunity to explosions? I mean fuck, If you have sadar specialists, go crusher until it get takendown/runs out of ammo

[Azmodan412]

Still knocks down, I believe.

[RadiantFlash]

Still knocks down, I believe.

Nope. Blinds for a split second, but no knockdown. Crushers are uneffected by explosions, though, they take some damage.

[Sikillgard]

Nope. Blinds for a split second, but no knockdown. Crushers are uneffected by explosions, though, they take some damage.

But not everybody's a crusher, nor crushers are the majority of xenoes. What's to stop a spec from NOT firing at a crusher. More - what's a crusher to do when the rocket's AOE hits OTHER xenoes?

Don't forget AP rockets. So even Crushers can be countered by the weapon it's suppose to counter.

[RadiantFlash]

But not everybody's a crusher, nor crushers are the majority of xenoes. What's to stop a spec from NOT firing at a crusher. More - what's a crusher to do when the rocket's AOE hits OTHER xenoes?

Don't forget AP rockets. So even Crushers can be countered by the weapon it's suppose to counter.

Not everyones a SADAR specialist, either. it's usually 1-2 at most, and on super rarications, 3-4 sadars, despite that being really rare.

We just had a round against three sadars in fact. They ended up killing all of the early gameish hunters (Me included, sadly). However, one hunter finally evolved into a crusher, and was happily taking all of there rockets. No other xeno got sadared again the entire round.

As for the AOE, If your bunched up, directly adjacent to a crusher, thats kind of a problem. You'd want to be behind or back off to the side, because it's taking the bullets for you.
Edit: And uh, AP rockets don't kill. They fucking hurt, yeah, but they won't kill a crusher.

[Egorkor]

Hi, I'm that sadistic fuck that delivers a payload into the T3's throat every time, and I've literally no idea why SADAR'd radius was touched, because HE is now 4x4 or even 5x5. This is gonna give us rocketeers troubles with pointblanking queens now, but I see it as an even more pain in the ass for the aliens.
I'd personally like the SADAR to stay as it was but eh, you saw the beginning of the post. All I can advise is to hunt us down, it's actually easy especially when we reload. Use cooperation and we ain't gonna be a problem. Probably.

[Azmodan412]

Probably being the operative word. It is nigh impossible to get you when you are squadding up. Besides, my salt when I was Praetorian 740 was a round where the Queen didn't even know how to chat in hivemind so she was TOTALLY useless. I had to run the hive in her stead.

[Boltersam]

Probably being the operative word. It is nigh impossible to get you when you are squadding up. Besides, my salt when I was Praetorian 740 was a round where the Queen didn't even know how to chat in hivemind so she was TOTALLY useless. I had to run the hive in her stead.

Remember the first half when she couldn't even allow slashing? yeesh....

More on-topic,
If people want the SADAR to stay, then make it like a proper rocket launcher. you need to kneel before using it, aim, and brace for the kickback....should take a couple seconds, like the boiler's bombard, enough warning for marines and aliens alike to get the fuck out of the way.

[Steelpoint]

If you really want to """balance""" the SADAR without making it as clunky and obtrusive as possible to use, then simply severally limit the ammo for the SADAR.

I'm not one to entertain further nerfs to the weapon but the biggest constraint to using the SADAR, coming from someone who predominately uses a SADAR whenever I'm not a MD, is the availability of ammo.

Sure, I can near instantly kill a T1/T2 Xeno and really put a dent in a T3 Xeno, but I only have so many rockets to expend. A simple nerf may be to make it that you can't Orbital Drop SADAR rockets and they have to be manually moved to a Dropship.

Edit: Of course this is assuming we want to nerf it at all, but I digress.

[Sikillgard]

Not everyones a SADAR specialist, either. it's usually 1-2 at most, and on super rarications, 3-4 sadars, despite that being really rare.

We just had a round against three sadars in fact. They ended up killing all of the early gameish hunters (Me included, sadly). However, one hunter finally evolved into a crusher, and was happily taking all of there rockets. No other xeno got sadared again the entire round.

As for the AOE, If your bunched up, directly adjacent to a crusher, thats kind of a problem. You'd want to be behind or back off to the side, because it's taking the bullets for you.
Edit: And uh, AP rockets don't kill. They fucking hurt, yeah, but they won't kill a crusher.

