Allow Spec Equipment to be Bought from Requisitions

[Sanchez13]

!	Message from: Sanchez13
	READ THIS ENTIRE POST BEFORE REPLYING, PLEASE!

I don't want anyone to be misinformed of what I'm proposing, this is just to give the Marines an edge against the Xenos late-game, typically after most of the Spec equipment has been taken away due to Xenos.

Summary (a quick, 2-3 sentence summary):

Allow specialist equipment (e.g. M42C, grenade launcher, smart-gun kit) or tokens to be purchased from RO. Their price can be boosted (i.e. 100-150) to be even double the Flamer crate, or cost as much as a Sentry (200) EACH in order to offset the power of such a feature. Can include or exclude extra ammo.

Benefits (How this will benefit the server and game as a whole):

Ensures that the marines will be capable of applying offensive pressure throughout the game to late game, even if the original specialists have been killed. Should help encourage assaults against T3's without making every attack as permanently costly to marines. Also discourages Marine camping due to them being capable of continuing to apply offensive measures even if the original Specialists have been killed or robbed by the aliens.

Details (Description of how you think this would work, the benefits, etc):

There appears to be a parabolic power curve between the marines and aliens within this game. As the aliens grow stronger with numbers and castes, the marines appear to weaken over time due to things such as supply issues and lost personnel. Although SLs can be replaced if lost due to beacon and SL armor crates, the death of a Spec permanently impacts the capability of marines to effectively lead a charge against a properly organized alien horde, ESPECIALLY against T3's which tend to resist regular bullets. With such lost momentum, the marines are forced to go on the defensive until they gain significantly more men for an attack, allowing the Xenos to grow in size and castes to the point of being capable of wiping out an entire Marine platoon within moments. Not to mention the USS Sulaco is meant to be "the first line of defense and top security force across all extraterrestrial settlements." (from wiki) It thus not only makes RP sense for the USCM to be capable of ordering new specialist gear (though it would be expensive due to the equipment being state-of-the-art), but it offsets such an aforementioned parabolic power curve just to the point that the marines can still pose a challenging, effective threat to the aliens even late-game. It's also a good trade-off to the marine's supply options against the infamous, camp-friendly sentry: "Should we order a sentry to cover the FoB, or should we order one/two Spec pieces to refit our men for an attack?"

It also helps when Specialists go Rambo or are otherwise unable to fight, ensuring that the majority of a platoon's firepower does NOT become permanently centralized into 4 distinct, vulnerable Marines, or has to rely entirely on manpower, but can be shifted as needed.


EDIT: This system does NOT affect, replace, or supersede the Specialist randomized role, does NOT make it obsolete, and is independent of such a role despite optional ID confirmation. It is merely to grant the marines enough firepower to be effective late-game, giving even the T3's an effective, engaging challenge. This is to encourage marine offensive manoeuvres and discourage marine camping late-game, given that Specialist equipment is more effective for assaults than sentries, mines, and walls.

It also DOES NOT have to need a Specialist ID to be ordered unless it would balance out such a mechanic, being able to be ordered from RO just like the sentries, flame-throwers, and SL armor kit. If you guys want it however, feel free to encourage the need for a Specialist ID.

It however REQUIRES THE RO'S PERMISSION AS WITH ALL OTHER ORDERS, AND CAN BE DENIED. It is a crate, after all, and the RO has the final say since it has to be ordered by him, overruled only by Command.

It is NOT TIED TO DNA WHATSOEVER. That would defeat it's purpose.

It can ALSO be ordered by Command as with any other crate, if needed. They override RO and the Specialist in rank, anyways, so they should easily be able to order whatever they want. (Of course if you guys don't want this, it's fine.)

!	Message from: Sanchez13
	Extra Note: Before you talk about supply points, know that there has been a recent nerf of Phoron sheets giving Marines -200 points, if not OUTRIGHT refusing to be sent. So good luck getting over 200+ points and more than one Spec kit/token at a time in a round, ESPECIALLY with a competent RO.

Implementation (Optional, if you have an idea how to implement it):

Probably takes a bit of coding to add a new/some new specialist crates to the RO list for ordering. Can include either the spec guns with their respective ammo, or tokens (possibly with ammo as well, though this is purely optional).

[Boltersam]

No SADAR. No. Fucking. Way.

Everything else is a good idea though. +1, but no SADAR.

[Sargeantmuffinman]

So let me give you a scenario.

Some how requisitons gathers 1000 points.

