Command Staff procedures for Riots / Mutiny / Desertion / Crime / SHTF / FUBAR in absense of MPs.

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Ms.Degrasse
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Command Staff procedures for Riots / Mutiny / Desertion / Crime / SHTF / FUBAR in absense of MPs.

Post by Ms.Degrasse » 24 Jun 2016, 14:28

Here is a topic I feel that should be brought to debate and staff's attention.
A staff report wouldn't be adequated, because the focus are the RULES, instead of a person's actions.
(He did nothing wrong and acted 100% in the protocol.)

First I will relate the events that happened on the round. (I might miss a detail or even the exact order, but I will try my best at being faithful.)
► Show Spoiler
But putting my case elements aside? - Let's get into the many QUESTIONS needing answers. (Including the one about involving marines.) ;)

"YOU ARE THE HIGHEST RANKING COMMAND STAFF ABOARD THE SULACO.
THERE ARE NO MPS AVAILABLE - OR THEY ARE VISIBLY OUTNUMBERED - OR EVEN EVEN ALREADY DOWNED.
AND THERE IS A RIOT, MUTINY, INFIGHT, MASSIVE DESERTION, MURDER (DONE BY THE LIAISON OR OTHERS) OR SIMILAR DANGEROUS AND UNLAWFUL SITUATION ABOARD, WHERE IT DOESN'T INVOLVE IRON BEARS, DEATH SQUAD, XENOMORPHS OR PREDATORS - ONLY THE SULACO'S CREW, LIAISON AND/OR ON THE MAXIMUM THE SURVIVORS.

----> WHAT IS OK OR NOT TO DO?"

1 - Can you grab non-lethal weapons for your protection? And - by extension - handcuffs and similar things?
Or this is, actually, against that rule stating that "You shouldn't do the MP's work"?

2 - Can you equip armour and get primary weapons, for effectivelly defending yourself (where visibly the danger involves others also having primary weapons and armour)?
Or this is in fact against the rule stating that "You must not equip armour and primary weapons before hostile boarding if you aren't a marine or aren't going to the planet"?

3 - Can you address the situation directly, for the sake of having a conversation for defusing it, but possibly having to resort to lethal force after the negotiation fails?
Or this is against the rule about escalation, so if you are command staff facing a mutiny or riot, you must first wait for melee attacks (or start them yourself) before resorting to firearms?

4 - It's OK - as command staff - to arrest this type of hostiles by helding them at gunpoint? Or by extension by using non-lethal weaponry and handcuffs? And them to do the whole brigging or executing proccess?
Or this is, also against that rule stating that "You shouldn't do the MP's work"?

5 - Can you dispatch some of the marines for dealing with the situation?
Or that also falls under the "You shouldn't do the MP's work" (and also would stale the round in favour of the xenomorphs)?

6 - Can you assemble a MILITIA, by arming the loyal MTs, resarcher, CE, Doctors, CMO or even survivors with sidearms and enlisting their aid? Or - at least - doing this for their own protection?
Or this is something you must never do?

7 - Can you issue non-lethal weaponry and handcuffs to the marines, to a militia, to the bridge officers or similar group?
Or this is actually a "NEVER" for having similarity with the MP's role?

8 - Can you lock yourself on the bridge, drop the shutters on the entire Sulaco and mash that "call the ERT" Button in a desperate attempt to regain control?
Or this is a "DON'T", because it would fall under the "Don't be a jerk" rule and stale the round?

9 - It would be OK to run away to the planet, hide in a a locker, cryo yourself or even kill yourself?
Or that is something against the "fill your command role / don't abandon it / don't kill yourself early in the round" or "don't be a jerk" rules?


P.S.:

I want the player's insights, and also the STAFF MEMBERS answers to the nine questions.
From this an important guideline for better rounds with interesting and rule-friendly roleplay will emerge.
Not just on my part, but also on the part of all the other players reading this topic. ;)

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Re: Command Staff procedures for Riots / Mutiny / Desertion / Crime / SHTF / FUBAR in absense of MPs.

