Gameplay discussion: Marine "Turtling"

[GrimdogX]

First off let me say I do not make this post to whine simply to create a discussion as with all posts I make, or to create a place that can clarify was is and is not "Ok" in the game of CM.

A not entirely new but more modified and often occurring trend in CM is marine "Turtling" for the uninitiated this is the process in which Marines quite simply sit in one place and do nothing until the xenos attack. A bit of clarification for this, I do not presume to say that xenos cannot turtle nor do I mind taking a defensive position for either side, even if not under attack I am not saying that at any point (unless ordered) do I think you are required to attack.

The more specific version of being a turtle I speak of is something that has happened to me thrice as a xeno so far, and only in my recent history. Recently a trend has developed in which Marines will retreat from the planet with anywhere between 20-40 Marines still surviving and just well, wait, they will wait until the Xenomorphs attack the Sulaco and at said time surround the rasputin and just fill it with Underslungs and explosives. Now again why I make this post is NOT to complain, I find it a perfectly valid albeit oddly infuriating strategy and feel that it is one of the points where we have to choose immersion over balance.

For the most part I want to ask a question, is it ok for Marines to essentially force the Xenomorphs to try and end the round? the best ambush in this game I feel presents itself when the Aliens arrive on the Sulaco on the Rasputin, but is this something as a question of immersion something Marines would do? A second point, is it ok for them to do this on top of welding the doors and vents? even if the Sulaco has had no visit of Xenomorphs in the past? and a last question, who is more obligated to attack?

For the most part, I make this post because it just happened, I'm bored sitting here waiting for the round to end and honestly could chalk it up to "Greytide" whether or not you want to make this a serious question is up to you, but I am interested in hearing opinions on the subject.

[Sarah_U.]

Personally I'd like to see a better lower-deck defence, but two different places aliens can attack. Would diversify the gameplay, strategies, tactics, etc.

Otherwise I'm entirely fine with marines camping and whatnot, as long as they don't start being assholes about it (Chemnade and stuff while they outnumber aliens 4 to 1).

[SUPERMAN112]

So no marines cannot weld vents or doors if no xenos have been there, that is very clearly meta-gaming. While yes it is true this is something marines do sometimes it is just the marines attempting to get healed and geared up to attack again which can take a while. When aliens get to the sulaco they have a clear advantage if not surrounded, since marines cannot use mines or SADARs. If there are that many marines then the aliens either rushed to early or the marines forced the aliens to attack. I have been a queen and sometimes the marines flee way too early, and you just know it. So most of the time I just wait, but get forced to call the shuttle either by admin or xenos getting extremely angry and ghosting/talking up the hivemind. That being said sometimes xenos turtle in a hive full of eggs when hopelessly outnumbered so it happens on both sides.

[Jeser]

Many times, when marines have reatreated, they heal, rearm and Command order to gather in Brief for second briefing.
Marines prepare for a second invasion on planet, and aliens usually call shuttle exactly in that moment. I see it pretty often.

[ZDashe]

From all my rounds of Marine, Xeno and observer, I noticed that these "Turtling" tactics are incidental, and not typically ordered by commanders.

These are the occasions when "Turtling" became incidental:
1. Dropship/pod calls are not frequently made, resulting in huge waves of wounded/KIA marines being sent back to Sulaco at once.
2. Command being situationally unaware, and decides to panic order marines to pull back to Sulaco. (Comms outage, SM failure, squads not giving SITREP until one marine yells that planet is fucked etc.)
3. Over-reaction to an alien intruder on Sulaco, forcing command to order marines back to deal with it (without specifying which squad to remain behind, ending up everyone returns...)
4. No proper FOB being set up (you'll see these sometimes on low pop rounds), and the only fall-back point is the Sulaco. Then with latejoins, and coincidentally the queen decides to invade, they become greatly outnumbered.

These are just some instances off the top of my head. I have not yet seen a round where command deliberately pulls back 20 over healthy marines at once just to "Turtle" on purpose though.

[GrimdogX]

I should clarify a bit more, the instances I spoke of happened when Marine command called a full retreat after marines lost anywhere between 20%-40% of the fighting force at one point. The thing that sort of annoyed me was they stayed up on the Sulaco for I'd say 15-20 minutes enough time to clone, heal, rearm etc. and then just stayed there, it was clarified later that the CO "Planned" to do this in order to "Lure" the Aliens onto the Sulaco, again this was only in the most recent game but in general I just wanted to see how people felt about that strategy as a whole. I am unsure how the staff feels about this but I too would like a more diverse way for Aliens to board instead of just jumping into a meat grinder and hoping not to get mulched by grenades, chem nades are becoming more and more popular which makes clumping up on the Rasputin more and more fatal usually. I do agree that a lot of these are incidental and from different perspectives can be seen differently, but since different staff members have differing views on who is more obligated to attack between Marines and Xenos it can be kind of annoying for either side to essentially be told to jump into a hoard of death and just hope.

