Its time to ban research nades

[Warnipple]

Alright its time to ban research nades.

Why?

- They have a 9x9 explosion radius.
- 9x9 knockdown for all xenos. Damages and does knockdown up to 5 tiles away.
- It does 50% damage to T3 xenos. Elite Empress will take 50% damage. This is AOE too.
- It does minimal damage to marines but it is super deadly to xenos. Currently research grenades will do half your health and a knockdown regardless of team, xenos or marine.

Most of all. Its not fun.

Have you ever been on the Rasputin only to be metagamed by some shitty researcher planting research nades? I've banned people for that. Now the new meta is to give everyone research grenades so they can use it once the Rasp lands. A grey area between metagaming and doing your job. The hanger is a tight spot, 9x9 research grenades wreck havoc to it if aliens can't get a foot hold.

We need to either:
- ban research grenade use on the Sulaco.
- remove research grenades all together

- increase explosive resistance of aliens
- decrease power of research grenades

Research grenades are SUPER deadly to aliens but not as deadly to marines. Its a 9x9 major damage and major knockdown. Why is this allowed?

[YungCuz]

I thought they didn't even do damage and were just massive stun nades.

[Warnipple]

I thought they didn't even do damage and were just massive stun nades.

They do crazy good damage. I was Elite Empress using guard phermones. It did 50% of my HP and had a very long knockdown.

[YungCuz]

Thats actually very strange considering how everyone mentions how the explosive damage was reduced alot in the past essentially making them massive stun nades.
Anyway i'm sorta neutral on i need to consider the options here.

[Warnipple]

I don't recall anything being done about explosive damage.

Explosive damage done to marines? Maybe that was reduced a lot. Because I saw a research grenade go off near two marines who were 2-3 tiles away from it and they didn't get knocked down.

[TeknoKot]

Aliens bitched about mines, you got your ability to slash and marines being wounded from them now.
ID locks on specialists.
Elite+ Queen can now regen screech really quickly.
Attempts on cornershooting(which was stated a feature really long time ago) to get removed and classified as "glitch", ban players for doing so.
Now researcher nades, the only thing that actually gets us some wins, barely any competent researchers around anyways.

What else are you going to remove that made marine fun?

[YungCuz]

Aliens bitched about mines, you got your ability to slash and marines being wounded from them now.
ID locks on specialists.
Elite+ Queen can now regen screech really quickly.
Attempts on cornershooting(which was stated a feature really long time ago) to get removed and classified as "glitch", ban players for doing so.
Now researcher nades, the only thing that actually gets us some wins, barely any competent researchers around anyways.

What else are you going to remove that made marine fun?

Well supposedly its supposed to be hard for marines and i guess this is a direction they are going in.

[Moonloon]

Aliens bitched about mines, you got your ability to slash and marines being wounded from them now.
ID locks on specialists.
Elite+ Queen can now regen screech really quickly.
Attempts on cornershooting(which was stated a feature really long time ago) to get removed and classified as "glitch", ban players for doing so.
Now researcher nades, the only thing that actually gets us some wins, barely any competent researchers around anyways.

What else are you going to remove that made marine fun?

Fun

Really? Fun?

I've been on both sides of these research nades. It's definitely not fun for xenos, as they're only ever used on the sulaco, and more specifically, the rasputin. Fighting through waves of instastun nades that can kill you if used in clusters is really just bullshit.

And on the other side of the fence, it's not fun for marines either. If research nades were ever used on the planet, then maybe it would be, but as is, they're used like the old hangar defences were: As a cheap way to kill off the hive when you've pretty much already lost.

Honestly, I'd just ban them from the sulaco. The planet usually has enough open space to make these things avoidable.

[Warnipple]

Marines are winning just fine without research grenades. With research grenades gives aliens almost no chance to win an assault on the Sulaco. Might as well not assault it all together.

[TeknoKot]

Well supposedly its supposed to be hard for marines and i guess this is a direction they are going in.

There is no "harder for marines" thing, it's pure bias towards aliens. We've already been losing rounds quite a lot even before the whole "ID locks" on specialists was introduced.

Really? Fun?

I've been on both sides of these research nades. It's definitely not fun for xenos, as they're only ever used on the sulaco, and more specifically, the rasputin. Fighting through waves of instastun nades that can kill you if used in clusters is really just bullshit.

And on the other side of the fence, it's not fun for marines either. If research nades were ever used on the planet, then maybe it would be, but as is, they're used like the old hangar defences were: As a cheap way to kill off the hive when you've pretty much already lost.

