State of the Game

[Surrealistik]

This is meant to be an earnest and constructive critique of the game as it stands, not an attack on the server or the hard work put into it. I love CM, I have fun on it and I want it to be better, which is why I'm making this post.

In a nutshell CM is basically a defense centric campfest.

Why?

Mainly because both the Aliens and Marines have massive advantages on defense: layers of barricades, sentries and mines in the case of the marines. Layers of eggs, sticky resin, walls and doors that destroy firing lines and channel marines into narrow columns in the case of the aliens.

But it's more complicated and nuanced than that. In particular marines are forced on the defensive because:

Beyond the early game, Hives are developed to the point of being unassailable deathtraps that slow marines to a crawl, obstruct firing lines, choke and restrict marine progression to narrow columns, and menace them with facehuggers, all while forcing them to deal with flanking T3s that rapidly regenerate health, and setting them up for a Queen scream. Clearing such a developed hive takes forever (and even longer than that with a devoted Hivelord rebuilding), even with orbitals ready (and it gets MUCH worse if you can't use orbitals because the hive is in cave town), and doing so means being under attack the entire time. Meanwhile, Marines do _not_ have the endurance to commit to a sustained siege/assault because unlike the Aliens, they are likely to receive debilitating injuries that can only be fixed by surgery, or that are otherwise time and resource intensive to fix in a best case scenario. They GOTTAGOFAST, and with an overdeveloped hive they can't. So what are the marines to do? Camp naturally, then hope the aliens fuck up (and that the marines don't), even with massed T3s, so they can counterattack and finish them off.

Compare and contrast this to Aliens who can commit to a sustained siege easily because they do not receive debilitating injuries, and they can recover health rapidly in easily spammed weeds (and recovery is now even easier/faster with Praetorian pheromones).

So, if anyone was wondering why the Marines always turtle up, look no further than this post: it has just been explained in exacting detail.

To fix this, Marines will need several things:

#1: A practical and sustainable way to clear out Alien defenses efficiently.
#2: A practical and sustainable way to engage in a protracted siege.
#3: The solutions to #2 and #3: should complement Marine offensive capabilities far more than defensive capabilities.
#4: Information so the marines know when to push rather than camp indefinitely.

#2 will probably require something that either prevents crippling injuries or treats them in the field to the point where a marine can still be battle worthy; a deployable autodoc perhaps.

I have ideas for the rest, and I encourage others to submit their own ideas:

Gun Emplacements for offense: http://cm-ss13.com/viewtopic.p ... 741#p75741

Buffed welder damage vs Structures for clearing hive defenses: http://cm-ss13.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=7294

Surface Scan Overwatch (so Marines know when they should strike/attack): http://cm-ss13.com/viewtopic.p ... 611#p75611

[Durper]

So buff marines a lot?

I've attacked hives before, most of the times marines just ignore Resin structures and weeds for some reason and just get stuck in a place more advantageous to Xeno's.

I learned that slowly clearing out all the weeds and resin and making an advance together is more safer and effective so this is an easy fix for this.

Defending against Xeno's isn't suppose to be easy, and it's not that hard now if you use the existing equipment's right and the marines work together.

[Surrealistik]

Defense isn't the problem, offense is.

And as stated in the OP, you rarely can afford to methodically dismantle a developed hive because it takes insanely long and you're under pressure, accumulating injuries which often debilitate and discount a marine from further action; you are racing against a clock of getting disabled and unless you're rushing early or counterattacking, you just don't have the time, because there are too many aliens and the pressure is therefore too intense.

[Durper]

Defense isn't the problem, offense is.

And as stated in the OP, you rarely can afford to methodically dismantle a hive because you're under pressure, and accumulating injuries which often debilitate and discount a marine from further action; you are racing against a clock of getting disabled and unless you're rushing early or counterattacking, you just don't have the time, because there are too many aliens and the pressure is therefore too intense.

To be honest not really, 1 click can remove weeds (or just use flame weapons), gunfire can take down resin blocks pretty fast, choke points at the caves can be removed by just mining the rocks opening a bigger path, so yeah I don't think taking down Xeno defences is hard, Marines just need better coordination and team work

[MrJJJ]

To be honest not really, 1 click can remove weeds (or just use flame weapons), gunfire can take down resin blocks pretty fast, choke points at the caves can be removed by just mining the rocks opening a bigger path, so yeah I don't think taking down Xeno defences is hard, Marines just need better coordination and team work

Try building a egg field, and when marines mine, come out with a queen and screech, watch how you just turned a enemy assault into a pathetic dance party

[Surrealistik]

To be honest not really, 1 click can remove weeds (or just use flame weapons), gunfire can take down resin blocks pretty fast, choke points at the caves can be removed by just mining the rocks opening a bigger path, so yeah I don't think taking down Xeno defences is hard, Marines just need better coordination and team work

Now try doing that vs a full strength hive when the Queen is Dean Screaming and you're getting spit spammed by Praetorians/Boilers on their turf, as Ravagers hit and run, nevermind FF which _will_ happen. Odds are you're going to get crippled well before you see victory. Attrition is very much the aliens' friend, and time is completely on their side.