[Desolane900]

Honestly, turtling of any form annoys and frustrates me simply because of the fact that it never works and just extends rounds to ungodly times.

Personally I don't like the quiet, eerie waiting part. My marine buddy once told me "I've been shot, stoned, blown up, run over, and stabbed. But it's the waiting that's going to kill me." (Rip marine buddy) and I honestly can agree with this posthumous quote. I play the game to play it. I understand when a squad needs to guard the fob but when every player on the team sits around and waits, it becomes a chore to play and I've literally fallen asleep at my keyboard while turtling several times.

Turtling is absolute cancer.

[Shyguychizzy]

Marine turtling is not the worst I have seen, I do recall a round where they basically pingponged the damn Rasputin. Both sides had if I remember correctly were quite even, though thanks pingponging the rasp, the round went on even farther. (For those wondering what I mean by pingponging the rasputin, basically both sides are sending the rasp down, and the other party sends it back up.) Though marine Turtling has won a few battles, due to command ordering em to get back down. Sometimes, recall their forces actually won a round for withdrawing their forces, resulting in marine either minor or major victory. But I dislike the idea of Marine turtling, if I was the CO, I never Marine turtle the sully. Either pull em back, re-arm, send em back down immediately, or let the forces planetside take their course and keep fighting, until reinforcements come.

[Ithalan]

Could be handled with an incentive to keep a presence on the planet maybe? Just like aliens get a minor victory if marines manage to escape the sulaco, maybe limit marines to a minor victory if they abandon the planet entirely at any point after first getting down there? Possible implementation: set a flag the first time a marine is detected on the planet. Anytime after that, set the flag limiting marines to a minor victory if no live marines (and optionally uninfected) marines are found there.

[Jeser]

I never Marine turtle the sully. Either pull em back, re-arm, send em back down immediately, or let the forces planetside take their course and keep fighting, until reinforcements come.

Yeah, problem is, after full retreat, marines have many wounded, low on ammo, they need to rearm and patch up. This usually can take up to 20 minutes. And, yeah, aliens call shuttle exactly in those 20 minutes "to assault while enemy still wounded and tired and to not let them heal" and then aliens proceed to Rasputin and then there goes everything people mentioned above. Ah, yeah, after that aliens start whinning about turtling, while they were just impatient.

I've seen that too many tims, as marine and as observer.

[SagaSword]

From what i have seen is that when the aliens take over the FOB, marines meta and know that their ass will get served if they go down again due to aliens massively defending the LZs and that makes them turtle until Mother announcement remove the saltiness by a bio-scan. But the aliens attack before the marines can re-arm and then shit happens.
But i've seen latejoiners just go in armory, grab a gun, shoot any xenos on sully and turtle in the EVAC area...which is REALLY annoying.

[hawkshot86]

Hey so as the Lt. That lead the Sulaco defense of the very game in question I want to offer some insight into this.

1) aliens were kicking ass across the board. Marine squads were scattered, largely incapacitated and SLs were KIA or on the sully with severe injuries. Alpha squad, who I was overwatching, had 11 KIA or captured, and they were in the BEST shape.
Commander ordered a general retreat from the planet due to massive casualties and a break down of communication. Hell even the commander was injured.

2) Sully was falling apart. The admins were bitching at us to fix the engine and etc, which is why the distress beacon was sent out when the aliens invaded. We were now fighting on a largely inhospitable ship.

3) Comms were down. Command had no idea what was happening, it was by the grace of a handful of competent LTs that the hangar was defended at all and defended damn well. I literally ran through the ship screaming at everyone to get to the hangar. Sully was not fortified until this point.

4) Several aliens got loose on the ship, which is why vents and doors were sealed. Also, comms came on and I warned engineering that the aliens were under them, which is why they were ready.

5) was still an alien minor victory.

Points: the Sully wasn't defended and no one new exactly how many marines were left. What we did know was that the planet defense had completely collapsed and that we were flying blind. It became paramount to regroup and reassess, which is what we were doing. In my opinion the aliens attacked way to soon and were punished for it. The 20-40 marines were all either fresh from the route, just woke up, or just got out of surgery.

The aliens seem to forget that injured marines also leave the battlefield and go to, wait for it, the Sully.
I agree that turtling is gay, especially done theough metagaming, but this particular incident was by the books. Command just pulled it together, because honestly we were overwhelmed until that point.

Ana 'Sapper' Lolani
Aka the Lt. Who died meleeing a boiler to death

[GrimdogX]

The game I speak of Hawkshot was not won by Aliens, we were mulched entirely on the Rasputin by about 30 Underslungs by firing lines on both sides of the Rasp, it ended with all but one alien dying and that one alien was a Runner on the surface.

