Xenos evolving limitations

[qDan]

Summary: stop unrealistic spam with op tier3 xenos

Benefits: aluems wont be able to gangbang everybody in two minutes simply hiding in caves long enough to evolve in crushers and ravagers after what rushing into weakly defended Nexus or directly on defenseless Sulaco, especially if marine team not fully fulfilled.

Details: Id suggest to place caps based on number of total players in xeno team or limitations on whole Hive to prevent evolve abuse and subsequent spam of strong tier3 aluems. Its totally and absolutely unrealistic to have so many tier3 (or even tier2) xenos per one Hive because the Hive itslelf is strict organization where everybody doing different narrowcasting job - runners conducting recon, hunters capturing hosts, drones build, sentinels defend, and only best of the best grants by Queen to evolve in something stronger and become kind of sergeant of Hive - into warriors cast Ravager, guardians cast Praetorian and builders cast Hivelord. Its not like everybody derping near Queen until free jelly become available and wait twenty minutes in safezone to become tier3 alien and then hurr durr rush together liek a zerg hoard. If you saw movies or played games you already know that theres no crushers+ravagers hoards everywhere Its just hunters+spitters all over the place not a huge fatass aluems spammy spam spam from nowhere.

Implementation (Optional, if you have an idea how to implement it): add new params for the hive such as total number of evolved or total number of dispensed jelly or total number of alive xenos/alive tier3 xenos. I think theres should be scheme like 3+2+1 (3 tier 1 aliens --> 2 tier 2 aliens --> 1 tier 3 alien) because carriers spam can be pretty awful as well.


For every crying xeno player who become salty after reading this post Id like to remind that all aliens already got major benifits - higher overall speed, dark vision+thermals while marines may have only up to four specs with thermal goggles, cheap and 'timeless' walls, possibility to attack marines with infinite number of facehuggers. And Im not even talking about bunch of tier3 xenos like Crushers which may easily rush in small fort use stomp and shrek everything in less then minute while party of Boilers may even not care to break in and simply burn everything and everyone from safe distance.

[Dyne]

A limit on t3s linked to, say, a general server/marine population might be a benefit.
Tentative +1 from me.

[Boltersam]

First, this suggestion is badly written in some parts. Please make it more legible.

Second, you sound like a really, really pro marine player. If you'd have played Xenos, at all, you'd know it takes a lot more than 20 minutes to get to T3, or even T2.

Third, "Weakly defended nexus" is not a thing. Ever.

Four, most xenos were slower than marines until the recent speed buff.

Five, cheap and "timeless" walls? They're paper. I'm not gonna sugarcoat it. The walls have to be literal paper with how easily they're destroyed with guns.

Six, Boilers can be killed, literally, by a single Rambo marine going after it. If you're just standing still, without a sniper aiming for the boilers launching volleys of spit (Which, by the way, is not common. At all. Boiler is underused. Let alone the fact that barricades block the gas so makes it useless against a dug in position.) What the hell is wrong with you. Go out there, kill it because of its terrible speed and glow-in-the-dark-so-it's-easier-to-hit.

Seven, you would know that the night vision is useless most of the time, because most xenos need to get in melee range to do damage, and they will be shot long before they get that close, sentinels and spitters only have one spit that needs to recharge, and in that time a squad of marines can just charge in, only one of them will get hit by the spit, and they slaughter the xeno. Thermals is rarely useful either, because even if you tell everyone "Squad in med dome!" It's useless, because it's suicide to take on a squad without a Crusher.

Eight, the Crusher's stomp was recently nerfed in range, so don't worry about that. It can't knock down all the marines, so fire at it while it slowly tries to run away (If it charged, it's stunned on the ground, so kill it.). And, by the way, they cannot "shrek everything in range". Ravagers can do that if nobody is shooting at them. Crushers have far less damage output.

I would like my points countered with a well-written and intelligent answer to them. Thank you. -Support.

[Dyne]

I would like my points countered with a well-written and intelligent answer to them. Thank you.

Main point is your points do not touch the key message.
Still, to answer them case by case.

Second, you sound like a really, really pro marine player. If you'd have played Xenos, at all, you'd know it takes a lot more than 20 minutes to get to T3, or even T2.

20 minutes in a three hour round is not that much. You can spend all this time in safety.

Third, "Weakly defended nexus" is not a thing. Ever.

No competent engineers=weakly defended Nexus. Ever.

Four, most xenos were slower than marines until the recent speed buff.

And there was a reason for it, as otherwise spitter castes can spit/throw, retreat, rinse and repeat, without any chance of marines catching up.
Even at previous speeds following a slow caste was pretty hard for marines, as the nightsight plays a big role.