If the sadar users waste their ammo on the crushers and the xenoes are communicating to let the crusher tank, that's great. I'd like to hear more of that. Yet I rarely DO see that, as it seems like the meta has only started to catch up. Most of the time I've seen it's not the case - but alas that's just my experience.

Obviously if you're bunched up it's going to hurt. But the xenoes can't be with a crusher all the time - they would harass and surround the marines in various points or locations, else they bunch up into a convenient target (eg:hydro). Certainly that xenoes would form the latter to make a siege or push the nexus, but they can't afford the luxury of grouping up ALL the time; that just makes them easy to pinpoint and surround. The crusher can't be everywhere, and the other hand the SADAR doesn't need to be everywhere. It's the crusher countering the SADAR, not the other way around.

[Sikillgard]

If you really want to """balance""" the SADAR without making it as clunky and obtrusive as possible to use, then simply severally limit the ammo for the SADAR.

I'm not one to entertain further nerfs to the weapon but the biggest constraint to using the SADAR, coming from someone who predominately uses a SADAR whenever I'm not a MD, is the availability of ammo.

Sure, I can near instantly kill a T1/T2 Xeno and really put a dent in a T3 Xeno, but I only have so many rockets to expend. A simple nerf may be to make it that you can't Orbital Drop SADAR rockets and they have to be manually moved to a Dropship.

Edit: Of course this is assuming we want to nerf it at all, but I digress.

I quickly glanced at the wiki and - lo and behold - the M83 shouldn't even have ammo in the first place.

http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/M83_SADAR

From the Overview:
"The M83A2 SADAR is a lightweight one-shot anti-armor weapon capable of engaging enemy vehicles at ranges up to 1,000m. Fully disposable, the rocket's launcher is discarded after firing..."

So actually, the current ingame SADAR is bloody lore-breaking.

Of course, for the sake of argument, I shouldn't leave out this bit:
"...the rocket, a fire-and-forget weapon, guides itself toward the target."

So if we were to change the sadar in terms of lore and ammo sparsity, it would be literally a one-shot, one use weapon, but buffed with guided-rockets. My suggestion would be to make the rocketeer's role a two-man schtick - one the rocketeer, one bearing extra rockets.

If this is all bullshit and gets a -1 from everyone or if it's too hard to code etc etc, we could just change the SADAR with Boltersam's idea. In fact, it's supported by the wiki too:
"operators must allow for backblast. The rear of the blast tube is packed with small plastic slivers which fire backward on launch of the rocket and absorb much of this backblast; nonetheless, a cleared backblast zone of 10 meters behind the weapon is recommended, and care should be taken when launching the rocket from confined spaces"

Disclaimer: Everything I know comes from that wiki page. If anyone has any sources that says otherwise about the SADAR, feel free to share.

Edit: To counter a point in your post - ammo from the sulaco is already mainly through the dropship. Also, if you as a spec run out of ammo, you're free to run back to the LZ and wait for a resupply. A squad beacon is a one-use luxury, two or three times if RO's feeling generous to grant your SL more beacons.

[Arachnidnexus]

Eh, if we're going with lore breaking aliens shouldn't use huggers to stun decap. One burst from a M41 should kill T2s, one swipe from an alien should insta-kill a marine, etc. etc. Also huggers wouldn't be carried around by any castes other than Carrier and the huggers would be so valuable that a single marine with a flamer could walk out unscathed from the main hive by just threatening to burn the eggs.

But back on topic, I'd be pretty okay if SADARs and Carriers were both removed to be honest. There's more counterplay against the Carrier than against the SADAR but in both cases it's not really fun for the other side. And I say this as someone who plays Carrier a lot and has also played against the SADAR a fair bit (fuck the SADAR).

[RadiantFlash]

While the crusher can't be everywhere, it doesn't NEED to be everywhere. As stated prior, there usually isn't that many sadar specialists, if there even is one or two. Not to mention, you can have more then one crusher, and if the alien runners don't suicide in the marines so often, you can have quite a few crushers and ravagers.

It's only one-two marines for the most part, that will have a sadar. It's simply a matter, of aliens not engaging that particular group, until a crusher can help them deal with it.
As for lack of communication on the alien part, thats a bit of a behavioral issue on the xeno players. They can't do the alien equivilant of "rambo" anymore on more then one marine reliably. Eventually, people will learn that teamwork makes wonders of the marines.