[hawkshot86]

The game I speak of Hawkshot was not won by Aliens, we were mulched entirely on the Rasputin by about 30 Underslungs by firing lines on both sides of the Rasp, it ended with all but one alien dying and that one alien was a Runner on the surface.

My mistake then. The game I was thinking of all the aliens died on the sully but one alien was still on the planet, so we lost because we called for evac lol.
My point stands though, a lot of the ones I've seen are aliens that attack the second the marines leave the planet. It gives marines I think a 3 minute warning when you call down the shuttle, which is plenty of time to throw up some walls and get into position to grenade the rasp, especially when the first waves of wounded are just getting back on their feet.

[Renomaki]

I honestly wish marines were a tad braver at times.

Yes, sometime commands panics, but you have to remember that the marines themselves also contribute to this panic as well, fleeing in terror and begging to be brought back up via pod or dropship ASAP rather than stand their ground, only really fighting to the death if there is no way out.

It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees, after all. That is why when I go commander, I try really hard to avoid resorting to cowering on the marine ship. If we are going to lose, might as well do it fighting to the death for every inch of land, no matter how small.

[Toroic]

I honestly wish marines were a tad braver at times.

Yes, sometime commands panics, but you have to remember that the marines themselves also contribute to this panic as well, fleeing in terror and begging to be brought back up via pod or dropship ASAP rather than stand their ground, only really fighting to the death if there is no way out.

It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees, after all. That is why when I go commander, I try really hard to avoid resorting to cowering on the marine ship. If we are going to lose, might as well do it fighting to the death for every inch of land, no matter how small.

That sounds like halfway to Zap Brannigan tactics.

[EMT_321]

Marines get accused of metarush at admin discretion, which in part leads to people "playing it safe" by turtling for ages.

[Renomaki]

That sounds like halfway to Zap Brannigan tactics.

I feel both mildly insulted and amused by this remark.

But seriously though, is it that bad that I prefer to fight to the last man than retreat when the odds can still be turned?

The admins themselves always get grumpy when large groups of marines retreat, and use MOTHER to try and get them back on the field. I myself took notice of this habit, and wanting to be a person of change, often attempt to do things differently as a commander, and of course one of those is trying to hold the planet as long as possible, since as long as you still have somewhere to fall back to, you can resupply and reinforce your army and keep fighting.

I recall one time as an engineer where the marines all retreated.. All but me, that is, with my 3 sentries protecting the flanks of medbay. I was all alone with the defenses I set up earlier in the battle, but I did not falter in the eye of death. I fought to protect the sentries and give the aliens something to be annoyed about as I pushed back their advances and distracted them for a good bit. I was in crit by the end of the fight, but the marines won that battle and I lived to see the end of it. Would it have ended differently if I abandoned those sentries and high-tailed it outta there? No doubt, no doubt indeed.

In short, even in the face of death itself, I often prefer to fight to the end than give up everything I worked towards, the only time retreating is viable is when it is only to a marine FoB, because at least there you are able to quickly get rearmed and back to the fight. Even if others might disagree with it, I find it the most marine way to go out compared to turtling on ol' Sully.

[hawkshot86]

I honestly wish marines were a tad braver at times.

Yes, sometime commands panics, but you have to remember that the marines themselves also contribute to this panic as well, fleeing in terror and begging to be brought back up via pod or dropship ASAP rather than stand their ground, only really fighting to the death if there is no way out.

It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees, after all. That is why when I go commander, I try really hard to avoid resorting to cowering on the marine ship. If we are going to lose, might as well do it fighting to the death for every inch of land, no matter how small.

I try to avoid this too, only really ever commanding my squads to retreat to FoBs unless a commander overrides me when I play BO. I agree, full retreating from planet really sucks, it's harder to land on the planet and harder for the aliens to land on the Sully. It creates an impasse that just delays the game and the action.

[hawkshot86]

I feel both mildly insulted and amused by this remark.

But seriously though, is it that bad that I prefer to fight to the last man than retreat when the odds can still be turned?

The admins themselves always get grumpy when large groups of marines retreat, and use MOTHER to try and get them back on the field. I myself took notice of this habit, and wanting to be a person of change, often attempt to do things differently as a commander, and of course one of those is trying to hold the planet as long as possible, since as long as you still have somewhere to fall back to, you can resupply and reinforce your army and keep fighting.

