Streamline Surgery Times

[Surrealistik]

Summary (a quick, 2-3 sentence summary):

Per the subject.


Benefits (How this will benefit the server and game as a whole):

Helps prevent instances of surgery turning into such a ridiculous, impossible bottleneck, which results in insanely stressed out doctors, and angry, impatient marines who have to sit out of the round for 40+ minutes doing nothing because Medbay gets so flooded with bodies, that even with both surgery theatres and Hangar surgery running at full bore, Medbay ends up with a huge queue.

Making anesthetic nigh mandatory, and increasing the incidence and rapidity of infection without washing has only compounded this.


Details (Description of how you think this would work, the benefits, etc):

Remove RNG from shrapnel/bullet/foreign body removal (it literally took me 8 attempts one round).

Reduce the time required to perform each step.

Reduce the time required to wash hands and attach masks/anesthetic tanks.

Make anesthetic injectors inject an _effective_ anesthetic like Chloral. It takes way too much Soporific to work as an anesthetic suitable for surgery or anything else for that matter.


Implementation (Optional, if you have an idea how to implement it):

Minor coding changes.

[Toroic]

+1 to removing shrapnel rng. Many marines with otherwise treatable injuries are better off killed with a saw and then cloned because spending 3 min picking out shrapnel is a waste of time.

[MauroVega]

+1 only to the Rng removal,technically if the person is with anes the rng should be 100%
-1 the rest

[Snypehunter007]

+1 to the RNG removal, but I think the rest is fine as is. As a doctor I can fix broken bones in almost less then a minute if I am actually focused on playing instead of reading a book and playing at the same time.

[Surrealistik]

+1 to the RNG removal, but I think the rest is fine as is. As a doctor I can fix broken bones in almost less then a minute if I am actually focused on playing instead of reading a book and playing at the same time.

Medbay simply isn't equipped to deal with mass casualties during high pop, even with a perfect cryo mix and medbot support. Doesn't matter how good the doctors are, there just isn't enough time to deal with a sprawling bottleneck of 30+ fractures

[Snypehunter007]

Medbay simply isn't equipped to deal with mass casualties during high pop, even with a perfect cryo mix and medbot support. Doesn't matter how good the doctors are, there just isn't enough time to deal with a sprawling bottleneck of 30+ fractures

Going in order from the original post real quick:

-Agreed to the RNG

-Isn't time reduced by having better tools? *cough* hopefully in the "Research" update *cough*

-(Are you not wearing gloves?) I don't actually run into situations where I have toooo many infections and it takes very little amounts of time to wash you hands, applying the tanks takes longer.

-Injectors work.....okay......but they often give Tox. Damage and you can't purge someone of the stuff instantly unless you throw the in the sleepers and start Dialysis, which takes even MORE time for you to help them instead of just taking off their tanks and shaking them once.

[TheSpoonyCroy]

+1 on the RNG since really removing shrapnel is the worst part of surgery.

-1 on the rest since probably the reason why Soporific and Chloral isn't great is because people used to abuse the shit out of it

Hell currently medical has a few "bugs" which help increase the time of surgery like switching tools mid step ie start opening someone up with the retractor, switch hand, grab saw (or any other tool...), switch back and you barely have enough time to do such a thing especially when the game is lagging but I do find it is a bitch move to macro the tools since it removes the whole frantic nature of this process. This one has been confirmed as a bug but there is a down side to using it since if you don't switch back quickly the step fails and could cause more damage.... Same concept with putting on the mask and tank, put the mask on, switch hand, put the tank on twice, switch back, wait till the mask is on, then switch and done. Or you know ask the person to put on the tank and mask (which makes everything easier)

Also if you want to minmax/powergame you could just use space cleaner to wash your hands by clicking your character

[Surrealistik]

+1 on the RNG since really removing shrapnel is the worst part of surgery.

-1 on the rest since probably the reason why Soporific and Chloral isn't great is because people used to abuse the shit out of it

Soporific is shit by default; nothing's been done to it.

