Do Not Apply New System to SADAR

[Neray]

Summary (a quick, 2-3 sentence summary):
SADAR, as was mentioned many times, is a very simple weapon. Do not apply class drawbacks to it.

Benefits (How this will benefit the server and game as a whole):
Realism, game immersion and balance.

Details (Description of how you think this would work, the benefits, etc):
AT system such as SADAR is basically just a boomstick that doesn't require special skills and is usually part of basic military training. Adding an accuracy nerf for it in situations when it's being used by usual marines would be a bad and gameplay ruining idea, since SADAR rounds are already expensive and rare.

Implementation (Optional, if you have an idea how to implement it):
Just don't include it in upcoming patch.

[slc97]

-1
As Feweh said in the previous thread about this. This is not about immersion and it is not about realism. This is about balance. To maintain balance, only specialists will be able to use SADAR.

[Feweh]

I cant wait to see the Sadar blow up in Standard Marines faces when they attempt to fire it.

[Neray]

-1
As Feweh said in the previous thread about this. This is not about immersion and it is not about realism. This is about balance. To maintain balance, only specialists will be able to use SADAR.

Slc97, please, check that second link to Rah's post. You're dropping old information here.
Here, in case you can't see that link for some reason:

► Show Spoiler

Note: ID-locking has been discussed and discarded. We are most likely moving to a system that allows all jobs to use all weapons. However, if a standard marine picks up an M56 Smartgun, their accuracy, reload speed, and other factors will severely hinder their ability to use it effectively as opposed to a Specialist who is an expert with the weapon. The same example will apply to most other weapons.

I cant wait to see the Sadar blow up in Standard Marines faces when they attempt to fire it.

I can't find any logical means why it could happen. Even if you'll try to load rocket wrong way, it just won't fit in.

[MrJJJ]

TBH i don't see the point of even trying to limit the spec weapons to specialists, they already being meta-targeted by aliens, why encourage that more?

[doodeeda]

Squads will just have to work together more and protect each other. Specific people having essential roles is what drives a squad together partly out of necessity. You take that away once everyone can just do what they want or what is needed regardless of who is lost.

[Neray]

Squads will just have to work together more and protect each other. Specific people having essential roles is what drives a squad together partly out of necessity.

I'm not talking about nerf itself, I'm only asking to not include boomsticks in it. They're as easy to use as pistols. Same can be applied to GLs, by the way.

You take that away once everyone can just do what they want or what is needed regardless of who is lost.

This is the main idea behind any modern soldier's training. And we're in 21th century. Interchangeability, man, at least when we're talking about small arms and special equipment. Private McPrivate most likely won't be able to operate self-propelled artillery complex, but I doubt that he'll have any problems operating C-4 or squad marksman's rifle.

[Rey]

I don't really get it either, I'd plus one this but it seems rather pointless.

► Show Spoiler

Har har har, did you really think we will take community input? >:}D

[doodeeda]

This is the main idea behind any modern soldier's training. And we're in 21th century. Interchangeability, man, at least when we're talking about small arms and special equipment.

In the game, we need as much motivation as possible for people to play in a group and depend on each other. People barely know each other most of the time in a squad while that wouldn't be the case in real life.

[Toroic]

TBH i don't see the point of even trying to limit the spec weapons to specialists, they already being meta-targeted by aliens, why encourage that more?

Specs don't get meta-targeted any more than boilers do. The moment they fire their sniper or SADAR the entire hive knows they're a priority.

[Neray]

In the game, we need as much motivation as possible for people to play in a group and depend on each other.

This is IC issue it has nothing to do with OOC rules or nerfs. Specs are sergeants and thus they're second in command in squad ranking system. If people refuses to follow your orders you can always call MPs on them. Also, the only squads I saw not defending their NCOs are squads full of baldies with APs. Plus, 95% of times spec's body will be eaten right away by random runner or crusher and lost forever with his equipment. Nerfing those lucky 5% when you was able to get his boomstick back is quite pointless.

For example, usual situation after spec's death is that SL or other squady grabs his weapon and tries to get his body back to cloning or at least defend the rest of squad with it. Which, imo, is totally RP-wise accurate.

Specs don't get meta-targeted any more than boilers do. The moment they fire their sniper or SADAR the entire hive knows they're a priority.