Post by Joe4444 » 24 Jun 2016, 14:44

These are all valid points and I agree with all of except I'm a bit iffy on the dispatch some of the marines for dealing with the situation. What do you mean by that? brig them or kill them?

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Re: Command Staff procedures for Riots / Mutiny / Desertion / Crime / SHTF / FUBAR in absense of MPs.

Post by Sargeantmuffinman » 24 Jun 2016, 14:53

1-8 = I don't know.

9. This is my opinion on the matter.

It is not okay since the marines need to know what's happening with command as they do depend on it or hide in a locker to go SSD and it's illegal against server rules to commit suicide without good reason.

Cyroing yourself is okay under certain circumstances, long as you can Ahelp that you're doing it before you do. But early round is dickish, IF you have no one controlling the bridge.
George S.Patton once said:No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making some other poor dumb bastard die for his country.

I don't like cute things.

Good hunting.

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Re: Command Staff procedures for Riots / Mutiny / Desertion / Crime / SHTF / FUBAR in absense of MPs.

Post by Ms.Degrasse » 24 Jun 2016, 15:16

P.S.2:

Another of my cases, where I was in doubt about "Is it actually OK or not to do?", related to the matter.
(Read this if you want more examples.):
► Show Spoiler

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Re: Command Staff procedures for Riots / Mutiny / Desertion / Crime / SHTF / FUBAR in absense of MPs.

Post by Ms.Degrasse » 24 Jun 2016, 15:33

Joe4444 wrote:These are all valid points and I agree with all of except I'm a bit iffy on the dispatch some of the marines for dealing with the situation. What do you mean by that? brig them or kill them?
"Brig" them actually.

By either "detaining" (marines with standard weapons stopping the hostile's actions and helding the culprits at gunpoint, with possible lethal force use on proper escalation, but not summary execution orders as those are against the rules in all almost all possibilities)...
...or "arresting" them (having the marines equipped with non-lethal weaponry, handcuffs and the like - the thing I addressed in another question, about it also falling into "doing the MP's role").

The "Kill them" thing (summary execution - ordering the marines to kill someone) would really be a hard thing to happen with good in-context reasons and also inside the rules.
I think it would be only reasonable in the possibility of a prisoner, already condemned to death sentence, escaping the brig and leading a riot. Also in the case of hostile colonists who already downed many marines - and were the command could pinpoint them as terrorist (and even suspect they caused the xenomorph incident).
Because even "a Corporate Liaison who killed the survivors and managed to murder the commander when questioned about it", you would be required to get the USCM permission to execute and try first to proccess normally (would need to try to brig him first).

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Re: Command Staff procedures for Riots / Mutiny / Desertion / Crime / SHTF / FUBAR in absense of MPs.

Post by Joe4444 » 24 Jun 2016, 15:57

Ms.Degrasse wrote: "Brig" them actually.

By either "detaining" (marines with standard weapons stopping the hostile's actions and helding the culprits at gunpoint, with possible lethal force use on proper escalation, but not summary execution orders as those are against the rules in all almost all possibilities)...
...or "arresting" them (having the marines equipped with non-lethal weaponry, handcuffs and the like - the thing I addressed in another question, about it also falling into "doing the MP's role").

The "Kill them" thing (summary execution - ordering the marines to kill someone) would really be a hard thing to happen with good in-context reasons and also inside the rules.
I think it would be only reasonable in the possibility of a prisoner, already condemned to death sentence, escaping the brig and leading a riot. Also in the case of hostile colonists who already downed many marines - and were the command could pinpoint them as terrorist (and even suspect they caused the xenomorph incident).
Because even "a Corporate Liaison who killed the survivors and managed to murder the commander when questioned about it", you would be required to get the USCM permission to execute and try first to proccess normally (would need to try to brig him first).
thanks for clearing it up.I now agree with them all

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Re: Command Staff procedures for Riots / Mutiny / Desertion / Crime / SHTF / FUBAR in absense of MPs.