As for Chloral, nothing's been done to it according to Apop.

Hell currently medical has a few "bugs" which help increase the time of surgery like switching tools mid step ie start opening someone up with the retractor, switch hand, grab saw (or any other tool...), switch back and you barely have enough time to do such a thing especially when the game is lagging but I do find it is a bitch move to macro the tools since it removes the whole frantic nature of this process. This one has been confirmed as a bug but there is a down side to using it since if you don't switch back quickly the step fails and could cause more damage.... Same concept with putting on the mask and tank, put the mask on, switch hand, put the tank on twice, switch back, wait till the mask is on, then switch and done. Or you know ask the person to put on the tank and mask (which makes everything easier)

Obviously bugs/exploits shouldn't be assumed when it comes to surgery times..

-(Are you not wearing gloves?) I don't actually run into situations where I have toooo many infections and it takes very little amounts of time to wash you hands, applying the tanks takes longer.

-Injectors work.....okay......but they often give Tox. Damage and you can't purge someone of the stuff instantly unless you throw the in the sleepers and start Dialysis, which takes even MORE time for you to help them instead of just taking off their tanks and shaking them once.

You still have to wash gloves, and hand washing does take precious time (though granted you could use space cleaner).

Soporific/Chloral doesn't inflict toxin damage until OD.

[MrJJJ]

Medbay simply isn't equipped to deal with mass casualties during high pop,

Use the damn roller beds, i once did 4 surgeries at the same time using them, sure they have a fail rate, but its small and you have enough anesthetics for it to work, i managed to save a lot of people from horrible fates using roller beds

[TheSpoonyCroy]

Obviously bugs/exploits shouldn't be assumed when it comes to surgery times..

I would have to disagree with that. These bugs at least make logical sense compared to the currently pop up the nanomed to autorefill autosyringes (since yes this is a code oversight that is just accepted for use) meta, you seem quite fawn of even when there is no rp sense to it at the start of the round. Some of these bugs can actually raise the skill ceiling which I admit isn't even that high (due to the basic nature of ss13 medical systems) best example of this from other games would be Skiing from Tribes link and with your proposed changes of lowering surgical times, you are just dropping skill floor which was already low as hell and lowering the skill ceiling (which again wasn't that high at all for medical)

[Toroic]

I would have to disagree with that. These bugs at least make logical sense compared to the currently pop up the nanomed to autorefill autosyringes (since yes this is a code oversight that is just accepted for use) meta, you seem quite fawn of even when there is no rp sense to it at the start of the round. Some of these bugs can actually raise the skill ceiling which I admit isn't even that high (due to the basic nature of ss13 medical systems) best example of this from other games would be Skiing from Tribes link and with your proposed changes of lowering surgical times, you are just dropping skill floor which was already low as hell and lowering the skill ceiling (which again wasn't that high at all for medical)

Skill ceiling isn't that high for medical... compared to what?

Being a standard marine is easy as shit, building is a lot easier than doing chem, surgery, and triage.

Surr in particular mass produces complex chems which takes a lot of skill and experience to get right.

Why does this community attract so many neanderthals?

[Surrealistik]

Use the damn roller beds, i once did 4 surgeries at the same time using them, sure they have a fail rate, but its small and you have enough anesthetics for it to work, i managed to save a lot of people from horrible fates using roller beds

I'm aware of roller bed surgery; been there, done that, but with what surgical supplies?

Also the current limit of doctors and CMO isn't adequate to deal with high pop mass casualties even with everyone having surgical tools, the competency to use them and an otherwise optimized medbay (perfect 120 cryomix, medbots, etc); if you have both of these things it can process most levels of casualty flows, but you'll still get massive bottle necking in these cases.