People calling it meta because usually aliens are trying to get rid of them asap, not just kill them. For example, I saw crushers standing in bullet storm eating a spec's body like, 12-13 times. Meta here is knowledge about cloning system on board of Sully.

[slc97]

Neray, I apologize. I'm at work and had not yet read that update.

I will say this though, I do still believe the new system should be applied to the SADAR. I think for balance sake it should remain a specialized weapon.

Now if you want to suggest that a second specialist be available per squad (like how we have two engineers and medics) I would support that and that would put more SADARs into circulation. It may even make it more difficult for xenos to meta specialists with the number of targets doubled.

As it stands though, this is still a -1 for me. The SADAR should remain a specialized weapon.

[Warnipple]

I'd like it so that you couldn't reload the SADAR but you could fire it.

Reloading the SADAR would mean you're looting the spec but just picking it up to fire it would be fine.

Also no ID lock on flamers pls.

[Neray]

I'd like it so that you couldn't reload the SADAR but you could fire it.

Reloading the SADAR would mean you're looting the spec but just picking it up to fire it would be fine.

Also no ID lock on flamers pls.

IRL AT teams usually work in pairs, with one guy carrying spare charges and helping with reloading, while the other one aiming and firing it. So blocking reloading is even worser idea, imo. It's as simple as changing mag in your gun, even if you're working with WWII-era AT weapons. Yeah, there're some special things like AT weapons that can be used for both air and ground targets and requires special synched laser equipment (though firing an air-only stinger with in-built aiming is easy as hell), but SADAR is basically a bazooka v2. If you don't believe me, look at AvP2 reloading for example.

Once again - AT training is part of basic training in any military force nowadays, even medics and pilots are being trained with them. And marines aren't just PDF militia, they're special ship based troops with high-tech equipment and professional training. The only exception here is mentaly unstable Urist McBaldie, that got into Sully cryo system and managed to clone himself many, many times. Thus are our usual baldies.

[ShortTemperedLeprechaun]

I can't find any logical means why it could happen. Even if you'll try to load rocket wrong way, it just won't fit in.

Sniiiip

You underestimate the power, OF THE STANDARD MARINE! *Cue music*

[MrJJJ]

Specs don't get meta-targeted any more than boilers do. The moment they fire their sniper or SADAR the entire hive knows they're a priority.

Yes, but you don't see boilers getting buffed or nefred to prevent this now, do they? yet specs are for whatever the fuck reason

[Feweh]

Yes, but you don't see boilers getting buffed or nefred to prevent this now, do they? yet specs are for whatever the fuck reason

This has always been a rule and Specs arent being nerfed.
Youve never been allowed fo use spec weapons aside from the flamer.

Its been like this for a solid year now. The amount of mis-information is ridiculous.

Weve never allowed spec weapons to be looted or non specs to use them. Now we're going to ALLOW standards to use them but with a debuff on.

So logically if anything Spec weapons are being buffed for the marine side.

[MrJJJ]

This has always been a rule and Specs arent being nerfed.
Youve never been allowed fo use spec weapons aside from the flamer.

Its been like this for a solid year now. The amount of mis-information is ridiculous.

Weve never allowed spec weapons to be looted or non specs to use them. Now we're going to ALLOW standards to use them but with a debuff on.

So logically if anything Spec weapons are being buffed for the marine side.

1.It has been a rule, but people always picked them up in order to fight and rescue said SPEC usually, especially since he might have been stunned/gotten into crit
2.No this is not a buff, if you do this, then specialists will be targeted more, and their weapons destroyed even quicker, the significant debuff will fuck over any standard to tries to use the weapon to either save himself OR the spec

[Feweh]

1.It has been a rule, but people always picked them up in order to fight and rescue said SPEC usually, especially since he might have been stunned/gotten into crit
2.No this is not a buff, if you do this, then specialists will be targeted more, and their weapons destroyed even quicker, the significant debuff will fuck over any standard to tries to use the weapon to either save himself OR the spec

Why would they be targetted anymore than before?
Seriously, theyre already a priority? Any smart xeno player takes out specialist first if they can, this changes nothing what so ever.

[MrJJJ]

Why would they be targetted anymore than before?
Seriously, theyre already a priority? Any smart xeno player takes out specialist first if they can, this changes nothing what so ever.