Five, cheap and "timeless" walls? They're paper. I'm not gonna sugarcoat it. The walls have to be literal paper with how easily they're destroyed with guns.

Half a clip per wall on average. And a drone can throw them out in seconds, that is even if no spitter is plasma-feeding it.

Six, Boilers can be killed, literally, by a single Rambo marine going after it. If you're just standing still, without a sniper aiming for the boilers launching volleys of spit (Which, by the way, is not common. At all. Boiler is underused. Let alone the fact that barricades block the gas so makes it useless against a dug in position.) What the hell is wrong with you. Go out there, kill it because of its terrible speed and glow-in-the-dark-so-it's-easier-to-hit.

You say Boilers can be killed, the original message underlines their aciding strength. So?

Seven, you would know that the night vision is useless most of the time, because most xenos need to get in melee range to do damage...

Xenos dont need to do damadge. In most cases xenos need to hug and get out.

Eight, the Crusher's stomp was recently nerfed in range, so don't worry about that. It can't knock down all the marines, so fire at it while it slowly tries to run away...

Slowly. Ok, we might be playing different alium games.

[Jeser]

I think, we had limitations before, or am I wrong??

[Egorkor]

i ain't an expert on the prealpha aliens, but we had a thing called hivemind strength. can't exactly recall how it worked, but we can just tie the amount of aliens to the hivemind, so if it's too many crushers or carriers (cause reckon this suggestion is mainly against them bein' spammed), the hivemind strength hits a limit.

[Boltersam]

Main point is your points do not touch the key message.
Still, to answer them case by case.
20 minutes in a three hour round is not that much. You can spend all this time in safety.
No competent engineers=weakly defended Nexus. Ever.
And there was a reason for it, as otherwise spitter castes can spit/throw, retreat, rinse and repeat, without any chance of marines catching up.
Even at previous speeds following a slow caste was pretty hard for marines, as the nightsight plays a big role.
Half a clip per wall on average. And a drone can throw them out in seconds, that is even if no spitter is plasma-feeding it.
You say Boilers can be killed, the original message underlines their aciding strength. So?

Xenos dont need to do damadge. In most cases xenos need to hug and get out.
Slowly. Ok, we might be playing different alium games.

1. 20 minutes in a 3 hour round is not much, that's true. The fact is it takes much more than that.

2. Nonono, you're talking about a FORTIFIED Nexus. I'm talking about a WEAKLY DEFENDED NEXUS, which is entirely different. Marines have over 40 players on high pop, divided into squads. Usually, two of them are defending the nexus, and they usually have sentry guns, mines, or have enough people at each entrance to murder an alien that steps into the light.

3. I've found, that if a marine can get you into the light, they can consistently guess at your position for a bit after you get out of the light. Nightsight usually comes in when dodging through the jungle, but even then marines always seem to favour surrounding the alien, thus putting them in a killzone.

4. And, tell me, how many marines are in hive invasions where the walls are actually a thing, focusing fire? And, how many have a ridiculous amount of spare mags stashed anywhere they can put 'em?

5. Yes, the original message focused on their aciding strength. I stated that the acid is quite easily negated by both barricades, and not sitting on your ass and going out to chase it. The boiler needs time to get ready to fire, and to fire. There's a "charge" time for both. So, these can only be utilised when bombarding defended positions. Spray Acid is a one shot flamethrower-like ability, but that's just it. It's one shot. If you don't get your pursuers in the initial shot, you're doomed. Their acid can be strong, yes, but when used skillfully, and in appropriate situations. The bombard acid, for example, cannot be used if there are barricades, which usually there are. Or when there's a wall of grilles. Which is usually the case. The spray acid, is very much a last-ditch self defence weapon, only the initial spray is effective because it stuns marines so they're lying in the pool of acid for a good amount of time, but no damage is dealt if you move through the acid fast enough.

6. Huggers, are melee range. There are two options for this when facing more than 1 marine. Pounce, or run in as a runner, click fast enough, and hope to high hell you don't get shot 4 times. Pounce is suicide against more that one marine unless you're a hunter against two marines, since one marine alone won't fatally wound you within the pounce stun time. Charging in as a runner is much a game of skill and chance. You have to be able to get in quickly without running into obstacles, click, switch hands very quickly, click, and smash that key down hoping everyone's too shocked to hit you with 4 rifle rounds.

7. I'm talking about the moonwalk, which can't block everything. Charging out, however, bares the Crusher's flank to be shot.

As for the first, I wasn't answering the key message. I was answering the little "To salty Xeno players" at the bottom.