Honestly, I'd just ban them from the sulaco. The planet usually has enough open space to make these things avoidable.

Problem isn't about marines winning, it's about selective individuals we're talking about, actually being robust and helping marines win these rounds. When they leave, they're making quite the losses. Don't bitch because one marine is better than almost entirety of newbie xenos.

Marines are winning just fine without research grenades. With research grenades gives aliens almost no chance to win an assault on the Sulaco. Might as well not assault it all together.

I'll say the same thing what xeno players usually do after winning, "get better at team work"

[YungCuz]

What if we just throw every good thing marines have out the window and just let the xenos win since its pointless to argue about grenades that a researcher made even though half of the time the researcher would just stand around in his damn lab then eventually killing themselves with poison gas clouds or going ssd.

[Moonloon]

Making research grenades doesn't require skill. You could literally follow a step by step guide and make a bunch of 9x9 research grenades without any difficulty. Throwing them isn't all that hard in the place it's mostly used. (The hangar)

Not having competent researchers for the majority of rounds doesn't make this any less of a cheap tactic. Just ban their use on the sulaco, it's not fun for anyone involved except the researcher himself.

[Toroic]

I'm fine with even just banning them from the hanger, as that is the one time in the game an entire team is surrounded and forced into a poorly defensible position where research grenades are unavoidable. In every other area I think they are fine.

From August 6th

I'm going to +1 this, why?

It's not fun, I want to kill aliens with a challenge, not just wait out hours and hours until they board so you can throw a couple of 9x9 radius nades and murder every single alien. They're supposed to give you a last fucking stand.

I main marine a lot and I use regular fucking nades, not these frankenstein fucking hybrids.

Why the change of heart?

[TeknoKot]

I'm fine with even just banning them from the hanger, as that is the one time in the game an entire team is surrounded and forced into a poorly defensible position where research grenades are unavoidable. In every other area I think they are fine.

From August 6th
Why the change of heart?

Researcher nades were nerfed to the point aliens usually just get stunned by them. They stand back up and run off easily. Though when they were used back then, they dealt massive amounts of damage.

With new updates coming on the nade is more balancing now, still unsure about the radius.

[Joe4444]

I don't recall anything being done about explosive damage.

Explosive damage done to marines? Maybe that was reduced a lot. Because I saw a research grenade go off near two marines who were 2-3 tiles away from it and they didn't get knocked down.

it does crazy damage to marines as well.I got put into crit and nearly died from one before

[Warnipple]

Researcher nades were nerfed to the point aliens usually just get stunned by them. They stand back up and run off easily. Though when they were used back then, they dealt massive amounts of damage.

With new updates coming on the nade is more balancing now, still unsure about the radius.

It still does massive damage.

50% hp to Elite Empress with guard phermones.

[Feweh]

Ya, it's seriously over-powered.

[Nubs]

Getting instantly killed by daisy chained research nades blowing the entire hive up the second the rasp lands on the sulaco is not ok. I'm going with other posters in only allowing research nades on the planet, as well as preventing them from being used in assemblies.

[Scrat505]

Well if you ban research nades, you might as well just remove Research and the Researcher job. I think it'd be poor to remove literally the only useful thing the Researcher can do besides clone and still expect them to do something. Just remove researcher and add another doctor slot.

[Fiodoss]

My opinion instakill is bad for multiplayer
So grenades must be nerfed in order to !!balance!!

[KingKire]

Alright since i tend to make a ton of research grenades, ill put in my comments for some facts, because i can see some people have some misinformation.

There are two common grenades that the researcher makes, the 60x60 and the 120x120 water/potassium mix:

Damage: ill do a percentage scale, and the target is a marine at full health
(* Note: young aliens tend to be at a marines health or higher. Older aliens tend to have twice to 3 times that health bar)

Range: 1 tile is 1 meter

Stuns: all grenades stun the full radius of the explosion, and the stun is the same no matter the grenade if i remember correctly. If i remember, the stun time is 4-5ish seconds.

► Show Spoiler

Standard marine grenade:
Damage: leaves a marine at about the 40-60% health mark
Range: 1.5m ( thats a 1 square tile all around.)