[Sarah_U.]

Turret, 3 plasteel barricade, 2 miner, 3 gunners.
Seen a whole hive die.

[Surrealistik]

If that worked without counterattacking after significant alien losses during a failed attack on the FOB/Sulaco, I'd be stunned; it sounds like a recipe for getting Tableforted and whittled to death.

[doodeeda]

If marines wanted to win more, they're going to have to get more smart. Marines are more effective when they work together, so how could they be smart in maintaining organization and cooperation? The presence of an overall ground commander/tactician will lead to more marine victories. This ground commander would be able to see the battlefield more clearly, and all squad leaders would report to him. The ground commander will be able to pull off things you can only dream of seeing currently on the planet. Coordinating full-out assaults by assembling the entire army, designating where defenses need to be made, giving squad leaders salient objectives, and new innovative things can all be effectively done by such a person. Logistics on the planet is hellish to handle, but if supplies can be quickly sent to the frontlines and wounded sent back to the ships, marines will have a better chance. Do you think the creation of a secure route straight to the front lines can be done with how things currently go in rounds? I've never seen such a thing; something like a 3 tile wide barricaded pathway leading a fresh marine to the fight is what I imagine. Marines have to get smart, and someone taking the initiative to handle things on the ground is one way.

[Durper]

There are times to attack and when to not attack, if marines are being overwhelmed and sustaining too much casualties they would retreat and defend, nothing wrong with that happens all the time.

Xeno's win attrition battles because they don't need supplies just weeds and plasma, and Marines never try and secure a proper supply line when they're attacking so they run out of helmets and ammo real quick.

Marines don't need a big buff they just need to git gud.

Nest cuffing is BS though

[Surrealistik]

There are times to attack and when to not attack, if marines are being overwhelmed and sustaining too much casualties they would retreat and defend, nothing wrong with that happens all the time.

Xeno's win attrition battles because they don't need supplies just weeds and plasma, and Marines never try and secure a proper supply line when they're attacking so they run out of helmets and ammo real quick.

Marines don't need a big buff they just need to git gud.

So is it a coincidence that the vast majority of marine wins comes down to counterattacking the aliens after they epic fail during an attack?

The issue is not that marines don't win, it's that they largely cannot win (outside of the occasional perfectly coordinated GOTTAGOFAST rush) without turtling up first for all the reasons I've mentioned. Apop and many others often complain about Marines being passive and defensive; if he wants to fix that, he needs to give Marines the tools they need to be aggressive even vs a full strength hive, or the marines will continue to bunker up if they're actually interested in winning.

[Durper]

So is it a coincidence that the vast majority of marine wins comes down to counterattacking the aliens after they epic fail during an attack?

The issue is not that marines don't win, it's that they largely cannot win (outside of the occasional perfectly coordinated GOTTAGOFAST rush) without turtling up first for all the reasons I've mentioned. Apop and many others often complain about Marines being passive and defensive; if he wants to fix that, he needs to give Marines the tools they need to be aggressive even vs a full strength hive, or the marines will continue to bunker up if they're actually interested in winning.

I've been in rounds where Marines won fair and square before, so marines can win with the stuff we already have. it's just marines are mostly bad all the time.

And fighting unknown Xeno's is suppose to be very hard since we're not fully equip to deal that sort of threat so marines are suppose to loose most of time.

[Sarah_U.]

I seriously tried to respond to the post multiple time, but just got to the conclusion of saying: Observe a few matches and find marine flaws. Game is balanced, players aren't. You'd see aliens have it rougher than marines if marines would actually play it how they should and better use their tools.

[Surrealistik]

I've been in rounds where Marines won fair and square before, so marines can win with the stuff we already have. it's just marines are mostly bad all the time.

And fighting unknown Xeno's is suppose to be very hard since we're not fully equip to deal that sort of threat so marines are suppose to loose most of time.

How often have marines won by invading a full strength hive? I would surmise that this constitutes a _very_ low percentage of marine victories.