Yes it does, with shitty accuracy especially, standards and such who saw the spec weapon and managed to grab it before spec bit the dust/went to crit, they don't have to worry much about it, so in short, you heavily nerfed specs, making they deaths very harsh (most of the time which can't be controlled) for no real reason, if you got a problem with them getting looted, well, it damn happens if on ground, but if on clonning, then you have to re-map it and re-code it in a way that prevents them getting looted

[Feweh]

Yes it does, with shitty accuracy especially, standards and such who saw the spec weapon and managed to grab it before spec bit the dust/went to crit, they don't have to worry much about it, so in short, you heavily nerfed specs, making they deaths very harsh (most of the time which can't be controlled) for no real reason, if you got a problem with them getting looted, well, it damn happens if on ground, but if on clonning, then you have to re-map it and re-code it in a way that prevents them getting looted

I dont understand?
Its a rule that you arent allowed to loot SPEC items.
To aleviate this rule a bit we've decided to let anyone use the weapons but at a disadvantage.

So you're saying now that we should code it so the weapons dont get stolen? Which we said we'd do with a ID lock but changed it due to public suggestions.


So at the end of everything, we've changed our rules (will be) to allow anyone to use them. You no longer will be in trouble for using them anymore.

This is a massibe buff towards the marines considering before only select people could use the weapons, but now anyone can?

[MrJJJ]

I dont understand?
Its a rule that you arent allowed to loot SPEC items.

Its a rule, doesn't mean its constantly broken to save someone.

To aleviate this rule a bit we've decided to let anyone use the weapons but at a disadvantage.

hence making it useless to even try and carrying to save

So you're saying now that we should code it so the weapons dont get stolen? Which we said we'd do with a ID lock but changed it due to public suggestions.

Wonder if you actually read what i said or just skimmed over, here let me say it again
if you got a problem with them getting looted, well, it damn happens if on ground, but if on clonning, then you have to re-map it and re-code it in a way that prevents them getting looted (no id lock mentioned)

So at the end of everything, we've changed our rules (will be) to allow anyone to use them. You no longer will be in trouble for using them anymore.

Not like anyone did actually got in trouble for using them...

This is a massibe buff towards the marines considering before only select people could use the weapons, but now anyone can?

Anyone always could use it, and the rule was barely ever enforced, you basically nerfed people who would pick it up and use it

[Neray]

This is a massibe buff towards the marines considering before only select people could use the weapons, but now anyone can?

Even though this is getting us away from topic, I should point out that I never saw anyone telling standards that they can't use spec weapons. Almost every round for last 2 years I saw em being taken and used by everyone, with random drops of such weapons in W-Y pods and in admin spawned CL requested drops. You started enforcing it only recently for no particular reason, other than, as you said "to prevent ahelps about weapons being stolen". More though, I never ever met a spec that was against it after he died.
As was mentioned by few guys and me, Apop once said to general public that SADAR can be used by everyone, and that's the only case I remember when somebody ever mentioned this issue. Maybe I missed something, but it seems like this whole "muh spec weapons" thing was enforced only by few staff members and on very rare occasions, without proper rule base.

Right now you're trying to put it like "it was there all this time, but now we'll generously allow you to use them", which isn't true, at least I never met any staff resistance while using those. And I'm pretty sure if Apop wanted to disallow it, he would have pointed it out in metagame section long ago.

[Feweh]

Ah ok I understand now.

Unfortunately breaking our rules in-place does not constitute a proper excuse or valid arguement.

We have always actively enforced the SPEC weapon rule when ever possible. As I said, we're now putting in a new system thatll improve this.

Anyways, your suggestion is fine. I simply didnt understand that your main point was "everyone ignored the rule and admins didnt enforce it" which is 100% false.

[Neray]

Ah ok I understand now.

Unfortunately breaking our rules in-place does not constitute a proper excuse or valid arguement.

We have always actively enforced the SPEC weapon rule when ever possible. As I said, we're now putting in a new system thatll improve this.

Anyways, your suggestion is fine. I simply didnt understand that your main point was "everyone ignored the rule and admins didnt enforce it" which is 100% false.

My point HERE is the one about SADAR, so, please, read OP post again.

Maybe we were playing on two different servers, I never saw anyone being admin alerted because of that. And I can count hundreds of cases (excluding ones with weapons from ERT drops and CL ordered stuff) when those weapons were used by non-specs, lots of them including famous players and even some staff members. Once again, I never saw this rule stated or enforced anywhere until now, but I digress.