I would have to disagree with that. These bugs at least make logical sense compared to the currently pop up the nanomed to autorefill autosyringes (since yes this is a code oversight that is just accepted for use) meta, you seem quite fawn of even when there is no rp sense to it at the start of the round. Some of these bugs can actually raise the skill ceiling which I admit isn't even that high (due to the basic nature of ss13 medical systems) best example of this from other games would be Skiing from Tribes link and with your proposed changes of lowering surgical times, you are just dropping skill floor which was already low as hell and lowering the skill ceiling (which again wasn't that high at all for medical)

Being able to start on a step before the prior one is complete makes much less sense than chems being synthesized by a vendor, given that the Chem Dispenser is basically all about converting energy to chemicals of your choosing; how exactly does one start on expanding a ribcage _before_ you're done cutting through it?

Further, that one is confirmed as a bug and the other isn't that says everything.

Also I'm not sure what you mean by me being 'fawn of it' 'at the start of the round'. I pop the vendors open as Researcher to prevent vendor medical supplies from being wasted and discarded instead of recycled as they often are otherwise. Probably the only time I take advantage of restocking for autoinjectors early is to extract Quickclot for Peridex pills and the cryomix.

[TheSpoonyCroy]

-snip-

Think you are confusing the term of skill floor and ceiling. Yes standard marines and medics might have a lot lower skill floor but their ceiling is way higher than any noncombatant medical job (this coming from a person who plays only medical....) since fact is combat in this game is wonky and all the other medical jobs can be achieved by memorization (surgery and chems) and via spreadsheets. I would also call myself proficient in chem on this server and I am part of the 120u master race and fact is I made my cryomix with spreadsheets, think I spent around 2 hours off game just formulating a cryomix and writing steps to make it in a relatively efficient way (still have to working on that). There are around 17 chemicals that chemist should know about due to providing positive effects the rest could be ignored or be looked up on demand. Really medical is just all about following steps and simple parameters ie

• guy drowning in his own blood > a guy with a broken arm and stable but whining "why he isn't being treated"
• If brute damage to a section that is being operated on is X>30 (if the bone is broken) = either put bicar, tricor, or cryo until its X<30 or fear a resnap
• Head supplied, is there a Body(B) associated with said head if not, locate Body replacement (Br) preferable with same gender and skin tone (alot less to explain and less likely to break their mind), if B is supplied just reattach and clone

This is the reason why the skill ceiling is low since most things medical handles are in a very static environment, they rarely have to fear getting murdered (of course stealth hunters and boarding could be issues), they rarely have to deal with attrition, rarely have to deal with issues in non-optimal situations since medbay is generally the most ideal place to be worked on

Being able to start on a step before the prior one is complete makes much less sense than chems being synthesized by a vendor, given that the Chem Dispenser is basically all about converting energy to chemicals of your choosing; how exactly does one start on expanding a ribcage _before_ you're done cutting through it?

1. Ahhh that doesn't make sense at all, and seems you misunderstood what I said. I in fact never said you "start" the step prior to completing the previous step, it doesn't work that way the reason to swap your hands is to grab a tool and be ready when the step is completed to start the next step with little interruptions.
2. There are negative effects if you aren't quick enough
3. Humans have 2 hands, so not hard to grab a secondary tool while focused on another object, honestly a surgeon would know where he places his tool like the back of his own hand, so its not unreasonable they do it without looking where their hand is

Because yes a glorified vending machine can refill autoinjectors, hell totally able to synthesize drugs that even a chemist couldn't make (Russian reds and quickclot) even though a burger vending machine does the same effect in a less logical way (because yeah a burger vend machine is able to recreate the burger, bun, other things, and reseal the ripped plastic container because space magic. Fact is vending machines in this game are designed with that oversight to reduce lag, since replacing the item is way easier to do than keeping track of the quantity of drugs in the machine

[Surrealistik]

1. Ahhh that doesn't make sense at all, and seems you misunderstood what I said. I in fact never said you "start" the step prior to completing the previous step, it doesn't work that way the reason to swap your hands is to grab a tool and be ready when the step is completed to start the next step with little interruptions.
2. There are negative effects if you aren't quick enough
3. Humans have 2 hands, so not hard to grab a secondary tool while focused on another object, honestly a surgeon would know where he places his tool like the back of his own hand, so its not unreasonable they do it without looking where their hand is

Oh, if you're just talking about hand switching to minimize the already short delays between steps, yeah that's not a big deal and it shaves off relatively little time. In general the risk of time loss for botching further diminishes its value (because you're going to have some level of error and even one erodes much if not all of the gains for a surgery).