If you want me to answer the key message, which is a limit to the amount of T3's (ignoring the bit about T2's, because it's absolutely ridiculous. You expect most people to run around as paper mache runners? Good luck with that.) you must remember, several points. Marines spawn and are able to equip in a sixth (not going to calculate it, actually, since I can't do it accurately) of the time it takes to get to T2, and they outnumber the aliens incredibly. As well as continually receiving reinforcements from late joins. The only thing holding them back is the briefing, which is sometimes shortened to a small, quick to deploy briefing. I have played a round where I, and some others, became T3 before the marines arrived. You know why? because they took so fucking long. You have no idea, how long, we were camping the survivors there, waiting for the acid to eat through their wall of...walls.

The Ravager actually, has a relatively low healthpool. If 4 marines focus fire, from experience, it will bring a ravager down pretty quick. The Boiler, well, he's your grandpa. If he starts getting shot, he dies. Praetorian has a better survivability rate, at least. The crusher's survival rate comes from his shield in the front. Hivelord...well, tougher than the Boiler, not saying much. But I estimate the same as the Ravager's healthpool, just without the claws. The Carrier is a guerilla fighter, it relies on throwing out a hugger, then getting back in cover.

That's 3 out of 6 T3's that would have a fairly good survival rate in combat, 2 out of 6 if the Carrier has no way to retreat. T3's, aren't that overpowered. I mean, Ravagers and Carriers make pretty good hit and run. Ravager with their Charge, then run away, and the Carrier's way listed above. Hivelords are much more effective at making a defensible position than drones, though slower. Crushers are a shield. Praetorians are the Queen's guards. The Boiler is artillery, in every sense of the word. If infantry get too close, it's helpless. I rarely see effective Boilers.

[Azmodan412]

Um no. I see it is time for the weekly 'nerf duh xenoz' suggestion. Honestly, I think you are a bit salty that xenos are more competent than marines. To highlight a point made earlier, on highpop, the human to xeno ratio is 50+ to 10ish. Xenos have to use EVERY weapon in their arsenal to pull off a major victory.

-1

[forwardslashN]

Neutral.
I would probably +1 this, but xenos are getting a major rework in the next big update, so this may or may not be necessary.

[Morrinn]

-1 for reasons already addressed.

[Infernus]

There were also one more crusher and praetorian off the screen.

[Mitchs98]

+1. A T3 limit would be nice. Whoever said crushers can no longer murder a squad..a one time nerf to an OP stun isn't much of a change. At all.

[Wickedtemp]

-1

We've discussed this already in a previous thread somewhere. It was a bad idea then and it's a bad idea now. If you want to limit the number of T3's, then go kill the T1's and T2's.

[OatzAndHoes]

+1

Third, "Weakly defended nexus" is not a thing. Ever.

Have you played the new update? Marines can't set up egrills anymore. Nexus is a LOT harder to defend now.

[Boltersam]

+1 Have you played the new update? Marines can't set up egrills anymore. Nexus is a LOT harder to defend now.

So because you lost your favourite toy you suddenly can't do crap.

No. There is always a large chunk of, if not all of, the marine population in the Nexus. That discourages any but the most serious of nexus assaults. I did not say a FORTIFIED Nexus, I said DEFENDED. As I've said earlier.

Just because you don't have egrilles (which makes me very happy, they're horrible.) doesn't mean you can't set up a wall of barricades, sentry guns, mines, and guards. But, that's fortifying.

Defending, is almost all of the 50+ marines. Weakly defended nexus, is not a thing. Not with that many marines in it.

[OatzAndHoes]

So because you lost your favourite toy you suddenly can't do crap.

No. There is always a large chunk of, if not all of, the marine population in the Nexus. That discourages any but the most serious of nexus assaults. I did not say a FORTIFIED Nexus, I said DEFENDED. As I've said earlier.

Just because you don't have egrilles (which makes me very happy, they're horrible.) doesn't mean you can't set up a wall of barricades, sentry guns, mines, and guards. But, that's fortifying.

Defending, is almost all of the 50+ marines. Weakly defended nexus, is not a thing. Not with that many marines in it.

Literally all those defenses can now be circumvented by a single charger. All he has to do is charge right through the layers of tables and hit a turret, then moonwalk away and repeat until there are no turrets left. Then the rest of the hive can swarm in and hugslash all the marines who have not already retreated to the sully. Also for everyone citing "realism" and "lore" as a reason to get rid of shooting through grilles"(ignoring the fact that embryos can hatch in marines in minutes, not hours or days, that giant dinosaur sized aliens can run into a room and slash everyones right foot off with surgical accuracy, huggers can be pulled off faces without the people dying, and the numerous other changes we've made to favour gameplay>lore/realism) how would you feel about the addition of an electric fence instead of electric grilles? Something that serves the exact same purpose as egrilles but has a difference name and sprite? Since this solves your realism complaints I'm sure you will all be more than happy with that addition?