What do you think they're gonna spend it on?

A hell of a ton of spec gear.

The specialist is an inexpendable marine which I assume all specs know. They are valuable and if they get caught and slaughtered, then it's GG for the player. This also has long term effects when a spec is lost as they can't be replaced giving the aliens the upper hand in the long-term.

The RO just ordering new gear from requistions is like buying a cup of tea with long term effects that benefit them.

I do like the idea of ordering in specialist gear BUT I would like to alter it to keep it fair:

Alternate suggestion:

ONLY the specialist can order them in and no one else.
Not even command.
Meaning the specialist can only order SPEC gear and no one else (not even those who have access to the ship).
The specialist MUST use their ID card to scan the supply console to be able to order it in.
The marine can choose only what they have lost meaning, they don't get to choose anything else other than the kit they dispensed (example: A spec dispenses a B18 suit and can only order more B18 suits OR helmets but not any other specialist weaponery)

The cost for all of them would be EXTREMELY high in supply points as they are, anti-tier 2-3 weaponery.

My suggestion for the supply points:

B18 armour:300

SADAR:700

Smartgunners kit:400

Sniper rifle kit:500

Grenade launcher kit:450

These are just my thoughts on it.

[Steelpoint]

Prenote I play Spec most of the time when I'm not a doc, so take that into your bias radar.

I disagree with allowing cargo to order in Spec equipment, however I do like the idea of allowing a Spec to order replacements for their kit while pricing it to a insane range so they can't spam it out for everyone.

Right now its a standard strategy to steal the Spec's weapon and acid it as a Alien, since by doing that you just shat all over their unique item and have effectively removed one of the four most powerful marines.

With Aliens if a Ravager dies another one will soon evolve into one, if a Spec's weapon is stolen its ggnore for them. But allowing living Specs to order a backup for lost equipment suddenly at least forces Aliens to try and kill/capture the Spec (and his ID Card) instead of just lol stunning and dragging/aciding his weapon.

[Sanchez13]

So let me give you a scenario.

Some how requisitons gathers 1000 points.

What do you think they're gonna spend it on?

A hell of a ton of spec gear.

The specialist is an inexpendable marine which I assume all specs know. They are valuable and if they get caught and slaughtered, then it's GG for the player. This also has long term effects when a spec is lost as they can't be replaced giving the aliens the upper hand in the long-term.

The RO just ordering new gear from requistions is like buying a cup of tea with long term effects that benefit them.

I do like the idea of ordering in specialist gear BUT I would like to alter it to keep it fair:

Alternate suggestion:

ONLY the specialist can order them in and no one else.
Not even command.
Meaning the specialist can only order SPEC gear and no one else (not even those who have access to the ship).
The specialist MUST use their ID card to scan the supply console to be able to order it in.
The marine can choose only what they have lost meaning, they don't get to choose anything else other than the kit they dispensed (example: A spec dispenses a B18 suit and can only order more B18 suits OR helmets but not any other specialist weaponery)

The cost for all of them would be EXTREMELY high in supply points as they are, anti-tier 2-3 weaponery.

My suggestion for the supply points:

B18 armour:300

SADAR:700

Smartgunners kit:400

Sniper rifle kit:500

Grenade launcher kit:450

These are just my thoughts on it.

I do respect your opinion, and do support it if RO can SOMEHOW get that amount of points.

However, they recently nerfed RO earlier by causing Phoron sheets (the one that gives RO 200+ points per stack) to either not be accepted as points onto the shuttle, or to cause it to give the marines -200 points. Typically when I play a round nowadays (if RO isn't FUBAR), it typically can barely get the 200 points for a sentry, much less if the marines are shuttling metal, plasteel, and other supplies, which many ROs do, from what I've seen. So unless there's another way to get tons of points for marines, I'll personally hold to my regular price.

The reason that I want spec equipment to be able to be ordered is to keep the spec from being the crutch for the marines. If your platoon has to rely on one guy and they get captured, it tends to fuck up team-based balance and cooperation. (I mean, look at what happens when Command gets screwed over or is AWOL.) Beyond command, no platoon DOESN'T have a backup. Plus to me, the aliens are more than capable of dealing with such added weapons, as demonstrated from the SEVERAL Alien Majors experienced by not just me, but a couple of others as well (seriously, look at the win/loss discussion board). That's just my two cents, anyways.