60X60:
Damage: about 40-60%, all brute damage, no fractures. This is orange-red health
range: 2.5m( 2.5 squares out from origin)

120x120:
Damage: about 40-60%, all brute damage, no fractures. This is orange-red health
range: 4.5m ( 4.5 squares out from origin)

300x300: very rare
damage: about 60-80%, all brute damage, no fractures. This is deep red health, but not critical
range: 10-13m ( its been a long time since i used one, but they tend to follow a linear scale on size radius)

Chem dispensers: they can produce 400 units worth of liquid, and recharge at about 4 units every 3ish ticks.
Glass beakers: making large glass beakers tends to take up alot of glass, 10x the amount as regular beakers, so tend to be very inefficient use of the limited amount of glass available compared to normal 60x60's. They also require the use of an autolathe to make.

So instakilling aliens with one grenade is impossible, it takes 2 to kill a young alien, and multiple grenades to killer higher tier/age aliens, no matter the size of the grenade. Its also impossible to crit a marine with 1 grenade.

Personally, i think grenade explodions should be reduced or negated when going through walls, and that would solve alot of issues with their use. I would also be fine if they couldnt be used in the hanger, scince i would find that a cheesy thing to do. I dont think they should be removed, as they already tend to cost a significant amount of resources/time to make them on any sort of a consistant basis.

[EMT_321]

This is an asinine suggestion which thoroughly removes any real reason for the researcher job because aliens are not being strategic/bias on their behalf.

Nades were already banned in the hangar. Stop nerfing marines as a reflexive move, please.

[MrJJJ]

If you got a problem with nades, look at your own abilities and stop complaining, you have spitter memes, very fast screech, hunter pounces that last long and can recharge fast, almost guaranteed 5+ second disarms, preety high slash power when mature/elite, nests which are preety much gg if build properly, a carrier that dishes out huggers that either stun you for long time, or if they removed, do damage to you, which eventually forces you to get the fuck back, and etc etc

Seriously, the 9x9 researcher nades are cupcakes compared to your own abilities

[TheSpoonyCroy]

Chem dispensers: they can produce 400 units worth of liquid, and recharge at about 4 units every 3ish ticks.

Actually a starting chem dispenser can dispense 1000u worth of matter since the charges taken out is the desired amount divided by 10 so 40u = 4 charges. So a minmaxey reseracher can probably pump out 12 or so 120x120 grenades their first hour and around maybe 20 in the next hour (which continues for the next hour if this is what they are 100% focused on), maybe more since with a full chem dispenser you can pump out 8.33 grenades quite easily (If you are wondering how I got 8.33 its 100/12, and if you are asking why its only 12 instead of 24, why use water from the dispenser? Just use a sink upstairs). Also Buckets are only 125 metal and they are 120u so they are more effective at grenade production than glass beakers.

-snip-

I think you are not understanding the issue here. The whole discussion on this topic isn't on where research nades should be banned (even though that is the title) its mostly for the use on the ship and hangar since at hangar there is no way to counter that shit. The researcher sets up lets say 8 or so grenades on remote detonators. Place them all around the rasp before it lands and well congratulation you just wiped out X>30% hive in one fell swoop and many of the surviving xenos are at <70% health. They have no way to defend against such tactic unless they decide to metagame it where all the xenos stay at the exact center of the ship. Also spitters have been nerfed and people seem to think you should be able to 1v1 xeno, which you shouldn't...

[MrJJJ]

I think you are not understanding the issue here. The whole discussion on this topic isn't on where research nades should be banned (even though that is the title) its mostly for the use on the ship and hangar since at hangar there is no way to counter that shit. The researcher sets up lets say 8 or so grenades on remote detonators. Place them all around the rasp before it lands and well congratulation you just wiped out X>30% hive in one fell swoop and many of the surviving xenos are at <70% health. They have no way to defend against such tactic unless they decide to metagame it where all the xenos stay at the exact center of the ship. Also spitters have been nerfed and people seem to think you should be able to 1v1 xeno, which you shouldn't...

You know what else you can't counter? ancient spitter memes, queen screech (which often is you trying to run away and hope to god you can do that as you are getting blocked) and fuckton of huggers coming repeatedly at you, damaging the face repeatedly if removed, combat nesting and if you are fighting a hunter, even as 2-3 people, pounce memes (which honestly isint really much that big compared to others, even at elite/ancient levels, still preety huge stun...), oh and FF.
These all things happen ALWAYS, when you join the round, you know its gonna be there no matter what, researchers? its a rare chance to get a competent one, who can place these many successfull grenades, and then proceed to probably have marines destroy the shuttle xeno team, and even then, good luck killing like, 14+ xenos, all of which take quite a lot of bullets to fully murder, or if there is any eggs there that didint got destroyed by nades.