Post by Ms.Degrasse » 24 Jun 2016, 16:00

Sargeantmuffinman wrote:... But early round is dickish, IF you have no one controlling the bridge.
This is also my feeling about it, Seargent.

Any action from command staff, that can ruin the round for the human players, is terrible to all players.

The damage must be lessened always when an infight happens.

But here, context and detailsare of summary importance.

"Commander, alone on the bridge and facing a mutiny on part of almost all the entire crew, decided to lockdown the bridge and kill himself inside his quarters."

-> Worse case possible, because people will need to have C4 and to hack some doors for finally gaining controls of the bridge. Will stale the round horribly.

"Commander goes out of the bridge, announce to the mutinneers he's resigning, and kill himself by the corridor."

-> Not that bad when we have mutineers with good intentions.

But, for example, on the case of a terrible RO rioting against the command staff after insisting on denying important resources for no good reason, wasting points on silly stuff instead of mines, turrets, plasteel and/or good weapons or similar things?

-> Doing nothing is terrible, as the lack of some resources also stall the round in favour of the xenomorphs.

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Re: Command Staff procedures for Riots / Mutiny / Desertion / Crime / SHTF / FUBAR in absense of MPs.

Post by GreyHound501 » 24 Jun 2016, 16:17

Never kill the CL for any reason it is not worth the legal headache to the head afterwards
IT IS I CO GREY Vil

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Re: Command Staff procedures for Riots / Mutiny / Desertion / Crime / SHTF / FUBAR in absense of MPs.

Post by Warnipple » 24 Jun 2016, 20:16

GreyHound501 wrote:Never kill the CL for any reason it is not worth the legal headache to the head afterwards
Hahahaha, I agree with this.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=739&start=1250#p80733
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Re: Command Staff procedures for Riots / Mutiny / Desertion / Crime / SHTF / FUBAR in absense of MPs.

Post by CapREDSPEAR » 25 Jun 2016, 04:42

GreyHound501 wrote:Never kill the CL for any reason it is not worth the legal headache to the head afterwards

M.O.T.H.E.R

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Re: Command Staff procedures for Riots / Mutiny / Desertion / Crime / SHTF / FUBAR in absense of MPs.

Post by apophis775 » 25 Jun 2016, 16:24

Hmmm... maybe I'll write an SOP for command.

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Re: Command Staff procedures for Riots / Mutiny / Desertion / Crime / SHTF / FUBAR in absense of MPs.

Post by Ms.Degrasse » 29 Jun 2016, 07:43

apophis775 wrote:Hmmm... maybe I'll write an SOP for command.
It would be really helpful, Apophis.

In some situations I mentioned on the questionaire, it's really difficult to figure out "what can the character do without breaking a rule". And those are recurring most of the times.
Something related to this theme even happened in a round some time ago.

I was playing as Sadako - in marine role - and we stumbled upon a survivor who wasn't a marshal, but who decided to try to arrest a marine for stealing things from the colony.

He fired a taser, tried to bash a marine with a stun baton, had MAR a rifle (he didn't fired it) and after a struggle some marines tried to hold him at gunpoint.

My character aimed her rifle at him too.

But instead of giving up, he clicked on something and got shot twice instantly.

The situation got ahelped, and the moderator interacting with me was even confused about the logs, and trying to figure out the situation. - And I am sure he was confused about the rules too...

Was the survivor a "jerk", rule-wise? Of course!
- But someone really distressed by the situation, and acting weird in this traumatic circunstance, is something acceptable.
Survivors CAN be hostile sometimes after all. Trying to arrest a marine is a type of hostile action, not that different from a survivor shooting at the marines on the sight (only a lot more interesting roleplay-wise).

The marines did something wrong by trying to hold him at gunpoint, for detaining him?
- Rule-wise, yes, it would be "improper escalation". He didn't used lethal force, and the result of trying to hold him at gunpoint turned into lethal force being used.
But what else the marines could do? Let the suspicious civillian stun the entire squad and arrest a marine? ("Suspicious" because he could be even the culprit behind the massacre, as we witnessed only "blood everywhere", but we had no contact with the xenos yet at that point.)