It doesn't make sense to me IMO - RP or gameplay wise - for the marines to be unable to order new spec guns. Sure they're state of the art, but they're the USCM. They're the ship that's (from the wiki), "the first line of defense and top security force across all extraterrestrial settlements," as well as one of the only ones in the USCM fleet with an FTL drive, making them one of the most vital assets in the USCM. Thus, it makes sense to me that they would have access (albeit expensive access) to specialist gear if they needed it.

[Sanchez13]

Prenote I play Spec most of the time when I'm not a doc, so take that into your bias radar.

I disagree with allowing cargo to order in Spec equipment, however I do like the idea of allowing a Spec to order replacements for their kit while pricing it to a insane range so they can't spam it out for everyone.

Right now its a standard strategy to steal the Spec's weapon and acid it as a Alien, since by doing that you just shat all over their unique item and have effectively removed one of the four most powerful marines.

With Aliens if a Ravager dies another one will soon evolve into one, if a Spec's weapon is stolen its ggnore for them. But allowing living Specs to order a backup for lost equipment suddenly at least forces Aliens to try and kill/capture the Spec (and his ID Card) instead of just lol stunning and dragging/aciding his weapon.

I understand, I tend to play Spec quite a bit as well. Personally, it would serve well to ensure competitive balance by pricing it high, but not so much that it's practically impossible for the marines to get. My above points may be taken into account, as well, since if we can replace Squad Leaders in case they mess up, why not replace Specs as well? It takes a similar amount of time, if not longer due to the sheer cost of my proposed pricing for the crates. If my suggestion gets shot down, I support allowing a Spec to order replacements if they lose their gear and somehow survive.

P.S. I'm basing my pricing on the Sentry Gun, which seems to be relatively balanced enough in my experience to not only be ordered rarely due to the sheer cost of it, but being as effective as a stationary specialist smart gunner, if used right. Just my two cents, anyways.

[Arachnidnexus]

I'm a bit ambivalent about buying specialist equipment since I'd much rather have power shifted into the squad itself to mean that aliens have to chip away at a squad's strength rather than taking out a vital part of it in one hit. Also with the cargo nerfs good fucking luck getting 700 points for a new SADAR. Even spending 400 points for a single smartgun would be rather unappealing since the Smartgunner's still as vulnerable to every single stun around.

[Steelpoint]

I think the current Spec system works well, at least in theory.

If you try distributing Spec equipment to the entire squad, unless you create a unique roll to use it (A Smartgunner role for example) all your going to do is get people fighting over who get's to the equipment room first. That or you get Squad Leaders picking people they know from a OOC perspective to take the good equipment.

With a Spec you have a clearly defined person who is NOT picked by anyone in the round who get's the choice of equipment. They are also a unique roll and as such can be targeted by rules and benefits (such as their attachment privileges from cargo).

[Sanchez13]

I'm a bit ambivalent about buying specialist equipment since I'd much rather have power shifted into the squad itself to mean that aliens have to chip away at a squad's strength rather than taking out a vital part of it in one hit. Also with the cargo nerfs good fucking luck getting 700 points for a new SADAR. Even spending 400 points for a single smartgun would be rather unappealing since the Smartgunner's still as vulnerable to every single stun around.

Understandable, and I respect that. I merely wish for specialist equipment to be able to be bought in order to avoid having the aliens being capable of taking out a vital part of a squad and irrevocably cripple the marines. By allowing specialist equipment to be bought by the RO, it is meant to alleviate such an issue by making the Spec more of a similar fashion to a sentry; although it sucks if it's taken out, it doesn't permanently damage or cripple the marines, similar how the loss of a Queen doesn't necessarily mean an instant Game Over for the aliens. This is merely an attempt to decentralize the Spec role in case he/she is taken out by the aliens, or their weapons are stolen and melted. Keeps the power shifted more into the squad itself than the specialist.

Plus, my original prices were 100-150 points per crate, double of the Flamer crate and about as expensive as a Sentry. I'm willing to bump it to 200 if it would balance it more, though any more would make it WAY too expensive for the marines to conceivably purchase such a crate.

[Sanchez13]

I think the current Spec system works well, at least in theory.

If you try distributing Spec equipment to the entire squad, unless you create a unique roll to use it (A Smartgunner role for example) all your going to do is get people fighting over who get's to the equipment room first. That or you get Squad Leaders picking people they know from a OOC perspective to take the good equipment.

With a Spec you have a clearly defined person who is NOT picked by anyone in the round who get's the choice of equipment. They are also a unique roll and as such can be targeted by rules and benefits (such as their attachment privileges from cargo).