I recall one time as an engineer where the marines all retreated.. All but me, that is, with my 3 sentries protecting the flanks of medbay. I was all alone with the defenses I set up earlier in the battle, but I did not falter in the eye of death. I fought to protect the sentries and give the aliens something to be annoyed about as I pushed back their advances and distracted them for a good bit. I was in crit by the end of the fight, but the marines won that battle and I lived to see the end of it. Would it have ended differently if I abandoned those sentries and high-tailed it outta there? No doubt, no doubt indeed.

In short, even in the face of death itself, I often prefer to fight to the end than give up everything I worked towards, the only time retreating is viable is when it is only to a marine FoB, because at least there you are able to quickly get rearmed and back to the fight. Even if others might disagree with it, I find it the most marine way to go out compared to turtling on ol' Sully.

It is also the saddest thing in the world to be an engineer, build a ridiculous FoB that would make the aliens cry themselves to sleep, only to have the marines retreat to the sully to suck their thumbs and your FoB turned into a damn egg field.... I agree, marines should try their best to stay on planet, only rotating out wounded or single squads at a time.

[Toroic]

I feel both mildly insulted and amused by this remark.

But seriously though, is it that bad that I prefer to fight to the last man than retreat when the odds can still be turned?

The admins themselves always get grumpy when large groups of marines retreat, and use MOTHER to try and get them back on the field. I myself took notice of this habit, and wanting to be a person of change, often attempt to do things differently as a commander, and of course one of those is trying to hold the planet as long as possible, since as long as you still have somewhere to fall back to, you can resupply and reinforce your army and keep fighting.

I recall one time as an engineer where the marines all retreated.. All but me, that is, with my 3 sentries protecting the flanks of medbay. I was all alone with the defenses I set up earlier in the battle, but I did not falter in the eye of death. I fought to protect the sentries and give the aliens something to be annoyed about as I pushed back their advances and distracted them for a good bit. I was in crit by the end of the fight, but the marines won that battle and I lived to see the end of it. Would it have ended differently if I abandoned those sentries and high-tailed it outta there? No doubt, no doubt indeed.

In short, even in the face of death itself, I often prefer to fight to the end than give up everything I worked towards, the only time retreating is viable is when it is only to a marine FoB, because at least there you are able to quickly get rearmed and back to the fight. Even if others might disagree with it, I find it the most marine way to go out compared to turtling on ol' Sully.

I think that's a cinematic marine attitude, and makes for some great stories.

What you're up against though, is my attitude.

I try to get fully in the mindset of a creature of near human intelligence desperately fighting for their life. I do everything I can to protect the queen, other xenos, and to use any of a dozen techniques to fight off and defeat the marines. I'm constantly aware of my retreat routes and love that moment the marines go from confidently pressing forward, to a more and more desperate retreat that ultimately ends in the death of most of the marines.

[SagaSword]

Whoa! When did this topic get all walls o' text?!!

[Renomaki]

Whoa! When did this topic get all walls o' text?!!

Me and Toroic tend to get very passionate about our debates and discussions, so it tends to evolve into walls of text as we try our best to explain our opinions and views as detailed and understandable as we can.

[Renomaki]

I think that's a cinematic marine attitude, and makes for some great stories.

What you're up against though, is my attitude.

I try to get fully in the mindset of a creature of near human intelligence desperately fighting for their life. I do everything I can to protect the queen, other xenos, and to use any of a dozen techniques to fight off and defeat the marines. I'm constantly aware of my retreat routes and love that moment the marines go from confidently pressing forward, to a more and more desperate retreat that ultimately ends in the death of most of the marines.

It is the sad fact of life for the marines, knowing that most rounds consist of marines delaying the inevitable doom of their platoon, and the worst thing is that their doom is caused more by cockiness than bravery and duty. Too many times I seen an attack fail because too many marines decided to get too stuck in without a helmet, leading to them getting facehugged and accidentally contributing to the alien hordes.

Even when the aliens seem to be losing and morale be boosted from the sight of a fleeing enemy, it is amazing how easily the table can turn from just a few hugged marines.

[Toroic]

It is the sad fact of life for the marines, knowing that most rounds consist of marines delaying the inevitable doom of their platoon, and the worst thing is that their doom is caused more by cockiness than bravery and duty. Too many times I seen an attack fail because too many marines decided to get too stuck in without a helmet, leading to them getting facehugged and accidentally contributing to the alien hordes.

Even when the aliens seem to be losing and morale be boosted from the sight of a fleeing enemy, it is amazing how easily the table can turn from just a few hugged marines.

Well, I've been holding back a bit lately for when I join the fight. I take care of some mod stuff, let some xenos die in the inevitable push on the hive, and once marines move into territory favorable to fight on start picking them off one and two at a time.

I don't like fighting on unfavorable terrain, and while xenos are dying to try to pick off a single marine I'm playing the long game. At this point I probably have over 200 hours playing crusher, so I know pretty much exactly what I can and cannot get away with.