...Putting the fact that it involved marines, and not command staff, apart? The questions number 3 (intervention on a riot) and 4 (holding someone at gunpoint / arresting someone) on my post are about this exact theme. ;)

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Re: Command Staff procedures for Riots / Mutiny / Desertion / Crime / SHTF / FUBAR in absense of MPs.

Post by Feweh » 29 Jun 2016, 12:59

Ms.Degrasse wrote: It would be really helpful, Apophis.

In some situations I mentioned on the questionaire, it's really difficult to figure out "what can the character do without breaking a rule". And those are recurring most of the times.
Something related to this theme even happened in a round some time ago.

I was playing as Sadako - in marine role - and we stumbled upon a survivor who wasn't a marshal, but who decided to try to arrest a marine for stealing things from the colony.

He fired a taser, tried to bash a marine with a stun baton, had MAR a rifle (he didn't fired it) and after a struggle some marines tried to hold him at gunpoint.

My character aimed her rifle at him too.

But instead of giving up, he clicked on something and got shot twice instantly.

The situation got ahelped, and the moderator interacting with me was even confused about the logs, and trying to figure out the situation. - And I am sure he was confused about the rules too...

Was the survivor a "jerk", rule-wise? Of course!
- But someone really distressed by the situation, and acting weird in this traumatic circunstance, is something acceptable.
Survivors CAN be hostile sometimes after all. Trying to arrest a marine is a type of hostile action, not that different from a survivor shooting at the marines on the sight (only a lot more interesting roleplay-wise).

The marines did something wrong by trying to hold him at gunpoint, for detaining him?
- Rule-wise, yes, it would be "improper escalation". He didn't used lethal force, and the result of trying to hold him at gunpoint turned into lethal force being used.
But what else the marines could do? Let the suspicious civillian stun the entire squad and arrest a marine? ("Suspicious" because he could be even the culprit behind the massacre, as we witnessed only "blood everywhere", but we had no contact with the xenos yet at that point.)

...Putting the fact that it involved marines, and not command staff, apart? The questions number 3 (intervention on a riot) and 4 (holding someone at gunpoint / arresting someone) on my post are about this exact theme. ;)
Oh was thats what happened?
I would if shot him too if I was marine.
He made it seem like something completely different and logs didnt show him at all touching anyone. I should of known, Jacob is known as a pretty shitty player.

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Re: Command Staff procedures for Riots / Mutiny / Desertion / Crime / SHTF / FUBAR in absense of MPs.

Post by Ms.Degrasse » 29 Jun 2016, 17:11

Feweh wrote: Oh was thats what happened?
I would if shot him too if I was marine.
He made it seem like something completely different and logs didnt show him at all touching anyone. I should of known, Jacob is known as a pretty shitty player.
Yes Feweh... That is what happened.
If you take a look at the logs, you will easily see two things.
- His character complaining about a marine stealing things from brig, and in a later point even mentioning the marine law.
- He firing a taser.

It's quite insane, for a civillian colonist who passed through the entire xenomorph attack and survived, to be acting that way. But that is exactly how I took it.
"This guy is on extreme distress, delirious and went totally nuts." - Just a flavour of hostile colonist.

Fun fact? I was playing as Sadako...
She would had no qualms on shooting or slashing to death a colonist firing at the marines with a rifle.
But - even her being a bloodthirsty character - she told him to stop, and tried to hold him on gunpoint.

...Just because she wasn't sure if just killing him on the spot would be lawful and valid as self defense.

Can a player instantly use lethal force against an MP trying to arrest or detaining him?
- NO!

But if it isn't an MP?
- Falls into a grey zone, dangerously not addressed by the rules...

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Re: Command Staff procedures for Riots / Mutiny / Desertion / Crime / SHTF / FUBAR in absense of MPs.

Post by Clayton_Kelly » 29 Jun 2016, 19:06

If an RO is stockpiling lots of high end weapons for no good roleplay reason, I think this would fall under the admins responsibility more than an in-game character responsibility to handle.

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