Because yes a glorified vending machine can refill autoinjectors, hell totally able to synthesize drugs that even a chemist couldn't make (Russian reds and quickclot) even though a burger vending machine does the same effect in a less logical way (because yeah a burger vend machine is able to recreate the burger, bun, other things, and reseal the ripped plastic container because space magic. Fact is vending machines in this game are designed with that oversight to reduce lag, since replacing the item is way easier to do than keeping track of the quantity of drugs in the machine

The thing is we have the precedence of a machine whose entire point is canonically creating a broad diversity of chems from basically energy (Chem Dispenser), so the idea of a MedPlus being able to do so for the limited subset of things it dispenses it isn't at all outlandish with that in the game.

[Toroic]

Think you are confusing the term of skill floor and ceiling. Yes standard marines and medics might have a lot lower skill floor but their ceiling is way higher than any noncombatant medical job (this coming from a person who plays only medical....) since fact is combat in this game is wonky and all the other medical jobs can be achieved by memorization (surgery and chems) and via spreadsheets. I would also call myself proficient in chem on this server and I am part of the 120u master race and fact is I made my cryomix with spreadsheets, think I spent around 2 hours off game just formulating a cryomix and writing steps to make it in a relatively efficient way (still have to working on that). There are around 17 chemicals that chemist should know about due to providing positive effects the rest could be ignored or be looked up on demand. Really medical is just all about following steps and simple parameters ie

• guy drowning in his own blood > a guy with a broken arm and stable but whining "why he isn't being treated"
• If brute damage to a section that is being operated on is X>30 (if the bone is broken) = either put bicar, tricor, or cryo until its X<30 or fear a resnap
• Head supplied, is there a Body(B) associated with said head if not, locate Body replacement (Br) preferable with same gender and skin tone (alot less to explain and less likely to break their mind), if B is supplied just reattach and clone

This is the reason why the skill ceiling is low since most things medical handles are in a very static environment, they rarely have to fear getting murdered (of course stealth hunters and boarding could be issues), they rarely have to deal with attrition, rarely have to deal with issues in non-optimal situations since medbay is generally the most ideal place to be worked on

1. Ahhh that doesn't make sense at all, and seems you misunderstood what I said. I in fact never said you "start" the step prior to completing the previous step, it doesn't work that way the reason to swap your hands is to grab a tool and be ready when the step is completed to start the next step with little interruptions.
2. There are negative effects if you aren't quick enough
3. Humans have 2 hands, so not hard to grab a secondary tool while focused on another object, honestly a surgeon would know where he places his tool like the back of his own hand, so its not unreasonable they do it without looking where their hand is

Because yes a glorified vending machine can refill autoinjectors, hell totally able to synthesize drugs that even a chemist couldn't make (Russian reds and quickclot) even though a burger vending machine does the same effect in a less logical way (because yeah a burger vend machine is able to recreate the burger, bun, other things, and reseal the ripped plastic container because space magic. Fact is vending machines in this game are designed with that oversight to reduce lag, since replacing the item is way easier to do than keeping track of the quantity of drugs in the machine

Combat isn't that hard. It's using similar skills and algorithms, just a little more twitch skill and less memorization and management.

Saying combat is somehow harder to do well than medical simply isn't true. You need a similar set of skills, though combat is more twitch and medical is more decision making/triage.

They're not that different in skill cap, and combat has a much, much lower skill floor.

[TopHatPenguin]

Shrapnel randomness is now no more, bump for the other surgery buffs.

[Snypehunter007]

Uh BUMP I guess the other two need to be talked about.

[Jroinc1]

Time reduced per step happened with the surgery update. Also, advanced tools.

[forwardslashN]

Resolved, then.