It's a system that I have no desire to change whatsoever. I'm not proposing scrapping the system we have now, this is a supplementary to it. This was merely to give the marines access to specialist equipment in case the Specialists went KIA/MIA due to the aliens. My proposal does NOT change the current Spec roll system we have now, as clarification.

[Stivan34]

GG, Spec getting SADAR and B18. +1 But if they retrieve the spec corpse, Someone gonna steal dat ID and order himself spec gear.

[Sanchez13]

GG, Spec getting SADAR and B18. +1 But if they retrieve the spec corpse, Someone gonna steal dat ID and order himself spec gear.

If they want to order spec gear, that's fine. Hope that they got the points and the RO's permission/card as well, since without those he/she ain't gettin' shit.

[Steelpoint]

Maybe tie it to the person's DNA?

This is a bit off topic but I find it weird that we still use SS13's Cargo System in a way of ships travailing to and fro the Sulaco. Considering how long it takes for Human (Predators seem much more capable) Ships to get anywhere, you would think that they would use on-board mechanisms to generate equipment?

Maybe replacing the cargo shuttle with a large 3D printer or something, in fucntion its the same but in theme it makes more sense.

Think about it, why do we have to wait twenty minutes to fuel the escape pods yet Cargo Shuttles that are twice their size can get to and from the Sulaco in two minutes flat either way? Sir! Can I take the Cargo Ship back to Earth?

[Edgelord]

The current system works fine, so unless you make spec gear ludicrously expensive, I'm gonna have to go with -1. Otherwise lategame we'll have tons of marines running around with snipers, smartguns, and (god forbid) B18.

[Sanchez13]

Maybe tie it to the person's DNA?

This is a bit off topic but I find it weird that we still use SS13's Cargo System in a way of ships travailing to and fro the Sulaco. Considering how long it takes for Human (Predators seem much more capable) Ships to get anywhere, you would think that they would use on-board mechanisms to generate equipment?

Maybe replacing the cargo shuttle with a large 3D printer or something, in fucntion its the same but in theme it makes more sense.

Think about it, why do we have to wait twenty minutes to fuel the escape pods yet Cargo Shuttles that are twice their size can get to and from the Sulaco in two minutes flat either way? Sir! Can I take the Cargo Ship back to Earth?

I understand that you may be concerned about someone stealing a Spec ID and buying tons of equipment before getting killed, but I should probably tell you a few things.

First, stealing IDs is AGAINST the rules, likely gonna get you a ban unless it's to save your life. You can file a report if someone does it without needing to protect their lives.

Secondly, it's a CRATE. It requires the RO and the points, you can't just buy it off the main RO computer. Only the RO and those above him/her (i.e. Command) can access it. It likely also costs 100-200 points meaning good luck if you can even get that amount.

Thirdly, DNA locking would COMPLETELY DEFEAT the purpose of my proposal. It's meant so that the RO can essentially order equipment meant to be similar to a more mobile version of a turret: support weapons meant to turn the tide of battles. While you may think of them as more powerful as to be OP, they're also more vulnerable due to needing someone to fire 'em, providing a competitive trade-off to balance the marines against the aliens, who are DESIGNED for offensives.

Offtopic: If you want, you can make a suggestion for a 3D printer, I don't mind. Would be cool, IMO. I will also support an increased speed of the Escape Shuttles, though that's likely gonna be shot down. I'll fully condone allowing the Sulaco to just fly away, however. Willing to trade Xeno Minor/Marine Minor for being massacred by Xenos any way.

[Sanchez13]

The current system works fine, so unless you make spec gear ludicrously expensive, I'm gonna have to go with -1. Otherwise lategame we'll have tons of marines running around with snipers, smartguns, and (god forbid) B18.

That's why it can cost as much as a turret. Not everyone can have Specialist equipment, otherwise we'd be complaining about Sentries more than grilles considering the costs. The cost can be changed, if needed. It's meant to be expensive, I just want to make sure that it's buyable. There's no way in hell that, considering the Phoron nerf, we can usually get more than 1 set at a time given the prices I've set.

[Egorkor]

instead of ordering spec kits and tying it to ID or DNA, why not make spec tokens orderable instead, and only if you lost your gear.

[Sanchez13]

instead of ordering spec kits and tying it to ID or DNA, why not make spec tokens orderable instead, and only if you lost your gear.

Ordering spec tokens is also an option. I'll keep that in mind. It's also meant for if the Specs are incapacitated, lost their gear, or are killed.