Further, if it is the intent of the developers that the Marines be at an explicit disadvantage (though again, I'm not claiming that the Win/Loss of Marines is a problem, merely that they cannot reliably win by taking the initiative offensively), fair enough, but if that's the case, they should say so.

I seriously tried to respond to the post multiple time, but just got to the conclusion of saying: Observe a few matches and find marine flaws. Game is balanced, players aren't. You'd see aliens have it rougher than marines if marines would actually play it how they should and better use their tools.

I've played since before the Alpha (during the ancient times of the space station), observed many games, and the conclusion overall is what I've posted in the OP; Marines are at far too great a disadvantage if they go on the offense without counterattacking, and almost always lose in the process.

[Durper]

How often have marines won by invading a full strength hive? I would surmise that this constitutes a _very_ low percentage of marine victories.

Further, if it is the intent of the developers that the Marines be at an explicit disadvantage (though again, I'm not claiming that the Win/Loss of Marines is a problem, merely that they cannot reliably win by taking the initiative offensively), fair enough, but if that's the case, they should say so.

It's not their intent but it would make sense IC wise because Colonial Marines are equipped to deal with human based forces not Xenomorphs, so marines would usually loose in that kind of scenario.

[Sarah_U.]

Maybe the fact acid is all-over doesn't help. Marine's defenses are being melted way too much due to the acid-spit update.
But otherwise I'll keep my possition from observing too many games. Tweaking the melting/bombardment of things would help possibly.

[Surrealistik]

Again, I don't think defense is the issue. The acid update seems like a misguided attempt to force marines into taking the initiative offensively, which they will then fail at because they lack the tools to spearhead offense without the aliens first suffering meaningful casualties.

[Durper]

Again, I don't think defense is the issue. The acid update seems like a misguided attempt to force marines into taking the initiative offensively, which they will then fail at because they lack the tools to spearhead offense without the aliens first suffering meaningful casualties.

So you just want the marines to attack more and win? with the help of better gadgets for the marines?

[SpanishBirdman]

I absolutely agree with you. It seems like the dev solution to marine turtling is to give xenos better tools for breaking defences, or remove marine defensive tools. Yes, marines need to git gud. But they won't. Saying that as a solution is elitist and counterproductive. If you want marines to attack more they need tools more effective at offence than defense, and ones that encourage attack. Those tools do not currently exist (except the under-barrel grenade launcher), and without them turtling will ALWAYS be a problem, even moreso when the proposed solution is buffing the other side. Improving marine attack power will also require a xeno buff, as they are underpowered in the current meta, but those buffs should not lead to better defenses.

[KingKire]

I've been trying harder and harder to make the set FOB gain a stronger presence on the ground. I went from sitting "guarding" the engine room to trying to actively help command with camera networks and sometimes setting up autolathes and camera console monitors but i dont think those help too much. I've been thinking of the idea of trying to help set up a stronger medical area on the FOB so doctors can perform needed surgeries on the ground instead of waiting for the long turn around in the Sulaco. That would probably really help boost marine confidence since they would have a higher chance of returning to the field of battle if they were only injured or if they can get the body recovered.
A lot of things i think contribute to marines holding the FOB and reinforcing it until the coming assault:

-Lack of officers: Its rare to see a full cadre of 5 officers on the bridge to help organize an offense of 30+ish troops, and coordinate 4 squads in any decent way other than mass charges and mass defenses, you need at least 3 officers fully overlooking the squads. Toss in some SSD for officers, or maybe having the commanding officer just leave the bridge for several minutes at the time and you tend to be left with one or two officers in charge of 4 separate squads. I have had trouble playing command and conquer, starcraft, warhammer... now your asking 2 people to coordinate the efforts of 25+ souls who each have vastly different experiences of tactics and knowledge?

-Lack of orders: Due to command usually being overwhelmed and under staffed, we tend to have squads that sit with their base objectives for the entire deployment. Alpha squad scouts, bravo squad repair tellcomms, charlie reinforce the nexus, delta reinforce the nexus. Once the base orders are issued, it doesn't change, leaving squads sitting around trying to figure out what they need to do...and soldiers who sit around will just try to fortify where they are in the mean time.

-Lack of multi-squad coordination: Many times, squad leaders will just flat out ignore the other squads deployed with them. I don't know if its due to each squad being given very broad or very narrow objectives but i rarely hear over comms chatter " hey this is alpha squad, can charlie squad push in with us and cover our flank?". This leaves each squad just interacting with command, overloading command who now has to micromanage each squads orders.