[Joe4444]

didn't we have something like this on the sualco? something to do with the queens physic strength? stopping xenos from evolving unless a certain criteria was met or something like that.I think it had something to do with defences? anyway that seemed to work fine.im still gonna stay neutral with this

[DesFrSpace]

-1, NEGATIVE<.
Back in in early LV 624, I remember correctly, this was the limit and the hive strength.
Every time the Queen die, the hive mind would be greatly weakened, and that would go badly against a growing incoming of new Marines.

It not a bad idea, but this would actually become a nerf, and still is a limiter.

[Boltersam]

Literally all those defenses can now be circumvented by a single charger. All he has to do is charge right through the layers of tables and hit a turret, then moonwalk away and repeat until there are no turrets left. Then the rest of the hive can swarm in and hugslash all the marines who have not already retreated to the sully. Also for everyone citing "realism" and "lore" as a reason to get rid of shooting through grilles"(ignoring the fact that embryos can hatch in marines in minutes, not hours or days, that giant dinosaur sized aliens can run into a room and slash everyones right foot off with surgical accuracy, huggers can be pulled off faces without the people dying, and the numerous other changes we've made to favour gameplay>lore/realism) how would you feel about the addition of an electric fence instead of electric grilles? Something that serves the exact same purpose as egrilles but has a difference name and sprite? Since this solves your realism complaints I'm sure you will all be more than happy with that addition?

As I said, I do not mean a fortified Nexus. I mean a defended one. You do not need fortifications to defend a place. You need soldiers, which marines have more than they need with the 50+ pop on their side, with continually arriving reinforcements in the form of late joiners. Also, you said tables. I said barricades.

I believe you're posting in the wrong forum. Post this in the Egrilles forum, is what I suggest.

[Page Avenue]

So because you lost your favourite toy you suddenly can't do crap.

No. There is always a large chunk of, if not all of, the marine population in the Nexus. That discourages any but the most serious of nexus assaults. I did not say a FORTIFIED Nexus, I said DEFENDED. As I've said earlier.

Just because you don't have egrilles (which makes me very happy, they're horrible.) doesn't mean you can't set up a wall of barricades, sentry guns, mines, and guards. But, that's fortifying.

Defending, is almost all of the 50+ marines. Weakly defended nexus, is not a thing. Not with that many marines in it.

You seem to be under the impression that 50+ marines actually means 50+ marines. Probably closer to ~20 active marines, and that's being generous.

[Boltersam]

You seem to be under the impression that 50+ marines actually means 50+ marines. Probably closer to ~20 active marines, and that's being generous.

Hahahhahahahahahahah, yeah no. I've personally scouted the Nexus on several rounds and tried to make a count of the marines in the Nexus. The number's usually around thirty, not counting squads outside of the Nexus.

[Page Avenue]

Hahahhahahahahahahah, yeah no. I've personally scouted the Nexus on several rounds and tried to make a count of the marines in the Nexus. The number's usually around thirty, not counting squads outside of the Nexus.

That leaves room for what? 4 specialists, 4 squad leaders and some medics? This also isn't counting the ones who will die shortly or are already captured.

1 minute later, the number's already dropped to 19.

[Boltersam]

That leaves room for what? 4 specialists, 4 squad leaders and some medics? This also isn't counting the ones who will die shortly or are already captured.

1 minute later, the number's already dropped to 19.

Is this the start of the round, or near the end?

[Gentlemanly_headcrab]

Edit: Changed from -1 to a Meh.

If you can get 6+ ravagers or crushers you're doing something right. With the new addition of AP rounds the stronger slower classes become easier targets now. A good Sadar carrying spec can be hell for Ravagers and Crushers already and it just seems a bit meh to limit it. Usually, I'll see three T3's of varying types of the hunting class and those rounds where there are 6-7 are rare.

Edit: Not so rare.

[MrJJJ]

-1

If you can get 6+ ravagers or crushers you're doing something right. With the new addition of AP rounds the stronger slower classes become easier targets now.

By doing something right, you mean just sitting in hive and waiting untill you at least hunter, then fight or keep hidding and then evolve into ravager or crusher?
Also AP rounds don't seem to be much different from normal rounds, they seem to take down ravagers just as much as normal for some reason, the only thing i saw is that AP ones don't get deflected