[Adjective]

-1 We limit spec gear for a reason, it is all extremely overpowerd (SADAR=Boom, Rifle=Incendiary Ammo, ect..) It's easily abusable in large numbers. Marines that demonstrate good RP have been rewarded in the past however.

If this was to be included into Cargo, each spec crate would need to cost ridiculous credits to remain balanced. IE: SADAR: 600, Scoped Rifle:400, Smart Gun:400, Grenade Launcher: 250.

[Sanchez13]

-1 We limit spec gear for a reason, it is all extremely overpowerd (SADAR=Boom, Rifle=Incendiary Ammo, ect..) It's easily abusable in large numbers. Marines that demonstrate good RP have been rewarded in the past however.

If this was to be included into Cargo, each spec crate would need to cost ridiculous credits to remain balanced. IE: SADAR: 600, Scoped Rifle:400, Smart Gun:400, Grenade Launcher: 250.

I understand that. I merely adjusted the price due to the Phoron nerf so that you couldn't get more than one spec kit or token at a time. As I have stated in my post and comments, I have done my best to balance out such a feature, especially in the light of the recent slew of Alien victories. The prices are floating however, though since RO is now unable to possess more than 200-300 credits at a time due to the Phoron nerf, it should balance it out in a similar fashion without being unbuyable. It's like buying a sentry, but more vulnerable and requiring a man to fire it.

[Fritigern]

1-/+1

No I don't think you should be able to buy extra specialist gear, but I think the gear that is lost needs to be replaced. Track the gear specialists spawn from their vendors and when it's removed from the game, give RO a special crate they can order to act as a replacement for that unique weapon. As others have said, as soon as the xenos remove that particular weapon from play (and they always know to, the meta is real and unavoidable), they know it can never be used again.

I think this feeds into the larger marine weapon imbalance that needs to be hashed out at some point. Far too much marine power is tied up on specialists and SADARs that should be more evenly distributed across all ranks rather than concentrated with 4 random, fickle players who could all be suicidal or inept.

[Sanchez13]

1-/+1

No I don't think you should be able to buy extra specialist gear, but I think the gear that is lost needs to be replaced. Track the gear specialists spawn from their vendors and when it's removed from the game, give RO a special crate they can order to act as a replacement for that unique weapon. As others have said, as soon as the xenos remove that particular weapon from play (and they always know to, the meta is real and unavoidable), they know it can never be used again.

I think this feeds into the larger marine weapon imbalance that needs to be hashed out at some point. Far too marine power is tied up on specialists and SADARs that should be more evenly distributed across all ranks rather than concentrated with 4 random, fickle players who could all be suicidal or inept.

Of course. This was merely an attempt to diffuse the power from the original specialists to the rest of the squad in case they were incapacitated. I fully support the replacement of such weapons, which is why *tokens* are also an option.

[LordLoko]

There appears to be a parabolic power curve between the marines and aliens within this game. As the aliens grow stronger with numbers and castes, the marines appear to weaken over time due to things such as supply issues and lost personnel.

That'a the whole point, aliens are like zombies: they get stronger each time the enemy pode one of them.

I could support this, but only without SADAR and a Spc ID to open the box, not even SL or CO or anything

[Sanchez13]

That'a the whole point, aliens are like zombies: they get stronger each time the enemy pode one of them.

I could support this, but only without SADAR and a Spc ID to open the box, not even SL or CO or anything

I understand and accept the aliens getting stronger, but the marines should at least give 'em a challenge late game. Marines are currently limited in offensive options despite their equipment, as demonstrated by the entire slew of Xeno Majors for the past couple of days. If they fail the first wave attack, they usually CAN'T do a second due to losing their foothold on the planet with retreating, having several wounded, losing Spec equipment and guns, etc., forcing them to eventually camp on Sulaco due to a lack of offensive options. Not only does this allow the Xenos to grow in power, the Marines are effectively weakened and forced into a stagnant defensive position as a result, leading to the many ship forts that many vilify. This is designed to give the aliens a challenge even late-game, while giving the marines a chance.

Stripping the SADAR is an option, and I can accept the need for a Spec ID to open the box, as that's who it's for.

[Wesmas]

What about allowing RO to aquire supplies which are better than standard, but not as good as spec. Slightly more acurate SMG, M41A with a slightly larger magazine, slightly stronger armor. Something which bridges the gap, but doesnt make the specalists worthless.