All these problems means that squads are essentially reduced to individual competence. I dont know, my two cents on the matter.
Having some better ways to help vet or increase the knowledge of those fighting would help, some basic leadership lessons for commanders and squad leaders instead of everyone group up also would be great. I would love to see firebases become a bigger thing so marines didnt have to fall back to the FOB everytime a fight didnt exactly pan out, preventing these all-or-nothing assults that pop up.

[Sargeantmuffinman]

For any offensive action taken by the marines for assulting,they need to take down ALL enemy fortifications like WEEDS and SITICKY RESIN.

WEEDS are the HEALING PADS for xenos and without them,they're fucked.

Sticky resin slows you down,which slows the assault down. You're sitting ducks if you don't take them out.

EGGS,SHOOT THEM UNTIL THEY'RE OPEN AND DEAD.

Walls are to be taken down by the bayonets some have guns have and in tight spaces,MAKE room.

The aliens have the advantage in CQC so tight spaces are THEIR friend so MAKE SOME ROOM.

Also flanking is.

Flank them so that their manpower is stretched too thin since everyone knows what happened to hitler when he had two main fronts to fight on!

[Egorkor]

the day I'll see marines surrounding a dome where aliens are holed up instead of rushing through the only opened and most fortified by xenos window, losing men to that and then just see xenos running off through the other door and escape is the day marines will truly become competent.

[Nubs]

I've seen quite a few assaults succeed lately, often with only 20 odd marines attacking smart, having 60+ remaining victories against a strong hive.

Only yesterday a crack team of 7 marines bust into the alien nest through a secret entrance and killed 5 xeno defenders + all their larvae, so playing smart wins.

Weed chat: maybe walking over weeds should erode them gradually? 30+ marines tramping over the weeds should degrade them significantly.

[Surrealistik]

For any offensive action taken by the marines for assulting,they need to take down ALL enemy fortifications like WEEDS and SITICKY RESIN...

...Flank them so that their manpower is stretched too thin since everyone knows what happened to hitler when he had two main fronts to fight on!

I don't think my point is being understood.

I acknowledge that dismantling the hive is important, however as repeatedly said, this doesn't incur in a vacuum: during this demolition process you are under pressure by the aliens, while facing down dwindling ammo and supplies, and mounting injuries, including those that will take you out of the fight. Destroying a developed hive's defenses takes a _lot_ of time and ammo (which increases dramatically if they have a Hivelord rebuilding), during which you are eating spit, Queen screams and hit and run. The fundamental problem is that marines simply do not have the tools to deal with a full strength hive in a timely manner, _before_ the injuries mount to the point where retreat is obligated, and losses in excess of the damage dealt to the xenos, are incurred.


@ Nubs: 7 vs 5 isn't exactly a good representation, especially if the Xeno castes were lower or non-combat tiers. Further, assaults made as a counterattack can definitely succeed, but the problem is they as a rule must be counterattacks outside of rush tactics.

[Durper]

I don't think my point is being understood.

I acknowledge that dismantling the hive is important, however as repeatedly said, this doesn't incur in a vacuum: during this demolition process you are under pressure by the aliens, while facing down dwindling ammo and supplies, and mounting injuries, including those that will take you out of the fight. Destroying a developed hive's defenses takes a _lot_ of time and ammo (which increases dramatically if they have a Hivelord rebuilding), during which you are eating spit, Queen screams and hit and run. The fundamental problem is that marines simply do not have the tools to deal with a full strength hive in a timely manner, _before_ the injuries mount to the point where retreat is obligated, and losses in excess of the damage dealt to the xenos, are incurred.


@ Nubs: 7 vs 5 isn't exactly a good representation, especially if the Xeno castes were lower or non-combat tiers. Further, assaults made as a counterattack can definitely succeed, but the problem is they as a rule must be counterattacks outside of rush tactics.

That's the entire point of the scenario, Marines vs Xeno on first contact which means marines are not fully prepared to deal with the threat but understand they still need to do it.

and the fact that dismantling deference is hard makes sense because you're suppose to use tactics, like one section dismantles the resin and weeds while another section tries to cover them or just completely go in a different direction to make a better path of attack, they already have enough tools to deal with resin and weeds.

Taking casualties and loosing supplies is pretty normal, Marines are trying to attack hostile forces on their home turf so of course they'd take a lot of heat. if they loose they retreat and defend.

Each Xeno has some sort of ability to kill of lot's of marines that's normal usually tier 3's can kill about 5 or more players, you just need to learn to deal with them, and if they beat you, they beat you.

Maybe in feature maps Marines would be 100% fully equip to deal with Xeno threat but Colony is a first contact scenario.